OK or not?

[325abn]

I think I know the answer but I am going to pose the question anyways.

Would you use a free galvinized stock tank to use as a tank to dump sap into?

By used I mean used to water horses and cows with if said tank was cleaned and scrubbed very well with a bleach sulution.

[Maplewalnut]

I would be more concerned about any rust then horse slobber. Whether is was water to feed livestock or unpasteurized milk, the potential bacteria in bulk tanks are all the same. Clean with a bleach solution rinse well and you should be good to go.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Best thing is not to broadcast it if you do use it like boiling in a gas tank. Use your best judgement and go forwards.

[Sugarmaker]

325,
I think each of us have to answer many food handling questions as we make syrup.
Step one is having the awareness to all the potential food handeling issues in all of our processes till it gets to the customers pancakes. Forums like this help all of us make better/ best products.
Many of the containers you describe ( stock tanks) have and are being used today to gather and store sap.

I would error on the side of clean and sanitary as possible. With the best equipment that we can afford.

Currently we syrupmakers are policing our own ranks and processes. Lets try to keep it that way!

Chris

[NH Maplemaker]

I'm with Chris on this one!! There are some out there that would love to start Policing us!! Bruce Bascom told us at the New Hampshire maple producers meeting this year, that it is just a matter of time before the state starts check us! As the organic market grows and more large customers (food store chains, Japan, China, Korea) are demand paper trails all the way back to the maple producer.More and more regulations will be placed on us!! So the better we do at policing our self the better the argument to keep the state regulators out of or sugar houses!!

Jim L.
__________

[maplehound]

You never know who else is reading these postings. The law makers may just end up using this topic to show the need to police us more. If I was them and read this I would shore think we need regulated to protect the food chain. Since we all should know by now that most galvinizing contains lead and that is the one thing we need to watch more than anything else right now.

[jemsklein]

that is so true

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

I would totally agree with Ron, if you have a questionable question, send a PM to several of the more experienced sugarmakers on here and let them answer it via PM. We don't need anything requiring more regulations.

[325abn]

Putting a side the used stock tank question for now.

Come on now are you kidding me?? I am not to conserned with some pol reading this post and using it as a basis for any **** thing give me a break!!

How many galvinised buckets are being used? Its not like the question was weather or not sap would be boiled in the stock tank or a used gas tank!:) :)

Storing cold sap in a gal tank is not a problem. Just drive around NH or VT and count the number of gal tanks sitting at the end of sap line.

[jemsklein]

that is a very good point almost all of the buckets that are used are galvinised and there are still galvinised storage drums out there

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

I agree there are probably tens of thousands of these tanks still in use and I use them for syrup only and have always been used for that. I was not trying to offend anyone, just think that we don't need to give the industry any more problems. Everything we do is monitored anymore whether we like it or not or whether you believe it or not.

[325abn]

No offense taken what so ever in any way shape or form. I am an old American Paratrooper I dont think anything discussed on this forum could offend me. Of course thats assuming we stick to talking about surgar and dont start talking about War, politics or my family etc etc etc even then I dont offend easily. :) :) :) :)

I hope to have my first boil along about Wedsday at least enough to sweeten my pan.

[maplehound]

yes we do relize that these tanks and buckets as well as lead solder and many more prblem area's still in use today but we need to reinforce that continued use of these is not the best solution. WE all need to look at our operation and ask, would I eat out of that? Should I ask someone else to eat out of that? How would it look to a prospective costumer if they see it? These simple questions will answer if we should use it or not.

[325abn]

yes we do relize that these tanks and buckets as well as lead solder and many more prblem area's still in use today but we need to reinforce that continued use of these is not the best solution. WE all need to look at our operation and ask, would I eat out of that? Should I ask someone else to eat out of that? How would it look to a prospective costumer if they see it? These simple questions will answer if we should use it or not.

VERY well said Friend!!

This is what it boils down to for sure!!!

HEHEHE

Like that pun "boil down" HEHEHE

[Russell Lampron]

325abn,

Maplehound said what I was trying to think of as a reply to your question. The other option I was thinking of was to line the tank with clear poly like you buy at a hardware store. The only concerns with that are, is it food grade and will it leave an off flavor in your syrup.

Russ

[VtSugarhouse]

Because of the lead problem we had years ago everything in the sugar house is stainless steel. All my storage tanks from 6,500 gallon to 1,500 gallon are insulated stainless steel. Evaporator is stainless, finishing rig is stainless, and even the draw off pails are stainless.
My bulk syrup barrels are stainless steel. Canada found out that using galavanized bulk Drums is not good at all. In 3 months there lead count was so high it was above the saleable level.
As for a poly or epoxy coating ...to my knowledge there is nothing on the maket which can be put on at home that is food grade.
My advise is to go stainless to start with and you will be saving money in the long run. At least you know it is food grade.

Good luck

[Haynes Forest Products]

I think this is a little overkill. Dont we already let the goverment into our business when we get inspected? I have Galvanize pipes in my house. dont cows drink out of stock tanks and then give milk that we drink? 5 years ago I was cooking on 2X6 English tin pans 100% pure lead solder. I was inspected and they were asking about rust in the pans not lead or Galvanize. I passed my inspection. Farmer down the road fill tank GALVANIZED inspector was on him about not having screens on the window of the sugar shack....flies. I bet if you showed up at Bascoms with bulk in a new garbage can they would take it.

[DS Maple]

I was at Bascom's a couple weeks ago and was rather surprised to hear them say that they would be more than happy to take bulk syrup in rusty 55 gallon drums. The words, "you would be amazed at the stuff people buy nowadays," were used somewhere in the consversation I overheard.
In reference to lead specifically, maple syrup isn't like drinking water. People consume very small amounts of it so if you are using a handful of galvanized buckets, or a stock tank here or there, I probably wouldn't lose too much sleep over the lead issue. Also, given the fact that the amount of lead in Washington, DC's drinking water supply is many times the legal limit, the authorities probably have bigger things to worry about than going after the maple industry right now.

[brookledge]

I would bet that the companies that buy and re-sell don't care to much about if it has lead or comes from rusty barrels. They are just going to pass it on. At the present I could have syrup that is loaded with lead and they won't know. But if I know it has high lead I'm not going to eat it or let my chidlren eat it.
Keith

[argohauler]

325,
I think each of us have to answer many food handling questions as we make syrup.
Step one is having the awareness to all the potential food handeling issues in all of our processes till it gets to the customers pancakes. Forums like this help all of us make better/ best products.
Many of the containers you describe ( stock tanks) have and are being used today to gather and store sap.

I would error on the side of clean and sanitary as possible. With the best equipment that we can afford.

Currently we syrupmakers are policing our own ranks and processes. Lets try to keep it that way!

Chris

Not here in Ontario. The Ontario Ministry of Ag. and Rural Affairs and the Canadian Food Inspection Agency has said NO galavanized, no copper, no brass, no tin, no lead solder. Stainless only.

They didn't like the steam hitting my galv. roof!

I wonder when aluminum will be banned because of alzheimers.

[jrthe3]

In PA the last i knew and it could have changed by know but the law was once the sap reached 50 brix it had to be in stainless i know a lot of people with just stainless syrup and galv. flue pans

[maple flats]

In NYS there is a max allowable for lead content. I was tested and was med low in the chart. I had 425 taps last year, 50 galv buckets, 3 galv stock tanks. The tanks were new enough that they had no lead in the solder but they were still galvanized. I will research the acceptable levels. I posted it last summer.

[maple flats]

"I got my test results back today. For lead I had 0.18 PPM or 180 PPB. The letter said that 500-2000 PPB could be reason for concern and an indicator that the source of the lead should be looked into. I was surprised the test showed nothing as for grade, volumn, or anything except lead. It seems they would evaluate if my quart was infact a quart and rate the color grade". This is a quote from my entry from summer 07 thread about being tested titled "my first time"
This is what the NYS regs were in 07, have not heard of any changes. The letter said that a flag would go up if you were over 2000 PPB. When the sample was taken by the inspector for NYS Ag and Mkts, I had 425 taps that year, 50 galv buckets, 2 galv stock tanks with lead free solder, and about 100 taps roadside where old lead from leaded gas could be and my 180 PPB was a good report. Since I have stopped using buckets and cut down to 1 galv tank, but increased to about 150 roadside taps

[Sugarmaker]

argohauler,
I understand how you must feel about this issue, since you have further restrictions in your area.

I felt the same way and am also concerned with my hobby business and the product we sell to customers.

What I found when I asked our state food inspection agency in PA to come to our sugarhouse and inspect us, was that at this time they are not checking for the items you have mentioned. They have a set of rules or guidelines that are not as strict as you have mentioned.

I stand corrected for making such a blanket statement concerning the rest of the worlds syrup standards. I will try to control my statements in the future.

Regards,
Chris

[gmcooper]

Chris,
Since you have done some checking with PA Dept ag food inspection I have a question thye might have answered.

We get down to Lancaster area a few times a year and at some of the farmers markets they have some of the darkest maple syrup I have ever seen. Sometimes it is labeled medium some times it has no label what so ever other than maple syrup. One glass jar about qt size when I picked it up to look at it sloshed around like colored water. ( the Asian lady at the booth gave me a nasty look ). I know most all PA maple producers make some very nice product and care very much about the syrup they make. Does the state have any grading/labeling laws for syrup?

Mark

[Sugarmaker]

gm,
I have not heard of anyone getting checked in PA for grade or density. But it doesn't take a expert sugarmaker to tell the difference between good thick medium and watery grade C. I have also seen some syrup at a local farm market that had some very dark syrup with no grade label. It was not PA syrup. It sat next to a producer that I know ( graded medium) and there was no comparison. Now from the consumer point of view they may not have a clue as to what grade medium looks like. I can use honey as an example. I have many folks ask for buckwheat honey which is strong and black as your hat.

I really can't answer your question with much authority. But I know in Ohio they do pull random samples and check grade and density.

Regards,
Chris

[gmcooper]

Chris,
Thanks for the info. I kind of thought that no one was checking as my dad has seen the same thing many times over the past 20 years. I'm sure it happens some everywhere once in a while but you really hate to see a potential consumer lsot because they bought someones garbage unknowingly.

Something for the PA maple associations to work on.

How are your bees doing? Dads and most everyones up here are really not building up well at all this spring. Most are just hanging on at best.
Mark

[Sugarmaker]

gm
The bees are doing real well I had to put on another super on two hives (brood in one and the other was full of uncapped honey. The other 4 hives are OK and seem to have brood and lots of bees. We are in for a cool spell which may hold them back a little? We just dont have a long (warm) season to make a lot of honey. Spring honey comes off early July and summer honey comes off in late Sept.

As far as syrup. Keep making and selling good syrup and educating your customers about grade and taste. If I had a dollar for every time I have been asked to explain grades and why some syrup is darker, I could buy that new rig:)
I made the mistake of making a nice grading bottle display in a east facing window, and the customers really like it!
Chris

[green4310]

We took some bulk over to Bascoms for open house. I noticed when the guy got finished with the sample he dipped out to test, he drank it after his initial taste. When he handed me my slip he said that it was some of the best tasting he had seen. I told him that I worked at it and he said "it showed". Well my hat size is a little bigger now.

[Jim Brown]

green4310:I will be sending you a PM

Thanks
Jim