sap ladders

[Spike]

I have a 1in main line 2000ft. long no wet /dry. I will have 700 taps on it. Need to add a few ladders. What can I expect my vac levels to be at the ladders ? How can I build it? My vac is liquid ring 33cfm.

[tuckermtn]

are the ladders further up in the bush (if so, how many taps "upstream"?) or are they at the bottom? 700 taps would call for a lot of lines...I think the rule of thumb is one vertical 5/16" per 10 taps. 70 verticals , if you used stars, would mean more than 10 stars...yikes

we also do not use a wet/dry two line system...and above our ladder we have 20" hg where we have 22"hg at the releaser...

[Spike]

700 taps are whats there now. Only 100 would be on ladder . Are you using a booster? How did you build yours? Out of what materials. I understand the thiery, just not sure what to use. I like to run 26 at releaser, It would be nice to see 22-24 at ladder, Is that possible?

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

post edited

[Brian Ryther]

Why is the dry line largher than the wet. Are you removing a greater volume of sap or gas from the trees?

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

Looks better that way :cool: I've got an reasonable explanation/but i'd like to hear from the experts :D

[Russell Lampron]

Both sap and vacuum are in the dry line between manifolds so there has to be enough room for the vacuum above the sap. The wet line is dedicated to only getting sap back to the releaser so it doesn't have to have a space for vacuum.

[Brian Ryther]

If the sap line is full of sap, say between a few small sags, Down stream is high vac, up stream is high vac, then in the middle are you fighting vac loss between sags. Wouldn't it be better to oversize the sap line, to allow vac transfer above the sap level in the tube. The dry would then be for the extra gass extraction and would not need to be much larger than say 3/4" for <2,000 taps.

[paul]

It would be best if there were no sags

[Brian Ryther]

It is not a perfect world. What is tight this year may not be as tight next year. I also deal with a lot of flat land = man made slope.

[paul]

Brian

the tighter you have your main line the less problems you`ll have. less freezing, less bacteria, and better flow to your releaser= more sap and better syrup. Just my 2 cents

[Brian Ryther]

I think you guies are missing my point. My system is tight. I do not have sags. My question was a what if? I am trying to close an information gap. With a wet dry, it is recomended to have a smaller wet then dry. If the wet is flooded, it will have high vac above the flooded line and below the flooded line (at the releaser). When you are running a single conductor and you have a flooded line you have vac loss above the flooded section of line. My question is with a wet dry system and the wet is flooded wont the sap in the middle of the line be confused. Will gravity overcome all? Even on shallow pitch? I know the vac is not for moving the sap, but we have all seen how sap is influnced by the vac.

[Russell Lampron]

Brian I think know what you are asking. The wet line does rely on gravity somewhat to keep the sap moving in the right direction. If the wet line becomes flooded ie full pipe coming in to the releaser there is room for the excess sap. If the dry line has too much sap in it you need to increase the size of the wet line to handle the capacity.

[Big maple]

I watched a wet/dry line system work and the best I can explain it iswith your dry line you are giving the main line a vent vor the gasses so instead of the slugs and chugs it pours out of the wet line like a garden hose running. The difference is like tipping a gallon jug upside down watching it chug and then poking a vent hole in the bottom. After I had to see it work to understand why they started to push this at first Ithought tubing sales were just lagging but it does work well.

[Brian Ryther]

I like the gallon jug explanation. That make sense to me. Now I need to spend more money on dry lines. I did not have dry lines last year and know how the single conductor lines chug at the releaser. I still need more explination of why the larger dry vs the smaller wet. I still think you would want an over sized wet to allow for vac transfer over the sap level in the wet tube.

[maplecrest]

if you have a good tight system and watch the sap comming in the wet line there will be no air, just slow moving sap into the releaser. the wet line has vented out all the air. in the am or when sap is peaking or getting started you will see sap comming down the wet line. the tighter the system, the higher the vac level,the slower the sap moves in a full pipe.

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

Whats Theeeeeron's idea on this??

[Big maple]

I was told the dry liline has to be equal to or greater than your wet line because the tree produces more gasses than sap.

[Haynes Forest Products]

My releaser is on top of my bulk tank and that puts the intake at about 5 ft. and thats about 2 1/2 ft higher than my main lines that come down the hill and flats. I have the lines come up to the releaser at a fairly steep incline. Should I have sap ladders at this spot.

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

Haynes,
I have a similar situation. I constructed a PVC manifold for the mainlines to enter into. On the lower end of the manifold I put a 1" connector and just ran 1" black plastic up to the re leaser. It worked for about 550 total taps coming from 2 mainlines. A second connection to the re leaser might be a good idea to maximize vacuum flow.

[brookledge]

Haynes
Can you lower the tank? If not You may want to have a tee in the mainline with a flapper valve (like on your releaser)on one end and the other end of the tee up to your releaser. That way when you shut the vac off any sap that is still trickling down the mainline can drain out the flapper on the tee and into your tank. And as soon as you turn on the vac the flapper valve will close.
With out doing something like that if the sap can freeze at the end of the line and create a problem for you.
Freezing in general is a possible problem with many sap ladders. It is important to keep the vac on until every thing freezes up.
Also in the case of no power or a problem with your vac pump your pipeline will still run gravity into the tank
Keith

[Haynes Forest Products]

I cant lower the tank its on bed rock. Freezing has never been a problem. I dont think I have ever had a split in a line. With the flapper as a safety to dump sap at the mainline what keeps it from opening if the pump runs out of fuel. I try and keep the pump running past the freeze up and then shutting down. In the morning sap will be free flowing into the releaser. I wonder if Im better off with a totaly vertical lines running up to the releaser or a bunch of sap ladders. Has anyone ever insulated thair ladders/

[brookledge]

Haynes
If the pump ran out of fuel you would want the flapper that I'm talking about to open so the sap can run gravity into the tank instead of having to push itself up into the releaser and then into the tank.
I guess what I was trying to explain is to have a bypass at your releaser should something happen.
So lets say the pump runs out of fuel, why would you want the sap now running by gravity to have to climb vertically 2.5 feet to get into the releaser when you can build a cheap bypass so it just empties into the tank.
Keith

[Haynes Forest Products]

OK I see what you ment a diverter to bypass the releaser. You only have one line into the manifold from the diverter. I can make that out of a PVC check valve mounted down in the tank so gravity will keep it open without vacuum

[jrthe3]

ok i got my vac pump today and here is my sap ladder ? i have a ladder about 1500 feet from releaser then after the ladder there is 1000 feet of mainline can i put a booster after the sap ladder

[OGDENS SUGAR BUSH]

you sure can

RICH

[jrthe3]

i know about the star ladder but does anyone know what size pipe to number of taps should be used in the two pipe style ladder

[maplwrks]

To go along with this---Does any one have pictures of a 2 pipe ladder? I think I understand how they work, would like to see one.

[Russell Lampron]

Mike do a search, type in "vertical pipe sap ladder" click on "show post" and it should bring up the pictures of the one that ennismaple built. I am going to build one similar to that myself.