Air Injection

[WF MASON]

While at Bascoms looking at the $1000. air injection system , a gentleman
who was also looking at it said , "I'm pretty good at soldering copper pipes , why couldn't I get copper pipe, elbows,tees and caps and make that up for $100 bucks ??? The rev flow pipes are copper in the evaporator next to this one???''
A very good point I thought.

[saphead]

Brad Gillilan from Leader brought up a good and controversial point about air injection,is injecting air into the syrup resulting in adulterated syrup?He said tests show that syrup that has been injected with air actually has a different ph than uninjected syrup! The jury is still out in the state of Vt. on this subject, and Vt. is serious about syrup. I guess certain elements that normally settle in the pans are left suspended in the liquid and not all is filtered out,more testing will be done I'm sure. He also brought up the point about the air filtering prior to injection,is activated charcol an acceptable medium?,etc. We'll have to wait and see.

[Russell Lampron]

The air injection system at Bascom's included a charcoal filter and blower. It was also pointed out to me that the tubes that went into the flue pan were crimped so that they would fit.

Russ

Times of sap and no wood are better than times of wood and no sap

[WF MASON]

Very good point Jeremy, the piggyback or the steamaway both have a blower adding air to the sap,a fact I overlooked.
Maybe once some of the other companys start making their own air injection systems , they'll tell us how good they are.

[Parker]

Hey Jeremey- Easy on our logging brothers and sisters,,,how about when a state truck drives by????????Parker

[Russell Lampron]

The state truck drives by too slowly to disturb anything! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Russ

Times of sap and no wood are better than times of wood and no sap

[WF MASON]

In Jermey's defence Parker, in our area the state trucks stay at the variety store or the donut shop,I'm not sure how they get the trucks there,but I've never ever seen one driving!
Oh, did you ever hear the joke ,''whats big and orange and sleeps three''?

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Here in WV, we no longer have Dept of Highway employees because the Japanese invented a shovel that will stand up by itself and they cost a lot less. :D :D

[strange syrup]

I've often thought about putting an air injection system into the flue pan, but never took the time to try it. but why wouldn't it work the same as a steamaway system, when i've looked into the flue pan the boil in the first few inchs is quite impressive then putting air pipes 6" apart with horizonal holes should help, think i'll try and put one together this summer.

Going back to the post that says , the Leader rep. says air injection changes the PH in the sap/syrup . I didn't know sap had PH, I must of been smoking in the boys room that day at school. What is the PH , he's talking about ??

[brookledge]

It is basicly a symbol used to rate acidity or alkalinty. Just about everything has a ph. In the middle of the scale is called neutral around 7. Syrup ph varies but is slightly acidic, less than 7.

[Mr Bill]

I know this thread became idle 7 months ago and maybe no one will pick it back up.

From the discussion, I wondered if the air injection allegedly altering the syrup might be an oxidation thing and not an air purity thing. In wine production, protecting the wine from air (oxygen) is a BIG deal. Tanks often have floating tops sealed with rolling diaphams or are purged with nitrogen before filling. Wine is often transfered to other tanks under a nitrogen or argon blanket to keep the oxygen from it. Sulfite solutions are used on equipment and small amounts added to the wine to neutralize oxygen that will oxidize some of the wine's components and compromise the taste.

Curiously, the syrup industry is also dealing with sugars as do the wine producers but has few similar oxidation concerns. I can't help but wonder if syrup is reasonably unaffected by oxidation with normal handling and boiling procedures but with air injection, the vast abundance of oxygen and the high temps is enough to cause some oxidation occuring and modestly affecting the syrup.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Bill,

That is a tremendous point and I can't wait to see what happens with this topic. Personally, I don't think it is wise to use it do to the fact that you are altering the natural process in injecting all the air. I don't care if you run it through a charcoal filter or whatever, there is no way you can get all the contaminents out of it.

Just like the jet fuel in organic milk last week! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[syrupmaker]

Brandon.... i'm reading your post about milk tainted with jet fuel and thinkin what the heck is he talking about? Then this morning in the Quick Match newsletter ( pyro news) i found this article.

Potent Lettuce

Residue from a rocket fuel plant destroyed in an explosion nearly 17 years ago near Henderson, Nev., continues to pollute the lower Colorado River, whose waters irrigate much of the lettuce consumed in the United States.
Now the Food and Drug Administration has confirmed earlier studies showing perchlorate contamination from that plant and other sites around the nation is concentrating in lettuce and milk.
The agency's results, released this week on the FDA Web site from tests conducted in August, underscore earlier studies by the Environmental Working Group, university researchers and California journalists, but they are the first to document nationwide contamination of food.
The FDA reported finding perchlorate in 217 of 232 samples of milk and lettuce in 15 states. Most of the samples were taken in California, Nevada and Arizona. Nearly all the samples showed perchlorate levels higher than the 1 part per billion the federal Environmental Protection Agency has identified in a preliminary risk assessment as acceptable for drinking water. That standard currently is under review by the National Academy of Sciences, which is expected to issue its evaluation in January.
Massachusetts has adopted the 1 ppb standard. California has set a preliminary safety standard of 6 ppb. Utah has no standard. State law says only that Utah's standard can't be more stringent than whatever the EPA adopts.
Perchlorate is the explosive component of rocket fuel. It is used to manufacture fireworks, gunpowder and highway flares. It also is used in tanning and leather finishing, rubber, paint and enamel production.
The lower Colorado River supplies most of Southern California's drinking water and irrigates over a million acres of farmland in California and Arizona, where much of the nation's winter produce is grown. Irrigation water used for alfalfa production is the most likely source of perchlorate contamination in milk.
FDA researchers say perchlorate at high doses disrupts thyroid gland functions. The biggest risks are to children and fetuses. Results include delayed development, mental retardation, hearing loss and motor skills impairment. Chronic lowering of thyroid hormones due to high perchlorate exposure may also result in thyroid tumors.
Even so, Bill Walker, EWG's West Coast vice president, said people shouldn't stop eating greens or drinking milk, because the foods' health benefits generally outweigh the perchlorate risk.
"The people we really think are getting the raw deal are the lettuce growers and dairymen," he said. "It's not their fault their products are contaminated with rocket fuels - or that their markets could be damaged by these findings."
The FDA emphasized that the data are exploratory and limited in scope, and that perchlorate levels don't necessarily translate to perchlorate exposure.
The Environmental Working Group, a research group with offices in California and Washington, D.C., has identified 162 sites in 36 states that use or manufacture perchlorate.
Twelve are in Utah.
The major pollution of the Colorado River started on May 4, 1988, when a series of explosions at the Kerr-McGee perchlorate manufacturing plant, PEPCON, at Henderson killed two employees and left a long-lasting legacy of perchlorate leaching into Lake Mead.
The Environmental Protection Agency estimates 500 pounds of perchlorate per day flows from the lake into the river.

Funny how things fall together in a day or two.

Rick

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[syrupmaker]

Kevin....if you (the general public) worry about what's gonna get you in your food your waisting your time. Your chances of dieing on the highway are a heck of alot greater,but you still get in your vehicle everyday. Flip a coin and take a walk tonight,unless your in the middle of pooh bears hundred acre woods there is still a chance a car could clip ya as you walk the shoulder. You just never know.When it's your time,it's your time. It's a proven fact that your not gonna get out this world alive.

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

post edited.

[syrupmaker]

Exactly my point! and the list would go on and on for ever as to when and were things made,bought,packaged,shipped on. OOOHHHHHHHHH enough already just let me enjoy life, and do and see the things i want to. LIKE MAKEING SYRUP
:wink:
Rick

[mapleman3]

Dont'drint the water, look at everyone who has died EVER!! they all drank water in their lives.. so DON'T drink the water!! :wink:

[themapleking]

Lucky for Rick he doesn't drink water. BEEER :lol:

[mapleman3]

You said it !!! 8) :wink:

[Mr Bill]

I confess to being somewhat skeptical that any minute quantity of impurities in the air being injected into syrup would impart much taste or affect the Ph. Smoke particulates that get into the sugar shack air and hence into the syrup pans from small leaks in pan gaskets, fire door gaskets or even the outside air through the front door of the shack would probably introduce more contamination than injection air that has been heavily filtered. So, I'm not overly concerned by that.

I also confess that I drink beer AND milk (though usually not at the same time unless I drank lots of beer first.)

But, back to my original pondering. Oxidation. Could this be an explaination for the alleged differences between syrup made conventional ways vs. methods using air injection?

[mapleman3]

the question here is , is the syrup actually in contact with the injected air long enough to even trigger "oxidation"? I think not, .. in wine your talking a product that sits in vats over a long period of time.. in an evaporator it may be in contact with the air much less than an hour on something just a bit bigger than a 2x6. I think if it's filtered air, I don't think it should do much more than make that syrup "dance" and release the steam more efficiently

[Mr Bill]

the question here is , is the syrup actually in contact with the injected air long enough to even trigger "oxidation"? I think not, .. in wine your talking a product that sits in vats over a long period of time.. in an evaporator it may be in contact with the air much less than an hour on something just a bit bigger than a 2x6. I think if it's filtered air, I don't think it should do much more than make that syrup "dance" and release the steam more efficiently


You may be right but time durations of concern in wine production can be fairly short. A few things to consider:

As you may recall, if you slice an apple and let it set for just a short time, an hour, the meat will turn brown due to oxidation. Set it in front of a fan and it will brown even quicker. When making apple and some other fruit wines, some producers will mist the fruit coming out of the chopper and prior to going into the fermentation tank with a dilute metabisulfite solution to prevent oxidation during this short time.

Some wine makers will use nitrogen or argon gas blankets over tanks to prevent oxygen contact for just the short time while transferring wine from one fermentation tank to another. Pouring or pumping wine into the open top of a tank is a major taboo -- having the wine splash mixes air into the wine and allegedly increases oxidation. When bottling they often use a nozzle that goes to the bottom of the bottle and fill it gently from the bottom up to prevent aeration. If you open a bottle of fine wine and drink 2/3's of it then cork it and put it back on the shelf, when you drink the rest a week later, the flavor will often be significantly compromised by the oxidation that occurs in just that short week. (can't say I ever noticed much change with Boone's Farm or maybe I just don't remember. Hmm... maybe I just never drank only 2/3 of it... I don't recall. )

Splashing and aeration will greatly increase the amount of oxygen that gets dissolved. Consider an aquarium -- turn off the little bubbler in the corner that puts oxygen into the water and a few days later you may have fish floating that have asphyxiated from a lack of dissolved oxygen. So, how much oxygen would go into solution if the entire aquarium bottom was covered with high powerf bubblers?

So, considering the high turbulance with air bubbles, the huge amount of surface area contact (the surface area of each bubble before it bursts) and the high temperatures that generally accelerate most chemical reactions, I rather suspect that *IF* oxidation is possible or significant , it would have opportunity to occur to some degree in an evaporator with air injection.

But I still wonder if:
1. Some kind of oxidation is what some people possibly taste with air injection?
2. Do people claim a difference between air injection in a steam-away preheater unit vs. injection in the evaporator pans?
2. If they really can taste the difference, have the golden tongues that claim a difference really done a double blind taste test?

Years ago in a previous life when I was an audio engineer, I went to a conference where some manufacturer had a bunch of headphones set up. They would ask all these supposed audio experts walking by their booth how much distortion they could hear and detect. All the golder ear folks would claim they could hear .01% or .05% or a few more modest ones migh claim .1% (curiously, numbers that were in the range of what most equipment makers specified for their amps) These guys would swear they could hear the distortion differences in various amps and favor particular brands. Well, this manufacturer would have them put on the headphones (like top of the line AKGs) and play some music and sounds and have the listener indicate when they could detect distortion in the sound. The threshold of detectability was regularly in the range of 1 to 2% , 10 to 200 times what the folks thought they could detect. Talk about some deflated egos...

Hmmm... I wonder... are people's tongues similarly afflicted?

Have fun.

[forester1]

Excellent points there Mr Bill. Makes me wonder if the differences in making syrup affect the taste. I heard from others with more discriminating taste than me that different sugarbushes or trees taste different. I know baked chicken tastes different than fried chicken. :idea: Maybe someday there will be syrup tasters like there are wine tasters that declare which which wineries have vintage years and the values skyrocket on their wine, only they will taste syrup at different sugarhouses and proclaim an excellent vintage, thus assuring a big profit for a few as those big spending yuppies will flock buy that years production.

[mapleman3]

hmm syrup tasting parties with your pinky in the air.. I smell Profit!!!!

[Mr Bill]

golly, I like the way you guys think.

[michaelh05478]

I was at DG last week and they had a 3x8 on the floor with air injection and it was around $2,200 for the air injection........... What a rip off for what ya get....just another way of dipping into your pockets!!!!!!

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Couldn't put it any better myself! :lol: :lol: :lol:

[mapleman3]

because it's for "MAPLE" if it was the same thing for generic use and in the McMaster cataloge it would be half the cost :? :roll:

[themapleking]

That's why we make our own stuff. 500% mark-up ya-right :roll:

[mapleman9000]

Sorry for my late responce, but I know of a responce that no one has had. I know, as a conservation student, that the temperature of the water in a stream greatly affects the amount of disolved oxygen in the water. Any trout fisherman would also know this, you will only find brookies in the cold, well shaded mountain streams. Perhapse the intense heat of boiling sap and syrup eliminates all the oxygen. Also in order for there to be oxidation, there must also be iron. I do not know the average chemical composition of syrup, but perhapse it is different enough from wine that the level of iron is not high enough to make a difference.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

After watching one of the air injection systems in action this past Sat, it confirmed what I had originally thought. All this air blowing into the syrup has to cool the sap and syrup a lot and even if the air is heated, it is still going to cool it.

A lot of this new technology coming out is a way to increase sales and profits for the producers. :?

[syrupmaker]

The one that we looked at Sat. was running at full thottle. If you run it that way i agree you would really cool things down quick. The one that we built for poops and grins, the incoming stailess 1 1/2" tube to feed it, passes through the steam hood to heat the air some. The valve we put inline allows us to gate it down to control the amount of bubbles. Ours wide open will bubble so hard it rolls over the top of the flue pan.

Rick

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[mapleman3]

actually thats a good experiment :D

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Kevin,

You may be right. I thought about that, but don't know for sure! :?

[syrupmaker]

Easier yet take a hot cup of coffee,tea or just hot water in a cup and see how much steam comes off the cup before you blow air in it with a straw. Bet the steam increases with the air bubbles.

Rick

[WF MASON]

If you've ever seen a steamaway 'boil' , all that air being pumped in doesn't seem to cool much.

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Alright, you guys are probably right. I don't mind at all admitting when I am wrong and it looks like I am in this instance. I do think it is a big rip off of $ 1200 for a 2x6 evaporator. You can buy a decent used evaporator for that. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[mapleman3]

what the heck did we say that tool was? I forget, but I do remember laughing awhile at it though :lol:

[themapleking]

You can add me to the air injection list. I found a nice small squirrel cage blower 1500 rpm. So I made a air injection unit for the syrup pan. Farely simple and a lot cheeper than $1500 more like $75 for the copper and fitings.
I'll see if all the B.S. they're feeding us is true.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Joe,

Can't wait to see how it works. One thing I have figured out fast, if anyone can make it work and make it work better than it is supposed to, it will be the MAPLEKING.

Good luck and wish you 200+ gallons this season!!!!!! :D

[gmcooper]

Last winter I was at Bascoms a couple times and had a good discussion on the air injection. Two things to keep in mind and both are related. 1 Air injection for maple came from Canada, where much of thier syrup goes to warehouse or co-op (not direct to consumer). Number 2 the syrup will taste like the air smells. If you bring in clean air and properly filter it you are golden. If you bring in smoky or oily or musty air you are sunk. Problem I have heard about is when the wind shifts. Yesterday was fine but wind changed and today might be different story. I did hear of one operation planning to draw air thru pvc pipe about 500" to get clear of sugarhouse and barn yard. Good luck!

[Toblerone]

I suspect that it is carbon dioxide in the air being injected rather than the oxygen that is affecting the pH of the sap/syrup. I remember an experiment in high school chemistry class where a blue ph indicator was put in water, then you blow bubbles into the water with a straw and the indicator turned pink. The CO2 dissolved in the water creating carbonic acid-- lowering the pH and turning the indicator pink.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbonic_acid.

Consider this: "A solution of carbon dioxide in water in equilibrium [i.e. saturated] with the atmosphere (0.033% CO2) has a pH of 5.6." I don't know the natural pH of sap, but 5.6 seems pretty significant if sap has a neutral pH of 7.
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