All the Help I can Get

[The Maple Men]

Hello Everyone,

I am new to this site, but have been making syurp for 7 years. i started with about 50 taps on a backyard operation my first year then to 300 still on a homemade boiler selling most of our sap. then i moved and was reduced to 35 taps for the last 4 years. well this year i was givin the use of a shack that is 16 x 24 with a lightning evap by grimm Model TB35x892 it measures 4' x 12' and it has a piggy back by small bros. and is oil fired . there is als a filter press in the shack with a propane heated canning tank on a stand. this all has not been used in 2 years (it all needs a real real good cleaning) also there is 907 taps that run into the shack on to different lines 1" about 550 on this line and the remainig 357 on the 3/4". we have started working on tightning the mainlines and replacing broken stuff. have alot of questions and i am also pretty excited and hopeful that everything works.

First off. is there some plce i can get directions on the operation of this boiler.

how much sap do i need to run it

how do i get it apart to clean

I would like to know if tit is missing anything.

Ect


Second, if i get all 900 taps fixed about how much sap a day should i get.

Third when the 5/16" tudding was run they started at a tree then went to the next tree and wraped completly around the tree before going to the next one and then they wraped completly around this tree too, and diid this to all the trees they taped. should i take this all down an try to re do it with out the wraping of the trees or will this be ok.

i guess this is a good start for now

Thank You

Adam

[PATheron]

Adam- Is there a vac system there? Pump, releaser, etc. Also, is there an RO machine? Theron

[The Maple Men]

Sorry, No Vac ,Or RO All Gravity and just a pump to get it from a tank on the ground to a tank about 10' in the air to feed the steam away

Adam

[PATheron]

Adam- I dont think that the lines will run very well wrapped around the tree like that. If Im understanding you right about that probly that ought to be corrected. If the lines are graded right and you have a good run day you can figure about a gallon per tap. The only problem I can see with the evap is in this day and age boiling raw sap from the tree with fuel oil is not very profitable. The steam away will help a lot so maybe it will be alright but it would be much better if you had an RO machine. If your boiling with wood its not so bad but the fuel bill may get a little scary. Im not sure how many gph that will boil, one of these other guys probly can tell you. Theron

[Russell Lampron]

The 4x12 will boil off about 150gph stock. The piggyback will give as much as a 75% increase over that. Redo the tubing so that the only tree that is wrapped is the tree at the furthest end of the lateral. This will allow you to tighten the laterals to get sags out. Sags are the biggest killer of sap flow on a gravity system.

[PATheron]

Adam- I dont know what kind of deal you have using the stuff but if you want to do that many taps without an ro I think Id look for a wood arch for the evap and run wood. Then at least you wont have the expense of the fuel. Theres probly lots of them around used. The only way anyone makes any money running fuel oil is by going to pretty high concentration levels with an ro. Thats just the only way itll pay. If you had an ro and put the taps on vac if its tubed pretty decent for it youd have a nice setup there. Theres nothing wrong with how it is now if you swapped out the arch and burnt wood. Youd have a nice size rig for the taps seems to me. You better kind of research the lines though. Go on past posts and see how the lines should be and take a look at how yours are. Anyone that would wrap each tree with the lateral like that may not have been up to speed too good on proper tubing installation. Im not picking on anybody but you want the tube too perform even if its gravity. Theron

[brookledge]

I guess that with the piggy back you should be able to boil about 250/hr.
With raw sap lets say 2.5% that would give you a little over 7 gal of syrup an hr. Now look at the oil burner nozzle to see what the GPH is and that will give you an idea of how much it will cost you to run it and based on the cost of fuel what it will cost to make a gal of syrup.
I'd say that a 4X12 will burn around 18GPH + or -
As for the taps 900 in a good year without vacuum would yeild a quart per tap so figure 225. That gives you an idea of what to expect.
As for the tubing I agee with the others, do not have the tubing toally wrap around each tree. I'd weave around the trees as I go so that the trees actually hold up the lateral line when under tension.
Keith

[royalmaple]

It would be a good idea if you contacted some of the guys on here in your area and went to visit them to see their tubing setup. It will save you alot of work going back and redoing something later on.

Your welcome to come visit if you find yourself over this way anytime.

[3% Solution]

Adam,
What the others are telling you is top shelf info!!!
Now, have you set down and had a talk with all the players; your significant other (if you have one), your help (cause you will need it), your 100% committed help, and above all ......... yourself.
You had 300 taps, now you will have close to 1000.
Are you ready to commit to the work load and long hours at times?
Do you have the time to support this size operation?
If you have all this stuff covered then go for it!!!!
Knock you socks off!!!
More power to you!!!!!
Best of all, all the equipment is there, what a deal!!!!!!
Just remember the fuel is an upfront cost, expensive!!!
I would stay with the oil, it's instant heat, throw the switch and your running!!!
Let us know what you do!!!

Dave

[The Maple Men]

What should i expect to spend on a ro machine. and is there a place to buy them used.
As for time durning the season i should have all the time i need alnog with my partner as we are both self employed. the issue now is getting everything up and working before feb.

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

Welcome to the maple trader! If you go with an RO (and if you stick with oil it is definitely a good idea) you should have a 600-800gallon per hour capacity. Maybe a bit more with the piggyback. They are pretty spendy when new. Probably around 14K. It will definitely pay for itself in both fuel and labor savings. Used ones are available but may need new membranes or pumps rebuilt. These can be very expensive and you would still have a used machine.
Sounds to me like you have an excellent opportunity. I agree with the others, redo the laterals and I would replace the spouts and drop lines while I was at it. All new spouts and laterals will eliminate a lot of the existing bacterial infestation and get you off to a good start.
Good Luck!
Doug

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

With a rig like that, 1,000 taps should be pretty easy if he gets 250 gph boil rate, it should be around 4 hours on an average day of boil time, so I don't think that is that much. I have 500+ taps on a 2x8 with just a preheater, so he can boil off 4 times+ more gph that I can. Give it a try for a year or two before jumping in over your head. So what if you burn $ 68 in oil per hour, you are making $ 280 or more per hour in wholesale price of syrup and retail price would be much higher than that. See how it goes this year and then decide if you want to commit long term and then decide on changes. This is a big step up, don't need to sink $ 15,000 in an RO for 1,000 taps.

[maplecrest]

my first thought is how much money and time do you want to put in an operation you dont own. what is the agreement? what do you have for power at sugar house? 100 amps? r/o.s need power. i would think vacuum, and set up the woods before r/o. that evap with pig pan will avg, 3 gallons of oil to a gallon of syrup.so 1000 taps at a qt per tap is 250 gallons. so thats 750 gallons of oil. at $4 a gallon is $3000. good tight set up with vacuum at 1/2 gallon per tap is 500 gallons of syrup. 1500 gallons of oil, at $4 is 6000. so r/o comes into play. a gallon of oil to a gallon of syrup. so 500 gallons of oil at $4 is $2000. leaving you 4000 to pay for your r/o. you are looking at at least a 3 year pay back. not counting labor and time saved or power used.