Plastic tubing and maple quality

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[Brian Ryther]

Gov.
Keep the articles coming. I enjoy reading anything maple related. The info you get from the trader you must decide what is usefull and what is not. The studies that you are posting are scientific with emperical evedence that back the findings. Good stuff. Thanks
Brian

[Beweller]

Thanks for posting.

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[Beweller]

Hmmm. Hard to see an application at this point. Any advance in the following 20 years?

I remember the key word RAXYL for pentose sugars, but I no longer recall what the letters stand for!

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[Beweller]

The work was done before the interaction between taps was recognized. Comparing two taps in one tree most likely exaggerated the gain through pumping.

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[markcasper]

Kevin....Do you have any research papers in regards to taking out non-maple species that are side by side with a maple. What would you do? Take out the maple to save two very good oak? Logic would suggest to leave the oak. Sentiment suggests leaving the maple. What to do, what to do.

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[Cardigan99]

Gov.

When's the test? I've only gotten thru half the material :)

Keep em coming. Way better than what's on the tube.

[paul]

Mark

That should be a nobrainer. Youv`e got an oak growing next to a maple, you cut the oak down and use it to boil the sap from the maple.

[markcasper]

Well the forester advised it and he IS pro tapping and sugarbush. They are two potential veneer quality oaks 12-14dbh. Sandwiched in between is the maple and that is a so-so tree, nothing grand. He could not see losing the 2 oaks for the one maple. I might add these trees are all 1o feet of each other.

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[Cardigan99]

Crammin as we speak!

[TapME]

can I get a cheat sheet gov?

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[Beweller]

How does this match with more recent work? I have the memory(?) of dye injection experiments showing lateral movement. Also, many reports that a second tap reduces the flow in the first tap--and never that two taps run twice as much sap as one tap.

Anyone ?

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[Beweller]

What is that maple worth? Per other posts the going rate on renting a tree is something like 30 cents. Assuming 70 trees per acre, the rental is $21 per acre. Assuming a 6 percent return, the value of the tree and the land it sits on is about $5, or $350 per acre.

Cut the maple. In fact, given a 30 cent rental, it is hard to see how owning a sugar bush can be justified. Let some other sucker own it and you rent his trees.

[markcasper]

30 cents a tap is mockery to a landowner. If I rented the trees, it would be much higher than that. A fairly well stocked stand with 70 80 taps an acre should bring around a dollar a tap. With farmland renting at 80-100 dolars an acre, the taphole rental rate should be close to the same.

5 years ago I paid 1 dollar/tap, that was for 4% sugar trees. I would have no problem offering 2 dollars today, if I returned to this landowner. Many will say how much a producer has to spend on equipment, labor, fuel. They then justify .30 a tap because of their incurred costs. Guess what....thats not the landowners problem who owns the trees. Why should he get the short end of the stick. You have to pay what their worth or you won't have them to tap. Always, always go the extra mile and be nice to secure your tapping future.

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[Beweller]

Tree rental should be subject to free market forces. The problem a tree owner faces is that the market appears to be very thin. He does not get many (any?) offers from producers to rent. So the producer can get away with offering less than the economic rent.

No, I don't expect very many producers to offer more than the going rate, but there is a consequence. The tree owner is not going to do much if anything to maintain the health and productivity of the bush. More likely the owner will decided to manage his acreage for timber. Over time the number of trees--and the quality of trees-- available to rent will decrease. It is in the long run to your advantage to pay a reasonable rental, and to key that rental to the condition and productivity of the bush.

Think of your own bush. How much do you have invested in land and trees? What are your expenses associated with that land and those trees? What do you think would be a reasonable return on that investment? I will bet it is nothing like 30 cents.

Many posters speak of obtaining a half-gallon of syrup or more per tap. That represents an income of maybe $30. The 30 cent rental represents 1 percent of that income stream.

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[Brian Ryther]

OK Gov. I am starting to question many of the standard practices that might be considered standard. 4" tap hole depth? One vac tap hole does not affect the another on the same tree, unless it is 1/8" away? Vac does not affect sugar % above 23"? Whats next, 4" dbh is ok to tap?

[TapME]

This new paper or study sure opens the door to the way that I have taped. I sure am thinking of going a little deeper say 3'' to 3 1/2''.

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[tyrod2]

How does this match with more recent work? I have the memory(?) of dye injection experiments showing lateral movement. Also, many reports that a second tap reduces the flow in the first tap--and never that two taps run twice as much sap as one tap.

Anyone ?

Something wrong with my maple trees, some of my trees do not know this. On a good sap run the trees that I have two buckets on, both buckets are full to the brim. How can this happen?

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[Beweller]

But we are not really interested in sap. We are interested in SUGAR. Multiply the two dependent variables, and the central 4 zones all produce about the same amount of sugar--about 65 (gallons)*(%). The first and last zones drop off.

When in years past I did a regression and got an R squared less than maybe 0.85, I was very worried. Of course, I was dealing with physical systems, not biological. Still, an R squared of 0.43? A major uncontrolled variable is genetics.

Note that if the first and fifth zones are rejected as outliers, a straight line is a pretty good fit.

TYROD2: But how much would you have gotten with a single tap? One bucket, or perhaps a bucket and a quarter?

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[Beweller]

Sounds like these guys did a better job of maintaining aseptic conditions than Morselli and Whalen.

From Wilmont's 2008 note, I had concluded that aseptic tapping was not a worthwhile objective, but this report suggests maybe it is worthwhile.

Now, what's the chances of coming up with a tapping/collection method that we could live with in the bush, and that accomplished most of what Naghski and Willits did.

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[Valley View Sugarhouse]

What was the time spans they received from the two diff tapping procedures?? I feel up here our sugar season always ends sooner then what you can do without aseptic tapping procedures..

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

Not sure if i understand your moose calling?? Sounds like you want to know how long the study took place?? I think it was about 4-6 weeks in length. Mainly i figure the tree gives up before the taphole is that what your calling?

[Beweller]

Maple Hill,

That info on the gas from tap holes sounds interesting. Half a pint per hour must be comparable to the sap flow rate--and I suppose that gas volume is measured at standard conditions. It would be 4-5 times that volume with a good vacuum.

Sap ladders won't work with out a gas flow--although leaked air would do as well as gas from the tree.

Do you suppose you could find the report?

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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The Gov

[TapME]

Gov, do you have anything on size of tap hole and yield? I'm talking about a 5/16 vs a 7/16 not on vac. Thanks

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[Beweller]

Maple Hill,

Just want to be sure--That's 0.19 percent--NOT 19 percent?

[Beweller]

Maple Hill,

While I'm at it, was the balance carbon dioxide? No nitrogen? Maybe some methane?

[TapME]

Gov, yes that is in the line that I was thinking. size of hole vs sap yield. Thanks. wanted to know because most of our taps are going to be 5/16 this year and wanted to know if we need to find more trees to make up any difference, and you answered that.

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[Beweller]

With 19 percent oxygen it sounds like air. With no air "leak" the carbon dioxide and oxygen should total to 20.9 percent, assuming the carbon dioxide came from metabolism of carbohydrate. I wonder if the air "leaked" through the tree/wood, or leaked at the tap. Is the report accesible on the web? If so, do you have the URL?

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[OGDENS SUGAR BUSH]

thuoght i missed something GOV. very good article looks like small adapters for me this year.

RICH

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[adk1]

I friend of mine is old time still. Their mainline are sections of galvanized pipe or hell maybe its even tin. I dont know.