Drawing off

[MaplePancakeMan]

Okay, so i know that an evaporator should draw off syrup at some point but i seem to be having a problem with it. i have a 2x6 drop flue from Patrick i have had it the last three seasons snow and very rarely does my thermometer ever read right. Additionally i can't seem to maintain a boil in the first channel of the syrup pan. The middle and back channels boil like crazy. I never had it quite level the last two seasons but this last spring i hoisted the evaporator(a chore in it self) and dug the bottom ground out laid gravel and sand and put mason blocks under it and made sure it was level both ways. I let it settle a few weeks and it still maintained its level. However this still hasn't proved to help me much.


Any ideas on what can help me, i've tried closing the damper and putting it open at three different levels to see if that helps, i've tried only firing in the front of the firebox i've tried a completely full fire box 3/4 and 2/3rds full and i can't seem to trouble shoot it.


Could it be that i don't have a good way of maintaining my level rather i periodically have to turn a pump on and fill the evaporator to the level, i try to do this every 15-20 min. I haven't built a stand for my tanks to trickle in yet. I however don't think this would affect my syrup drawing abilities too much.?

Any advice is greatly appreciated
Steve

[Valley View Sugarhouse]

every time you change the level in your pans you mess the gradient up and cause mixing between the channels in the syrup pan.. Have you tried a stack damper?? it almost sounds to me like you have too much draft for it not to boil in the front par. .. The othe thing I have seen done (in oil arches), is you build a tapered shelf back towards the fron before it goes to the rear pan..

[MaplePancakeMan]

So by not having an adequate and constant level in the pan i can achieve back mixing which would ultimately affect my ability to draw syrup?


Without building a tank to let me drip it in could i just run my pump hose into a pvc pipe with a ball valve to my float? to let it trickle in?

[Pete33Vt]

I would get your tank set up. I know with my rig it starts to do funny things when my feed tank get down. The pressure behind the float,(tank side) is different and it messes with the float. By keeping then feed tank level up I have no problems. It sounds like when you turn on your pump to (fill) your rig your putting to much raw sap in at once and its back mixing big time.

[3% Solution]

Pancake,
Get that tank set up as others have said!
Nothing like a continous feed which results in a continous draw (well no continous draw, but your not batching).
You keep putting sap at the rear and it keeps pushing the hotter sap forward unti it has no place to go, that last section. Then it just sits there and gets hotter.
Do as Valley View said try a stack damper or if you can take a section of your stack off, that will reduce your draft a bit.
Try building your fire back at the door.
We keep the fire back as far as we can.
Let us know what happens.
Stay safe.

Dave

[Mark-NH]

As Dave said, you need a float system to feed the pans as needed. Without adding raw sap at the farthest point from draw off on a consistent basis you have no material pushing syrup to the end of the line. I would not mess with a damper until I had a float system in place. Your pans must have come with one, right? Set that up and see what you have.

[MaplePancakeMan]

I have a float box and such but since i don't have the tank set for gravity feed yet when i turn the pump on it is too much pressure for the float and ends up allowing too much sap in and doesn't trickle as it should. Thats why i started adding from the float box every 15 is minutes. I still added from the float box as this is where it should be added.

So the consensus is, that by adding it the way i am, its essentially too much at one time and messes with the gradient in the pan. It should be a slow and continual move through the flue to the syrup pan? i'll see if i can't trouble shoot this quickly, to remedy the problem. It would be very nice to actually have syrup off the evaporator for a change finishing it on a burner gets overrated. Additionally it would make my boiling easier and dedicated only to firing.

Another question, by doing it the way i am currently would that slow my GPH evaporation rate because i seem to not really be reaching my potential? I know by trickling in it keeps the boil thus helping evaporation but the back mixing thats occurring can that really hurt my Evaporation rate?


So without building a stand to raise my tank up just yet because i can't get into the ground to anchor the posts in could i take PVC valve and elbow attach it to the float, crack it open a little and attach it to my pump hose on and keep the pump on and use the valve as a regulator to keep the sap coming in as it should?

[RileySugarbush]

How about a short term raised tank you can pump into? Maybe a tote sitting on a couple of saw horses? It would get you through the season with better regulation on the sap inflow.

[maplehound]

If you are going to use the pump you will probably need a bypass to relieve the pressure. Other wise it will always be to much for whatever valve you do have. I agree with the others get something if even temporary to elevate your tank. How big is your tank? You will only need a small tank even a 5 or 10 gallon bucket would probably do. then just fill it when it gets to about 1/2 full. A larger tank just means filling less often.

[Fred Henderson]

Holy cow when I had my old 2'X6'6" three channel flat pan I had a float box and valve and a feed tank that I keep full. It worked very well and it will be in use this year by the guy that bought it.

[MaplePancakeMan]

I have two options, 55 gallon drum but i'd have to put a valve on it or a 275 gallon tote tank in a cage on a pallet. My dad has a lot of pallets i might be able to stack together and support together with a couple pieces of wood and raise the tank on that.


Today is a rainy day and i boil outside so its a good day for me to find a solution to this so i can really start doing things correctly and appease my mother for staying out of her kitchen. (for the most part still gotta heat up my canner)


Also does anyone know what size and type of thread i need for those cage tank valves?


You guys have been great!

[maplehound]

If you want to use the drum, go to your local farm supply store and buy a bulk head fitting like they use on the poly tanks. They will have a nut on one side and rubber seal on inside and out. Ussually they are made for a round surface but if not you might need to flatten a spot on the drum. This fitting will give you a threaded hole to attach a vlave to. The pallet idea shuld work just fine if you can keep them stable enough. JUst remember we all started out the same way. Trial and error.
GOOD LUCK AND KEEP US POSTED

[RileySugarbush]

Less than $10 at Walmart will get you a 20 or 30 gallon tote. My feed tank is plastic like that, and I drilled an undersized round hole near the bottom, pressed a barb fitting in and use the hose pressed up tight to clamp it. No leaks and cheap. I used a tee so there is another section strapped up the side as a sight tube for monitoring level.

[Valley View Sugarhouse]

A 50 gallon plastic drum can be held up with no real effort that you would only have to fill every hour or so..

[cncaboose]

On the subject of your thermometer. Patrick installs them angled high on the draw off box. The result is that only the end of the probe is in the boiling syrup at any time and that varies depending on how deep you run the sap and how much foaming you have. Not reliable at all. If you look at Leader and other evaporators the thermometer goes in horizontally at the bottom of the pan so the entire probe is in the syrup and gives you a consistent and accurate temp. I defoam regularly at the sap input to keep my overall level as steady as possible. I also figured out about where the temp on the thermometer needs to be for syrup and then when it is getting close I check the hot sweet often with the hydrometer. You could also mount a new fitting low on the pan side and move your thermometer. I plan on doing that but it hasn't happened yet. You have got to get something going for feeding your float even if it is just a 5 gallon pail with a fitting in the bottom to attach your feed tube to. Constant level in the pan is important.

[Mike]

I was talking to my friend who is a top producer here....I need to correct myself...H draws off 1/2 degree early not 1-2 like i said...He also said if your running a RO the front pan should be 1 3/4" deep on my 3x10......This is at 8% sugar.....He runs 17% and runs it deeper with his rig which I think is a 5x16........

[Russell Lampron]

MaplePancakeMan,

Setting up a feed tank so that it gravity feeds the evaporator is going to help but I think your main problem is that you boil outside. The cold and wind really suck the heat out of your pans. You really need to get some kind of shelter around your evaporator to make it boil right.

Russ

[MaplePancakeMan]

so i went and bought some bulkhead fittings and what not gonna install them today so i can get this all in the works.


I did see that Patrick's thermometers are at a high angle and don't read very accurately. I bought an instant read thermometer that i'm going to try out and see if it makes a difference. Otherwise i'll be in the same boat about moving the thermometer.

[MaplePancakeMan]

Russ, i did put up 4ft walls around the evaporator with no roof so i think this should help a bit, not entirely but it makes it a little better.

[Fred Henderson]

If you are really looking for a strong future in syruping you had better get things set up right. Flying by the seat of your pants don't cut it very long in this business.

[brookledge]

Maple pancake
Another option for a feed tank is to use a small tank about 20 to 30 gallons. Mount it up over your evaporator as a feed tank. Then all you need is a small bilge pump to constantly feed the small tank from your storage tank on the ground. Make another conection for the excess sap to run back to the storage tank on the ground. And have your feed line to the evaporator on the bottom of the small tank. That way you have a easy setup and can be taken down easy if you need to dismantle every year.
I have a feed tank in my sugarhouse but I have seen this type of setup and it works very good.
If you do mount a larger tank as your feed tank remember that at 8lbs./gallon the weight adds up fast,so make sure your stand can support the weight
Keith

[MaplePancakeMan]

Since i couldn't find an adapter with the right threading for my cage tote tanks i bought some bulk heads and put one in a 55 gallon drum and another one on the bottom of my 275 gallon cage tank. I am grabbing the pallets in the morning and am going to stack them and anchor-brace each corner of the stack with two 2x4's. This should provide enough support per square inch to support a full 275 gallons of sap. I should have the feed down by tomorrow hopefully this resolves my syruping issues.


Thanks for the help and i'll let you know how it ends up.