Sap freezing in large tanks/totes

[Pete S]

I'm still snoopin' around for a CHEAP tank to use for storing sap. I've been looking for an old milk tank (cheap....good luck) or a plastic tote/ tank, etc.

BUT up to this point we've used rubbermaid garbage cans. There has been a few times we had two BIG "sap-cicles", but were able to thaw out and then discard a good portion of the ice.

BUT,..........if I have a tank, and the sap freezes,..........has this ever created a source of frustration for any of you tank users?

Thanks!
Pete

[Valley View Sugarhouse]

freezing tanks should not create a problem, if you boil everything in a day or two.. if it has some ice, throw the ice out, "poor mans RO" if the whole tank is freezing, I would say, you need to process the sap a little quicker, invest in some heat tape, or a heated room.. Just my 2 cents..

[OGDENS SUGAR BUSH]

TSC makes a nice 100 gal. sq poly tank it has worked good for me

RICH

[tuckermtn]

I have found that if the sap freezes in the tank, it typically doesn't freeze completely- and you can break the ice berg in half and reasonibly easily chuck the ice out...

[brookledge]

Another way to look at ice is that it helps keep the sap cool. So if you want to keep the sap cooler then leave the ice in there and on a day when its warmer it will melt while keeping the sap cooler.
Or as already said break the ice up and chuck it. As the sap freezes the sugar continues to concentrate. So as long as it isn't frozen solid the ice you dump should be basicly water.
Keith

[Haynes Forest Products]

why does a popsicle freeze and not seperate from the sugar?

[Valley View Sugarhouse]

it does to a point, you have never noticed the center is sweeter then the ousiude?? it could also be that a popsicle is saturated with sugar, like salt water when it gets cold enough it will freze, but not at 32 f

[OGDENS SUGAR BUSH]

that is a question for the popsicle forum

RICH

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

If you have a valve on the tank, it will likely freeze and bust if the sap freezes too much.

[Sugarmaker]

Just checked the Popsicle forum and they said get the H - - K out of here!Darn syrup folks trying to stir things up in the wonderful full world of Popsicles AGAIN:)

Chris

[OGDENS SUGAR BUSH]

no sense that everything should run smooth on their forum:rolleyes:

RICH

[tiggy-at-mac.com]

I have a couple tanks that sometimes freeze overnight if I've not processed all the sap. I use a $20 stock tank heater to thaw them out - a luxury you have if you have electricity out in the shack. For the plumbing parts, I use that heat tape stuff that you use to thaw pipes. Works beauty, but you need to remember to turn it off once things melt, otherwise your bacteria colonies will love you. -tig

[Tomahawk]

I have the same question:

Some of my buckets will freeze solid. So, it makes me wonder, when chucking ice, am I throwing away usable sap?

Some reassurance from the "pros" here would be comforting.

Thanks.

[Haynes Forest Products]

Its a simple test just save a bucket full of ice you intended to throw away and let it melt and either cook it down or check with the sap hydrometer. Please check back with results and lets put this controversy to rest.

[Tomahawk]

Its a simple test just save a bucket full of ice you intended to throw away and let it melt and either cook it down or check with the sap hydrometer. Please check back with results and lets put this controversy to rest.

Being just a "hobbist," that's a little past my capabilities as I don't own a hydrometer.

But, knowing mapletrader as I do, one of the more experienced maplers, will provide some answers.

Thanks!

[Acer]

If the water molecules have sufficient time to arrange themselves they will exclude sugars and maple goodness from the ice as it forms.

This is how the water is removed from that can of frozen oj in your freezer.

http://books.google.com/books?id=QDpi_6VnhegC&pg=PA380&lpg=PA380&dq=juice+freeze+concentrate+brix&source=bl&ots=1k2dm-0LVG&sig=2iCCnjPxJu8UNr2VFOaUHBCCZlE&hl=en&ei=QDKgSbPNFZa5twfJ7IScDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=6&ct=result

It is a viable way to concentrate sap, but the energy input is higher than that required for RO. Also you have to "do something" with the tons of ice formed during concentrating.

D

[Tomahawk]

If the water molecules have sufficient time to arrange themselves they will exclude sugars and maple goodness from the ice as it forms.

This is how the water is removed from that can of frozen oj in your freezer.

http://books.google.com/books?id=QDpi_6VnhegC&pg=PA380&lpg=PA380&dq=juice+freeze+concentrate+brix&source=bl&ots=1k2dm-0LVG&sig=2iCCnjPxJu8UNr2VFOaUHBCCZlE&hl=en&ei=QDKgSbPNFZa5twfJ7IScDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=6&ct=result

It is a viable way to concentrate sap, but the energy input is higher than that required for RO. Also you have to "do something" with the tons of ice formed during concentrating.

D

So, by "sufficient time" I would assume that a slower freeze, or even an intermittent freeze (cold nights) would be suffcient for the right process to take place?

Or could you assume that a chunk of floating ice (as opposed to frozen solid) has already had the time to make the process to take place?

Or am I splitting hairs? As in, "chuck the (floating) ice already Tomahawk, you can't lose!"

[glassman]

i believe you do lose a certain amount of sugar when throwing out ice. on a small scale the loss would be substantial, but, in a large scale operation tossing the ice would most likely be the best bet.

[OGDENS SUGAR BUSH]

I Have Seperated The Ice And Then Melted It Down. The Sugar Content Was .5 And The Concentrate Was Usually 3.5 Or Better

Rich

[lew]

We leave the ice in our tanks. Warmer weather is always around the corner and the ice helps keep the incoming sap cooler and therefor keeps the bacteria from growing as quickly. However, bacteria will continue to grow (slowly) even in the ice. I have seen my ice left in the tank turn yellow if left for an extended period of time (over a week). this will infect your incoming sap even though it is keeping it cooler. I guess I just look at ice like any tool. It works great if you use it properly. In other words, leave the ice in the tank for up a week. toss it after that.

[sawyer40]

I have ice in my ss bulk tanks right now and tommorrow it will be in the 50s. I always leave it to keep the sap cool. I have 3 bulk milk tanks and the one I collected last sunday was still running at 5:00 in the afternoon. Now it is frozen with about 30 gal and looks to have ice 3-4" thick. It's thurday today the sap has not run all week but it's giong to be 50 tommorrow. I also have the sap about 60 gal from that tank I collected on sunday at my sugar house and have not boiled it yet. It also is frozen and I won't boil it til I get more to put with it. My evaporator is oil fired and will just get haeted up and boilling good and I will run out of sap with 60 gal. More towards the end of march when the end is near I will boil smaller amounts but right now I'm trying to save a little fuel and the weather has been good and cold to save sap.
I would leave the ice in the sap but thats just me. After this weekend I will clean the bulk tank at my sugar house that has held the sap all week to kill any bacteria.

[maple sapper]

I keep all ice for keeping sap cool myself. I also have melted ice down in a 5 gal quantity and got .6% sugar. To me its not worth boiling. I use 5 gal pails on some trees that cant be piped direct. They freeze usually thick on top and really thin on the sides and the interior is totally open. So, I punch a hole in the top and pull it up with my finger (which is rally hard due to a vacumme. The ice crystals are actually cool to look at. The piece of ice thats pulled out looks like a bucket once you flip it over. I also place that tek foil over a huge pile of snow so i have snow till mid april for warm days when I need some place to cool sap.

[tessiersfarm]

There was a study on ice and sap posted last year on this post and up to 30% ice or so the sugar content doesn't freeze much but beyond that there is a lot of sugar captured in the ice formation. I throw away the ice that has formed over the top of my buckets unless they are frozen too deep then I throw it in the bulk tank to keep it cold. I have never had a bulk tank freeze solid but I would keep it for a June boil if you can keep it frozen, just think of the publicity that would be.

[sawyer40]

That would be something It's 90-100 degrees here in June.

[maple flats]

Heat tapes will not create problems with bacteria. Heat tapes only run when the temps are below a specific number, the onesa I have used at my apartment houses turn on at 36 F and then off when the temp gets about 2 degrees higher. These are good sap storing temps. They do not run all of the time they are plugged in unless you have an occasional faulty theromstat. The thermostats are built into the tape, I do not think they can be serviced.