Using Vacuum

[Amber Gold]

At what point does vacuum make economic sense? 100, 200,... taps?

Thanks

[OGDENS SUGAR BUSH]

this year was my 1st for vac, 136 taps. i did it because it saved me from gathering, did not tear up the woods from driving thru it , and had more sap to boil. i cant believe i didnt do it sooner

RICH

[Russell Lampron]

It would depend on how fast you want the extra sap that you will get to pay for the vacuum pump and releaser. The more taps that you have the sooner it will pay for itself. If you don't mind waiting for the return on the initial investment you can put as few taps on vacuum as you want. I put it on 200 taps when I first started using vacuum and it pretty much paid for itself in 2 seasons.

[Amber Gold]

I currently have permission to install about 50 taps on tubing and am working on expanding down the hill onto another piece of land. This other property has about 80-90 taps on this side of the hill. He also owns another 30 acres on the back side of the hill so there's the potential for much more in that direction. I still have to seek permission to tap this other property. In total this tubing run would have approximately 130 taps +/- on it (if everything works out) and unless my neighbors let me run the pump using their electrical hookup it would need to a gas powered pump. I'm guessing a gas powered pump would be more money?

[tuckermtn]

I have a tubing set up for 121 taps (soon to be around 140-50) that I put vacuum on this year...got the small releaser from the maple guys ($500+) , a $50 electric motor on ebay and a surge sp-11 on ebay for $50. plus misc, fittings, shipping, etc. I figure my total cost is close to $750. I haven't run all the numbers yet from this season, but all I would need to produce to have the system paid off is either 12+ gallons of retail quarts (or 480 gal of sap at 40 to 1)...should be paid off in 2-3 years like Russ...

one additional bonus with running the vac system is you can use sap ladders...which in my case means getting to all the taps I couldn't get on gravity...probably 30 or so additional taps.

But then again, my "economic stimulus payment" from Uncle Sam made my cost zero...

-tuckermtn

[Haynes Forest Products]

Tuckermtn has it right. Go the Ebay route if you have the time and tools put something together just keep checking and low bidding and it will come your way. Keep in mind that you dont need to start with what you hope to end up with!..........WHAT.........Start by making up a small rig and learn from it when you master that sell it and make the big move.You can get gas engines for cheap if you can do electric you can get a GAST vacuum pump 110volt that will do just fine 100.00 will do 200 taps easy. Im going to be running a 1HP gast oiless vacuum pump that i got at a junk yard that will pull 26 HGs at 21CFMs. I ran a double Bernard extractor and it worked great think out side the box.

[Brian Ryther]

I bought my Massport M5 for $50 and 1/2 gal of syrup. I built the reclaimer and muffler, $800 for the releaser, 2 sap ladders and I was able to have 500 on vac in no time. I am addicted to sap ladders now I know they work. I have installed three more this summer. My topography dictates tubing this way. I will be able to add hundreds of taps now I have vac. So not only the added value of the taps but having them under vac, the production is that much greater. Priceless.

[Russell Lampron]

If the property that the taps are on abuts yours you could set the vacuum pump up at your house and run a pipe from your pump to the releaser down over the hill. My releaser is about 900 feet away from my pump. It is a lot easier to run the pump with an electric motor. With the price of gas it could cost $20 a day or more to run a gas motor.

[Amber Gold]

I’ve got a used 300 gal s/s milk tank that I’m looking at. Can any s/s tank be used with vacuum without the use of a releaser? I know absolutely nothing about vacuum other than there’s a pump at the top of the run and a tank at the bottom with a releaser. The tank was used for a dairy operation. At one point they welded the covers shut and used it as a hot water storage tank for something on the farm. The current owner who uses it for sap storage cut the welds on the covers so he could have access to the inside for cleaning. It would seem the releaser’s the expensive part and if you could remove that it would be more cost effective to install tubing. I think there are more sugars on the north side of the slope and if I could construct a sap ladder with vacuum I could pull that stuff over the crest. Are there vacuum limitations on a s/s tank if no releaser is used?

I have no problem buying used equipment and it’s how I’m getting my operation going. I’ll let someone else take the initial decrease in equipment value.

[maplecrest]

i have folded a few tanks using vac. use only tanks that are cearly marked on them for vacuum use. most tanks are marked non vacuum

[tuckermtn]

I think the milk tanks to look for are the Zero's and Sunsets...some of them are set up to take vacuum

[Amber Gold]

How do I determine if the tank is setup for vacuum? Is there something look for? Is the releaser built into the tank and so what does it look like and is it something they would've removed when they converted it to a water storage tank?

[maplecrest]

sunsets are not made for over 20 inches, zeros will go higher. a vac tank will have a stamp on it some where that it will take vacuum.my tanks say right on them if they are vac or not. the tank is the releaser. you plumb the tank for the vac in one hole like the dip stick. and you plumb the sap to come in, in another opening. put a vac gauge at the top of the in comming line to read vac level. vac tanks tend to heat sap up.

[Haynes Forest Products]

On a Zero tank look on the end at the very top it should say vacuum or non vacuum tank its hard to see its very faint. I to sucked in a few tanks. one was a non vacuum Zero tank with a 1/2 Gast pump WITHOUT A REGULATOR.
Vacuum on a non vacuum tank will work fine as long as sap is moving and you have your share of air leaks and a regulator. I sucked my tank in when I screwed the regulator down to compensate for air leaks and the next morning I started the pump and the mainlines were frozen. That changes everything!!
I find the heat issue of big tanks a non issue. Most dairy tanks are insulated so the sap doesnt get to 75 degrees. I believe air agitation and bacteria is more of a problem and the heat adds to that problem. I use releasers so the 1/2 round tanks work great and are cheaper and lower for your realeaser.

[Amber Gold]

What's the going rate for a s/s vacuum tank and a s/s non-vacuum tank?

For a GAST vacuum pump are you talking about this one:
http://www.gastmfg.com/pdf/rotvane/1065_2065_2565_series.pdf
the 2565

[ennismaple]

The going rate is a bit better than $1 per gallon.

As far as warming your sap - at the end of the season the sap in out 1200 gallon open top tank was still crystal clear while the sap in our Zero tanks was cloudy.

[Haynes Forest Products]

AG That pump looks out dated and it uses oil. The gast pumps i have are oiless vane type. I looked on Ebay and the small one i have is similar to item no 150252578247. Mine has filter jars/muffler filters on the intake and exaust and is 1/2 HP. Granger sells them but there around $500-700 and i see them go for 100.00

[Amber Gold]

If it's oilless what do you use to keep the pump cool? I thought all sap vacuum pumps are oil type pumps. Isn't one of the big problems the pump running hot and not pulling as high of a vacuum. Also what about heating the sap up? Is the pump responsible for that?

[Haynes Forest Products]

AG The vacuum pump wont heat the sap becouse the sap never gets to the pump . The sap goes into the tank first and the vacuum air goes threw the pump and out discharge. What has happend is most equipment in the maple industry is from some other application. the vacuum pumps came from the dairy farm and the vacuum tank as well. Most dairy vac pumps are cast iron vane pumps that turned slow RPMs and dripped oil into the bearings and then into the vanes for lubrication first and help seal the vanes. milking cows only takes about 13-15 HGs vacuum and not alot of CFMs. The milk lines are only as long as the farthest stantion into the milk house. The lines are big and not alot of leaks. A vacuum system in the woods takes high vacuum and alot of CFMs to over come leaks and we all have them. And now for the kicker High vacuum = high heat ....High RPMs higher CFMs=high heat.....high heat = lower vacuum I think we call this a vicious circle.
Oil reclaimers cause back pressure and back pressure causes heat. What has happend is we keep trying to get higher and higher vacuum out of a pump that was not designed for it.
Oiless vane pumps are ment for high vacuum and continues duty with low maintainance.Oiless pumps have vanes that are a carbon base material that stands up to high heat. During the 08 season i turned my DeLaval pump into a boat ancor and with a releaser setup i didnt want to try and covert to gravity so i ran a 1/2 Gast oiless vane pump and maintained 12 to 14 HGs on 1025 taps and ran it of a camping generator 12 Hr days for a week. For the 09 season im going to run one releaser on my gas powerd Massport and another by the sap shack off my Gast vane pump

[Haynes Forest Products]

AG Was looking on Ebay today and if you go to VACUUM PUMPS GAST you will see the pumps im talking about. Item No. 260246041302 is all you would need if you have a releaser or vac tank.
I see that your shooting for 100 taps in 09 this pump will get you into the game. spend the money on a releaser and tank and go for more taps. if you out grow the pump sell your setup and go bigger.
There is a pump on Ebay that you could run with a gas engine 3.5 HP with a coupler NO BELT DRIVE they wont last with a side load on the shaft. You could put together a gas powerd rig for CHEAP.

[Spike]

[What is a Gast pump .How do they work, and how many taps will they handle?

[Haynes Forest Products]

Gast is the brand name not the type of pump. They make piston and vane type vacuum pumps. Vane type pumps will pull higher CFMs than the piston type. I got a Gast vane oiless vac pump that the manf. said will pull 26HGs or 21CFMs and i say it that way becouse you wont pull 21 CFMs and 26HGs at the same time. But you can run high HGs all day long without the overheating problems that oil type dairy pumps have. I see that the formula is 1 CFM for every 100 taps.....I dont know if that is the going rate anymore. If you have power at the realeser or tank it a easy way to go. If you saw my Massport dairy pump and what i did to it so i can run high vacuum and keep it cool why not go the oiless route??? If your going to run elec fans and water coolers and spend 4000.00 on a store bought why not give this a try. Keep in mind that all vacuum pumps are compressors so you will see them advertised that way some times.

[Amber Gold]

If oiless works better than how come I hear everybody talking about liquid ring pumps?

I checked the ebay posting. How can you determine the cfm's based on the spec?

Doesn't the pump go at the high point of the run and the releaser at the bottom with the tank? If this is the case how does power at the releaser help you? Or can you put the vacuum and releaser at the bottom? Not sure I follow how you'd setup a gas powered rig.

I should change my signature becauase my plan has changed. I actually want to tap as many trees as I get permission for, with an evaporator to match. Based on the prices that I've been getting, I think I've about given up restoringing the arch I have and will look for a used rig instead. I can see myself ranging from the 60 that I currently have permission for, to an additional 170 that I'm in the process of seeking permission for plus whatever else I may find prior to the next season. We'll see how it works out.

[ennismaple]

I see that the formula is 1 CFM for every 100 taps.....I dont know if that is the going rate anymore.

The latest version of the North American Maple Syrup Manual recommends you size pumps for closer to 50 taps per CFM.

[Spike]

I do have electric and I'm thinking of a Lapierre Double releaser. I will have 1900 taps. What size Gast would I be looking at ? And where would I look for one? And cost.

[PATheron]

Guys- Down here we kind of figure on 3 cfm's per hundred so on a thousand taps wed run a 30 cfm. I think that the 1 cfm per hundred will work but if theres any leaks it seems like its game over. With a little more if you get some minor leaks its no big deal. I dont think you should run the big pump and not keep the woods tight but if you loose a line when your not around at least you dont loose the sap for that day. Theron

[Haynes Forest Products]

AG tank pump and releaser in most cases are at the lowest point of the operation. But if the elec is at the highest point then run a dry line down to the releaser and tank and go that route. gravity is your friend.

[Amber Gold]

I think I'm getting an idea in how all of this works. I think it's possible that I'd have electric at the top, maybe at the bottom. I'm starting to figure out all of the parts. I just picked up the North American Maple Producers Manual and have been reading it. There's lots of good information in there and it seems to be pretty inclusive of the maple business.

Thanks for the help.