vacuum pumps oilless vane pumps

[Haynes Forest Products]

With all the problems I and others have with vacuum pumps that need both oil and good air supply to stay cool. Why not use oilless vane pumps?
I burned up a DeLavale this year and used a 1HP vane pump that the manufacture said can run all day long 27HG and not overheat. Does not need
vacuum breaker on main line for outside air........I use a releaser and not a vac tank all seemed to work fine What can go wrong with my thinking..........Chuck

[powerdub]

if the manufacturer guarantees it, go for it.

[Parker]

Is it a Vane pump or a liquid ring pump? I think a vane pump would need oil going thru it to keep bearings cool-lubed and to keep vane sealed aginst housing and lubed? But I dont know?????

[Haynes Forest Products]

It is a rotary with a carbon composate vanes it has sealed bearings. you can get them from Granger. In the catalog there about 785.00 got this one at a junk yard. this one will do 21 CFM so for my 1100 taps its got room to expand.
I have a smaller Gast vane pump I used 3 years ago on a Zoro vacuum tank and screwd the vac realease down a little to much and come to find out in little print at the top of the tank on one end it says NON VACUUM well I sucked the tank in and it looked like a pop can you bent the side in.

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[Haynes Forest Products]

Thanks Governor
I just spent the day mounting a ZERO Masport senoir oil vane pump its a monster. Im replacing the De Lavale that I burned up due to no oil. I mounted a oil reclaimer on the discharge and it has filters that reclaims the oil out of the dischrge air. The oil then runs down oil lines back to the pump. It works great. With a 9HP Briggs at a little over idle I can get 27HG but it gets hot. With vacuum regulator I can keep it a 22 HG and it seems to run warm to the touch. I think with a oil cooler and tank This beast will work great. ANY ONE KNOW HOW TO CHANGE THE QUOTE UNDER MY NAME IT CHANGED AND IM NOT A WOOD CHOPPER IM GOING BROKE WITH OIL

[Russell Lampron]

Haynes Forest Products,

Just keep posting. As the number of post increases the heading under your name changes. I don't know how many it will take to get to the next level though.

[TomBaumberger]

I have used a oiless vane pump for about five years, the only problem I have encountered was when I let sap get to it. New vane kit is about $100. I only run about 15"Hg vacuum.

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[Haynes Forest Products]

With the masport pump the RPMs are alot slower so the heat up is less. I realize that a vacuum pump is also a compressor and that is why it heats up. I used a blend of chainsaw bar oil chain lub and air comp oil. This pump oiled by surge pump with glass jar on top that had tubes running to the bearings. I changed that to a circulator from the oil reclaimer. I think my next step is a fan pully and a oil radiator to cool the oil and add volume.
I have a DeLaval water seperator that came with the old pump and that will be mounted on the intake near the pump. Im glad I munted wheels on this beast its getting heavy.
goes anyone have any ideas about running your releaser on 1 vacuum pump and then useing a second pump out in the middle of the sugar bush to run dry lines to vacuum boosters......IS THIS OVERKILL Chuck

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[Haynes Forest Products]

Thanks Governor
OK ill bite whats UFB ? I Tap 1100 and will be adding another 200 this summer if the skeeters aint to bad in woods next to the swamp. The Masport has to be 30CFMs if not more. I can see alot of room for improvment for next year. I was so sick and tired of smelling like oil every time I went near the old vac system. Now under the heading WHAT THE HELL WERE YOU THINKING....
Never and I mean NEVER stand over your DeLaval oil sump tank and have someone pull open the blue flap on your releaser to release the vacuum so you can fill the sump as its running............Things we would like to forget. I looked like James Dean in Little Big man when he struck oil Chuck

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[Haynes Forest Products]

Governor
The reason that I did this stupid act in the first place was I was thinking that I could get oil mist into my extractor. Is that a problem? is there a solution to vaccum in the lines sucking back thru the releaser/extractor?

Chuck

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[Haynes Forest Products]

Governor
Im thinkin you just asked me a trick question. I do not have a check valve in the system but there is one on the work bench now. Now to that first question..... from the extractor to the water trap to the vac. release to the new check valve and into the vacuum pump. From there the hot vac. air goes into a new 4 gallon oil tank to settle down the oil.The tank vents into a oil seperator that drains oil back into the oil tank. vacuum pulls oil from the tank threw a oil cooler and goes into the bearings and air intake on the vacuum side CHUCK

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[Haynes Forest Products]

Im still in the prosses of fine tuning my vacuum pump. Im running a 9HP gas engine with a Masport 2 vane oil pump its marked 35 on the intake. I have removed all the old oil system and put a 6 gallon tank with oil reclaimer on the exaust. The oil that comes out of the reclaimer goes to the bearings and I have a flood system that goes thru a oil cooler into the intake. The hot air and oil mix that goes into the oil tank runs at about 200 to 210 degrees after about 1 HR with the intake restricted down to about zero and it shows 22 hg vacuum. I think once this is on the releaser with incoming air it should run cooler. WHAT DO YOU THINK? Im still making changes So bring it on

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[Haynes Forest Products]

Well "GOV" thats why Im asking what you all think. My line of thinking is HEAT is the killer of these pumps and lack of oil. I have plenty of oil now I need to cool the oil as much as possible to help cool the pump. I hear others talk about pumps with oil flooding and to me there has to be a point of diminishing return. How much oil is needed to lube and cool. I also dont know what a safe oil temp is for this type of pump. To much oil and you have less air to cool the inside of the pump. Im thinking as in a cars radiator you dont want the water going thru the system so fast that it doesnt cool it.

[Haynes Forest Products]

Well I think the beast is done! Ran it for 2 hrs with the intake blocked and it ran 26HG and with the 5 gallons of oil that runs threw the oil cooler and then floods the intake the oil temp run a steady 195 degrees and thats with out side air temp at 70. I think with cool temps and cool air from the releaser it will run alot cooler. Put fan blades on the pully so I get air movement over the pump.

[royalmaple]

I know with the liquid ring pump I run, they are rated at 60 degree temp of the sealant liquid. As that sealant rises in temp you loose performance. And at 100 degrees there is a loss of almost 40% in performance. So if you factor that in with the power curve that is in all pumps already in the higher vacuum, you can loose some serious performance quickly.

Colder the better.

[Haynes Forest Products]

I have never seen a liquid ring pump. What is the concept. On the Masport that I have there are no seals so the higher heat isnt a problem. I have this set up with a small valve to regulate the oil flow into the intake. When it is wide open I lose about 3-5 HGs vacuum and the vanes make a rattle sound I think they hydroplane a little. The two vanes have a rounded surface that is smaller than the curve of the pump body so my thought is they ride up on the flood oil so I have cut it back.

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[Haynes Forest Products]

So CFMs really dont matter as much as vacuum in a tight system? Higher CFMs help over come air leaks and help to maintain a higher vacuum is this correct? My Masport is made in New Zealand and is stamped 35 on the intake side casting do you think that is the CFM rating. The pump does increase in HGs as the pump heats up around the 120degree mark and I think that becouse the oil is thinning and the vanes are not floating on the oil.

[brookledge]

Haynes
What it comes down to is this. If you have a very tight system you can get away with less CFMs. Over the course of a day the amount of cfms needed changes. In the morning when you turn the vacuum on and it is just starting to flow your vac.regulator should open more to let air in and as the sap begins to flow faster and the trees release more gasses the vacuum regulator will close to keep the same HG". The it's just the oposite at night as the flow slows down.
If your regulator is letting in air and a leak develops somewhere in the system it will close to try to keep the same HG".
So if your system is keeping the amount of HG" that you want when the sap is running real good then you are all set.
I have seen systems that lose alot of " of vac during the day so that is a sign that you either have to many leaks or your pump doesn't have enough CFMs
Keith

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[Haynes Forest Products]

Im under the impression that the only reason to have a vacuum regulator is to let air into the system to keep it cool. As long as the pump will not overheat with the air from the releaser why waste vacuum or CFMs having a regulator dumping all the time? I have a regulator its the blue DeLaval with the plastic cup over a lead weight its not adjustable. What is the harm going without the reg?

[royalmaple]

The regulator "regulates" the vacuum level on the system. Has nothing to do with cooling the pump, other than allowing a controlled break in the system when needed, to keep the vacuum level from getting too high.

Hence too high of vacuum on certain pumps means they are working too hard, and a pump working too hard means a hot pump, which means, a dead pump sooner or later.

[Haynes Forest Products]

Royalmaple
The dairy pump I have used the regulator to protect the cows from high vac. I have read in other posts that you need to have air threw the pump to cool it. I changed this pump from a drip oil system to a flood type so it runs cooler with higher vacuum. I read in the maple news that you want as high a vacuum as possible. My regulator pops off at about 18 HGs and that seems low. I wont be able to maintain higher numbers in the woods with this type of reg.

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

One other thing

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

Adjustable regulator.

[Haynes Forest Products]

Thanks Governor
I have one just about the same as that one. Has a cover basket that covers the unit. I had it on a small set up with a piston type welch pump and turned that tank into scrap so I thought the regulator was to small. I think i had it cranked down too much. Ill give the brass one another try. I have a habit of turning nice stanless tanks into scrap. I just orderd another Bernard double releaser so i have my work cut out for me in the woods this summer. Booster tanks,dry lines,sap ladders OH MY