Running laterals

[Amber Gold]

I'm going to be setting up one of my sugarbushes tomorrow. Should be between 150-200 taps off of three mainlines. There was a recent post on running mainline that explained it pretty good, but after looking in the archives for lateral installation I'm still a little unsure what to do. I've got 1/2" and 3/4" mainline to use. One of the runs will have about 30 taps on it, basically a roadside setup. I was going to run the 1/2 mainline for that with the star fitting. I may/may not have vacuum next year, but would like to plan for it. I looked and didn't see a saddle fitting for 1/2" line so am going to use the star fittings I have. How well will these hold up to vacuum? The other side of the road has more trees and I'm going to run the 3/4" line with saddles. Off of this line I'm going to tee off to grab a bunch of trees that are up the hill.

If I remember correctly you can put 5-7 taps per lateral. In my research of running laterals, if I read it correctly, it said to start at a tree near the mainline, anchor the lateral either with a y or something and then install and leader end ring connector on the final tree and pull tight, then go back and install the drops. This makes sense if all the trees on the lateral are in a straight line, but what if they zig-zag. I was thinking it made more sense to connect to the mainline with the hook connector, go to the 1st tree install the drop, go to the next install the next drop, and so on until you get to the last when you'll install the end line fitting with final drop. Also looking at the tees I noticed there's a hole in them. Is that for mounting the tee to the tree and do you use a nail (roofing nail or something similiar) or run a wire through it around the tree?

Does anyone have a better explanation of installing laterals from start to finish? Am I on the right track?

Also if/when I start using vacuum I'm going to want to cross the dirt path at the bottom to get both sides of the roadside trees connected to the vacuum and get them to drop into the same collection tank. It would need to be taken down every year. I was thinking of using a star fitting on both sides and running however many tubing runs across the road to get the capacity I'd need. I figure it's only 15' across and I'd be sacrificing 30' of tubing a year for that purpose. Does anyone have a better idea?

Thanks in advance.

[halfast tapper]

. I first run the tubing all the way from the end tree to the mainline, use a y or and endline fitting and run the tubing around the tree and connect back on to the y or endline fitting. This makes a loop around the end tree, leave enough slack for growth of tree. Then I run the tubing down hill to the mainline trying to keep within the 5-10 taps rule. I put a saddle in the mailine and use a mainline hook. I hook up a 1 foot piece of tubing to the saddle and add the mainline hook on the end. Then I take my tubing tool and clamp one side onto the short piece of tubing by the mainline hook , then I pull my lateral line tight and clamp it into the other side of the tool. I then cut the tubing and press it on to the mainline hook. Then hook the hook to the mailine wire. Then I go and cut my drops in. I can do almost 200 in about 6 hours , as long as the mainline is up and no problems occur.

[PATheron]

Josh- Way I do it is go to the last tree on the lateral. Try to run them 5 or7 but 10 max. Try to keep them from excessive crisscrossing, if they are going to do that, run two of them. Ok, your at the last tree. Use an endline hook,or y if you want, and attach to that tree. Then weave in between the trees for the lateral till you get to the main. Always attach the lateral to the main with a hook connestor or something so you never go directly to your saddle or star or whatever. Pull the line nice and snugg and hook it on the wire. Then go to each tree with a two handed tool and install each drop. You cut a little out of the lateral at each drop and that makes it even a little tighter. Then make a little jumper at the mainline and hook it to the saddle, star. If you dont have a two handed tool try to get one. Really need one bigtime. Where you cross the road just use a piece of mainline instead of the stars and T or preferably y into the mains and just hook and unhook one end or buy the quick disconnects. I assume you are laying it on the ground. The industry is kind of avoiding using .5" on vac but that said Ive used mine up in my bush to reduce long lats in places and itll work good on small amounts of taps like your saying but if your buying new pipe always buy .75 minimum. Theron

[Amber Gold]

OK. So if I'm reading this correctly start at the last tree, install the end fitting and run a straight run of tubing back to the mainline. I guess you're relying on the trees to hold the lateral tight until you go back to cut the drops in.

For the 3/4" line I have the saddles with the hook connector. For the 1/2" I just have the star fitting. I have a 2-handed tool for tubing, but not for mainline. What's the best way to connect mainline without a tool? Doing irrigation work we used to use the same type of black water pipe and would just use a torch to heat it up and pop the fitting on. Is this acceptable for this application?

When would a 1-handed tubing tool be use?

Thanks for the help guys.

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

Yup, start at the last tree and go from there to your mainline zig zagging around your trees as you go to keep the line tight. I sometimes include a small tree that won't be tapped for a few years in this run so it can be added in easily later. Go back and cut the drops in to tighten it more. Don't be afraid to cut out a few inches someplace, as long as you don't crimp it, it is never too tight.
Connecting the mainline together. I have used the torch but it is easy to overheat the line. I use hot water, or during warm weather, a young, strong, Amish man who is able to push them together without heating. Use a ratchet, not a screwdriver to tighten the clamps.
Doug

[sapman]

Thanks for the advice, guys! And thanks Josh, for asking! I'm getting ready to start doing some of this myself.

One caution on the clamps, though. Yes, definitely don't use a screwdriver. Good way to end up with it in your finger at times. But with a ratchet, I'd be afraid of stripping them easily. I like the Craftsman nutdrivers from Sears. Nice, big handle, and I've stripped many clamps just with that, too.

Tim

[Haynes Forest Products]

Why do you still use the screw clamps when you can use the crimp clamps that are faster and dont leak and wont strip.

[Amber Gold]

I got a start flagging my trees and ran out of flagging. I had 300' of blue that I used to designate 1-tap trees and 150' pink to designate 2-tap trees. I figure I've flagged about 130 taps worth of trees and probably have maybe double that by the time I'm done. More than I was expecting, which is always good. I thought flagging all the trees out first would help in laying out the mainline and laterals.

I spoke to one of my neighbors and unfortunately he wants me to take down the lines the are on his property every year, but he will allow me to connect to his electric to use a vacuum pump. There's only about 30-50 taps worth of tubing and mainline I'll need to take down every year so it won't be too big of a deal. So provided I afford a pump and releaser before next season I'll likely be going that route as well.

I'll try the hot water trick out. Unfortunately over here in NH there's no strong, young amish men around, just me and I don't think I count.

I have a battery drill with a 1/4" drive bit adapter that I use to put hose clamps on. It's quick and easy.

It's been raining all day so I'm thinking today the only thing I'll be getting accomplished is getting the trees flagged.

Tim, I can't believe you run 500 taps on buckets. It must take you forever each day to empty all those and boil it all.

Thanks for all the help.

[sapman]

Josh,

Yes, it's quite a chore with the buckets. I did get an RO this year, so that certainly helps on the boiling. We actually ran about 630 this year, and another 70 on tubing. I'm trying to get more bushes on tubing, but getting permission is tough around here.

Haynes, I'm not sure about the crimps you refer to. I use crimps on pex tubing, but haven't seen them for standard water pipe yet. Maybe something new that's not back east yet?

Tim

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[Maplewalnut]

Josh,

I owe everyone here that responded to my posts over the last few weeks about 50 posts to help the tubing newbies like myself. After a couple weeks of running tubing for the first time, here is what I have found.

Try the slide manifolds. They connect to your mainline wire instead of the hook connector. They are reusable and you can tighten your lateral without taking off the fitting

If you need to take down lines try, the end of the line hook connector instead of a 'Y' for your laterals. Then you won't be reinstalling and cutting tubing every year.

Keep your mainline tight and use side ties. It may give the mainline a slight zig zag appearence but it gets it tight tight tight.

Tubing tool in my mind is a must. I was hesiatnt to buy one but now won't be without one.

Feel free to PM me with any little questions and I'll try to help.

Mike

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[Amber Gold]

I’m getting a pretty good idea now how to run both main line and laterals. Thanks for all the input.

Mike, thanks for the offer on the PM. I might take you up on that. What thread are you talking about. I'd like to read it.

On the slide ring fitting, does it allow you to adjust the tension on the lateral by creating a bigger loop between the saddle and the fitting?

How do you guys account for a change in grade in the mainline? If I run the mainline where I’m thinking I will there’s a change in grade from 1-2&#37; to 5%+/-. Also why do you want the mainline <5%? Wouldn’t steeper be better?

[Maplewalnut]

Josh-

Maple Guys have the slide fitting I am referring to on their site. Something like $0.40 each. It is like a sleeve cut in half. You attach the bottom half to the guidewire and then place your lateral tubing in the groove. Pull the tubing as tight as you can and then 'slide the top piece in the channel of the lower half and your done. The tubing holds tight. To retighten, unslide the top half and do all over. I pulled the tubing and had my 8 year old slide the top on, its that simple. You then cut your tubing on the downstream side of the fitting to whatever length you want to put your saddle at.

Mike

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[ennismaple]

Josh-

Maple Guys have the slide fitting I am referring to on their site. Something like $0.40 each. It is like a sleeve cut in half. You attach the bottom half to the guidewire and then place your lateral tubing in the groove. Pull the tubing as tight as you can and then 'slide the top piece in the channel of the lower half and your done. The tubing holds tight. To retighten, unslide the top half and do all over. I pulled the tubing and had my 8 year old slide the top on, its that simple. You then cut your tubing on the downstream side of the fitting to whatever length you want to put your saddle at.

Mike

I do mine a little differently. I use wire ties to connect the slide fitting to the mainline wire. Before I pull out the tubing from the mainline to the head tree I figure out where the lateral needs to connect to the mainline and then I loosly twist a 7" wire tie around just the mainline wire. Once I've tensioned the lateral line back to the mainline I pull it as tight as I want it to be and make note of where the lateral meets the mainline, let off enough that I can hold the lateral with one hand, put a slide fitting on and then hook the slide fitting to the 7" wire tie. This way it's a one man show to tension the laterals and my brother cuts in the drops behind me. If the laterals are too loose after the drops are cut in we can move the slide fitting a few inches.

[Amber Gold]

The idea of the steeper grade on the laterals is so that they will drain faster.

Wouldn't the same principle apply to mainlines?

[royalmaple]

The idea with the mainlines is too keep them so they don't flood and bog down the flow, plus you want vacuum transfer in the pipe. Vacuum over sap, full pipe of sap = no vacuum over sap. Blockage somewhere in the pipe = reduced vacuum uphill of the blockage. So with a less steep slope on the mainlines you will get a continuous more even flow. Imagine if you had a mainline going down the face of a hill. then at the bottom you had to flatten it right out because the grade pretty much stopped at the bottom of the hill. What's going to happen inside the pipe to the sap? Your not going to get the same effect in the 5/16 since it's basically going to be full all the time no matter what. If you have a steeper grade you need to increase the pipe size to reduce the chance for filling the pipe.

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

See that the Pirate beat me to the ?. I can't type fast enough.

[Amber Gold]

I think I see a typing class in your future.

I get what you guys mean about the lines filling up at the bottom and not transferring vacuum.

Governor, I was talking with Russ and he said you knew quite a bit about dairy pumps. Do you know what the CFM ratings are for the different size Delaval pumps? Also what is the typical vacuum level of most dairy pumps? 18 inches+/-?

Say I’ve got 300 taps in this sugar bush (figuring in future growth) and I’m going to have 2-3 sap ladders, so based on the 3CFM per 100 taps I’d need a pump to produce 9CFM. Correct?

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[Parker]

Of all the old dairy pumps I have run,I have definatly been happiest with the surge piston pumps,,the SP-11, SP-22 and the BB-4 have all been able to maintain 22" all season (one sp-22 for 3 seasons now),,,In my experiance,,when you start to try to pull over 17" with a vane pump its touch and go,,,,(I have never run a DeLaval so I cant speak for those),,,I will say with the massports- if you run ALOT of fresh oil thru them and have a fan blowing on them it does keep them cooler,,,but its a lot of extra $ and effort......
As for running laterals,,I like to have a pouch full of end rings, a pouch full of connectors with hooks and a one handed tool+pair of clippers,,,,start at the mainline,put the connector in the end of your tubing, attach it to the mainline wire, go straight up the hill with the tubing, get 4-6 taps, attach lateral line to last tree with end ring,,,,,,,move over to the top of the next run,,attach lateral line to tree with end ring,,,go straight down slope picking up 4-6 taps to mainline, attach connector with hook to tubing and hook to wire,,** If there is enough taps I try to make the end of the current tubing run I am working on stop RIGHT where the next lateral mainline uphill is going to go**,repeat process till your out of supplies......like Kevin said, try to be thinking about the next few lateral lines as you go..........I get all the laterals I can up,,then cut in drops,,then do saddels and loops ,,,works for me

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[Amber Gold]

Gotta keep this short because I'm watching my kid...and she's getting into all the pictures...

Russ came over today and things are looking better than I thought. Found yet more trees. I was flagging trees last Sunday in the downpour we got and missed some...It's possible I may get close to 250-300 just off the front side of my hill and he gave me ideas on where/how to run my mainlines. Still have the back side that I may/may not get to this year.

I think vacuum would be good for me here and thought an old dairy pump would be a cheaper alternative to get me started on a limited budget...with all these extra trees to tap and more supplies I need to get and still need to get more equipment before the season. I'd think after a year or two I'd get a liquid ring or similiar pump...more vacuum more sap. Also after walking with Russ, found yet more trees that will be coming online in the next few years.

I just realized that this thread started off as a lateral thread, yet has mostly been about vacuum and it's in the tubing section, not the vacuum section.

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[OGDENS SUGAR BUSH]

makes good reading where ever it is

RICH

[Amber Gold]

Got all my mainline up and all set there. Started running laterals this morning had some questions. I'm using 3/4" saddles, hook connector, tees for drops, and end-of-line ring. Couple of things I've noticed. When going from the hook fitting to the saddle the tubing goes up and back down to get into the saddle. Also when wrapping around the tree using the end-of-line ring the tubing is relatively flat because the ring has to be at the same elevation as the tubing it's sliding on. I'd think these would be two problem areas for sap to stagnate. Is this a concern? Am I doing something wrong? I've only got 2 laterals up so I'm posing the questions now before I get too far ahead.

Thanks

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Josh,

Here's my recommendation which I like best and others will probably shoot it down. Number one, unless you are using vaccum, don't use the end of line rings. They are really bad news especially with large trees as the sap may have to travel several feet around the tree to exit and no way to keep a slope. I like the stanard "Y" and if I am putting 2 taps on the tree, I try to put one on each side of the tree and the closer to the "Y", the better, you may just have to make the drop a little lnoger. I have some monster trees that are 3' or more in diamater that have 4 taps on them on the end of line "Y".

As far as the hook connectors, this is normal and I was like you the first time I used them. There isn't much problem with them as the sap don't have time to sit in them long due to fresh sap pushing it out. Not like the end of line rings which are farthest away from mainline.

What I do is that I bring the tubing in if at all possible which is normally about 95&#37; of the time to a tree close to my mainline and I use the "Y Forks". I like these a lot because they eliminate about all sags and raises in the tubing where it goes into the mainline and also eliminate the bends in the tubing. They are a little more expensive, but well worth it to me. I like the D&G better than the Lappierre.

The end of the line rings are a bad bacteria breeding zone especially on larger trees and then the bacteria infects the entire lateral line, then into mainline, sap storage, you get the picture.

[Amber Gold]

That's what I thought, y fittings for non-vacuum systems and end-of-line for vacuum. I'll have vacuum this year so should be all set. Wanted to make sure I was doing it right before I got too far ahead. Thanks.

[Amber Gold]

Things are going pretty good getting laterals strung out...getting the hang of it and figure at this point I have about 150+/- taps worth of tubing run waiting for drops to be installed. Still another 150 taps worth of tubing to run and drops to install.

I have a situation where tubing will have to drop downhill 1-2’ to get some taps at the end of my lateral. I’ll have vacuum and was wondering if vacuum will have any problems pulling the sap uphill to get into the mainline? I’d think not because I thought I heard/read about mainline being installed overhead and the laterals running up into it. The first 50’ will have proper slope to the mainline, the last 50’ will be sloping the wrong way.

Thanks

[ennismaple]

It's not ideal but it will work. I've got some lines that are dead flat or slope slightly uphill in spots and vacuum will overcome the slope.

[sapman]

I've got a question about running laterals uphill. At what point would you decide to put in a sap ladder instead. Is it a certain number of taps? Is a sap ladder more productive than running the lats uphill?

Thanks,
Tim

[Amber Gold]

Ennis, That's what I thought, wanted to confirm before I strung them out. Thanks.

[dano2840]

i think there is no problem with running lats up hill as long as you use a lvl and MAKE SURE theyre running up hill, i used some star fittings and i did run up hill and the up hill ones ran the same as the down hills, so i dont see a problem with it. as long as yoiu check the slope it may looked sloped but the terain can fool you very easily

[dano2840]

Josh,

Here's my recommendation which I like best and others will probably shoot it down. Number one, unless you are using vaccum, don't use the end of line rings. They are really bad news especially with large trees as the sap may have to travel several feet around the tree to exit and no way to keep a slope. I like the stanard "Y" and if I am putting 2 taps on the tree, I try to put one on each side of the tree and the closer to the "Y", the better, you may just have to make the drop a little lnoger. I have some monster trees that are 3' or more in diamater that have 4 taps on them on the end of line "Y".

As far as the hook connectors, this is normal and I was like you the first time I used them. There isn't much problem with them as the sap don't have time to sit in them long due to fresh sap pushing it out. Not like the end of line rings which are farthest away from mainline.

What I do is that I bring the tubing in if at all possible which is normally about 95% of the time to a tree close to my mainline and I use the "Y Forks". I like these a lot because they eliminate about all sags and raises in the tubing where it goes into the mainline and also eliminate the bends in the tubing. They are a little more expensive, but well worth it to me. I like the D&G better than the Lappierre.

The end of the line rings are a bad bacteria breeding zone especially on larger trees and then the bacteria infects the entire lateral line, then into mainline, sap storage, you get the picture.

if i just dont like the end iof line rings and im using vac is it bad to just use a tee instead of the end of the line rings ? i dont see y they would be but hey im 16 and have been using tubing for 2 years what do i know.....

[Russell Lampron]

DanO I use just the tee or Y fittings for my end line fittings. Darveau makes tees that are blocked off at one end so that the sap doesn't go around the back side of the tree.

[dano2840]

i just use a cup tee dont need the cup but i just put uip the back side higher than where the tee is so that way it all flows through the tee and no dead spots on eather side

[dano2840]

sapman-
do the 14 alpackas pull the gathering tub around or do they do all the logging???????;)

[sapman]

dano,

They still haven't gotten the hang of pulling a sleigh through the woods! Fortunately, their fleece does make the best socks I've had for working outside this time of year, though.

[dano2840]

socks are very important, i like wool mittens but they arent very rugged and seem to fall apart pretty quickly, my mom makes them for me so i try not to use them to much exept for when its really cold out