tree size to tap, can health spouts be on smaller trees?

[markct]

i have been told that health spouts, the 5/16 diameter ones, get about 80 to 90 percent of the flow that normal ones do, so would it be reasonable to think that you could put them into a tree thats say 80 or 90 percent the normal diameter of i believe 12 inches, altho i have heard a few say 10, i dont know whats right???

[mountainvan]

I tap trees 10" in diameter with the 5/16 spile and have been since they came out. The older tapping guidelines had 10"-15" with one tap with the 7/16 spile.

[DS Maple]

I think that is probably a safe assumption. I use 5/16 spouts on everything except buckets, (that is only because I already owned over 100 7/16 bucket spouts,) and overall I think they work OK. I have been told that with smaller spouts you get less sap, but can put more spouts than normal on larger trees, thus making up the difference. Based on this, I would think that a 10" diameter tree tapped with a single health spout should be fine.

[ennismaple]

I'll tap a 10" tree with a health spout. They generally heal faster than a mature tree because they grow so rapidly. Just don't go much deeper than 1" with the tap hole.

[troes30]

I've been tapping as low as 10" also. The health spout is so much better for the tree. I have some holes from the 06' season that are barely visible. That was never the case with the old spouts. I also do not go to 2 taps until 18". Its just too much damage otherwise. Each hole leaves a 3" wide and 3 to 4' tall stain that will never run again.

[Dave Y]

While 5/16 health spiles run less volume per run they tend to stay open longer. Therefore the tree will produce the same amount as the larger spile. just over a longer period.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Last year, I placed a few taps within 2 inches or less of tapholes from the prior year. These were above, below and just above to right or left and I never hit anything but beautiful white wood and sap.

This is with the 5/16 taps, I never tried that with 7/16"

[Russell Lampron]

I will probably catch some flack for this but I tap trees that are 8" in diameter. I only use 5/16" taps for buckets and tubing. These small trees run good and heal fast. Some of the ones that I tapped last spring were healed so well that it was hard to find where the tap hole was in September.

Russ

[royalmaple]

Russ-

Your top notch. I've tapped some around my house 3-4 inches to see, healed up perfect and run pretty well too.

Anyone that does not believe in tapping small trees go take a ride up to our neighbors to the north. Go to a big operation, see what they use for guidlines. Pretty much if it has bark, drill it.

Trees aren't dying.

[markct]

i read online somewheres, i forget where, maybe this board, that before trees are of the proper size they had a low sugar content, is there any truth to this or an old wives tale, i dont have a sap hydrometer yet or i would go try it myself

[royalmaple]

I tested a 1.5 inch tree red maple here back in december it was 1.4%.
Same day I drilled a 8-10 inch tree and it was right at 2.0%. Smaller tree but decent crown. The 1.5 inch tree would have maybe 6 leaves on it in the summer. Reds are notoriously lower in sugar.

[Russell Lampron]

The 8" sugars that I tap run about 3%. I haven't tested anything smaller.

Russ

[cncaboose]

I'm with Russ on this. 2 years ago as I was in the process of purchasing my current sugarbush, I tested sap on about 800 young maples ranging from 2-8 inches in diameter and also tested a few of the 3-4 foot diameter wolf trees. I did this to help with thinning decisions in the over populated young trees. The young ones had way more variability but on the average tested just as well (between 3-4% with a few as high as 8% or as low as 1% on that particular test day) as their 200 year old parents. I wrote the sugar content right on the tree and can still read the numbers now 2 years later, though all the 1 % ones are gone. I tapped about 10 trees this past spring that were 8 inches. Some did well, even overflowing buckets on a couple of days, while others weren't very productive, kind of like my big trees. Some taps were great and others marginal, even on the same big tree. Bottom line: the young trees healed their holes in one season while adding a half inch to their diameter (also measured in the falls of '06 and '07) while my big guys will be 2-3 years healing holes. I thin around the young trees and lime their soil so they grow like crazy, so I don't think the sap from one 5/16" hole is setting them back much if at all. If anyone knows of any organized study that shows the effects of tapping 8-10" trees I would be most interested in seeing it.
I was super happy with the 5/16" spouts last year as we made 62 gallons of syrup from only 180 taps, all on buckets, and included 50 one tap trees less than 12" in diameter. Undertapping big trees was key, and reaffirmed the work done at Proctor, VT showing that 2 taps on a tree get almost as much total sap as 3 or more. I hope that this is helpful. Keeping track of some of this stuff has been really fascinating for me. Ian

[peacemaker]

i was on the same line off thinking as can u tap smaller with tree savers and after hearing this think i may try i had alot of trees that where close like 11 to 10 range may grab a bunch ... but the other thing i have been pondering is this mainly for buckets but in a small operation tap line also why not if using yhe new type tap bits .. drill all 5/16 first time around and then if u have to ream ream upto 7/16 and replace the taps ...

[Dave Y]

I would not ream to a7/16 hole after drilling a 5/16 If anything go to a 21/64 bit and drill 1/2" deeper. or better yet start with a 19/64 and the move up to a 5/16. I have done this with good results.

[super sappy]

Last year at Leaders open house they had an open discussion with Bruce bascom , Glen Goodrich and Peter (sp) Purrington. All Big producers. Peter purington said that he was tapping about 200 or so 8" trees on high vac & health spouts for several years now. The result They run fast and sweet. No noticable growth problem and his explianation was simple , teenage trees will take alot of punishment and recover quickly, just like people. It made sense to me, just thinking about my teenage years is painful but I came thru it ok in the end. -SS ............ Peace maker your PM is full

[peacemaker]

i fixed that didnt relize it was storing my sent ones as well

[twigbender]

Just a note on the difference in volume of sap from 5/16 compared to 7/16. The Univ. of Vermont conducted studies on this and found that the 5/16 produces, on average, 94% as much sap as the 7/16. The Univ of Mn study showed a 90 to 95% range on this, so there really isn't a whole lot of difference between the two unless you are talking hundreds of taps.

[maple maniac65]

I have trees tapped in the 4-6 diameter range. They are trees in an area that need to thinned. My thoughts are kill them before cutting them and get what you can out of them. The only problem is that they do not seem to die that quickly. Some have been tapped for 4 years now. It was mentioned here that young trees are like teenagers and bounce right back. I think there is truth to this because I really watch the trees over 30"dba. I have now gone to one tap per tree no matter what dba is.

[gmcooper]

I have tapped some smaller trees that were to be culled and some of them seem to do really well. Can't say for sure with tubing the sap flow I get from them but the trees seem to stay healthy enough.

Years ago I was at a maple meeting with a forester speaking on tree health and how tapping small trees was really bad. 3 days later I was at the foresters family's farm. We headed out into the woods by the house and about the 4th tree into the woods was 4-5" dia maple with a tap in it! The brothers do all the maple work and thier comment was if it is a maple it is getting tapped. They had several small trees in the area that were scheduled to be culled in a few years that were tapped. 10 years later that first tree was now 8" +/- and still there not much crown as it sets among 2'-3' trees.

[ibby458]

I've tapped trees as small as 5" and had different results in different spots. All were slated for thinning. Some of the roadside ones that I tapped with 7/16 cast iron spouts died that same summer. Most of the woods trees with cast iron spouts were just fine - usually healed over by next season. NONE of the 5/16 spouts seemed to have bothered the trees a bit.

THe smaller ones ran early in the season, but stopped early too. I didn't measure quantity or sugar content, but my impression was that it really wasn't worth the bother of tapping small trees if you have enough big trees unless you were going to thin them anyway.

[cncaboose]

I did some followup on this thread by emailing Peter Smallidge, Extension NYS forester at Cornell about this. He is my son's advisor there. He sent back a fascinating article on tapping by Brian Chabot, Director of the maple program at Cornell's research forest. He recommends measuring and using tree growth rates to calculate taphole depth and spacing, minimum tree tapping size and number of taps per tree. The summary advocates:
1. using no more than 1 tap per tree unless the tree is fast growing or very large;
2. a tap depth closer to 1 inch and never more than 2 inches especially in slow growing trees;
3. expansion of the tapping area vertically by 12-15 inches plus using the full tree circumference while spacing tapholes laterally by as little as 1 inch to allow more years for growth over old tapholes;
4. using a consistent tapping pattern that allows you to know the tapping location history over several years.
If anyone is interested in the full 5 page article I could forward it to you via email. It is in Microsoft Word format.

[maple flats]

I did some followup on this thread by emailing Peter Smallidge, Extension NYS forester at Cornell about this. He is my son's advisor there. He sent back a fascinating article on tapping by Brian Chabot, Director of the maple program at Cornell's research forest. He recommends measuring and using tree growth rates to calculate taphole depth and spacing, minimum tree tapping size and number of taps per tree. The summary advocates:
1. using no more than 1 tap per tree unless the tree is fast growing or very large;
2. a tap depth closer to 1 inch and never more than 2 inches especially in slow growing trees;
3. expansion of the tapping area vertically by 12-15 inches plus using the full tree circumference while spacing tapholes laterally by as little as 1 inch to allow more years for growth over old tapholes;
4. using a consistent tapping pattern that allows you to know the tapping location history over several years.
If anyone is interested in the full 5 page article I could forward it to you via email. It is in Microsoft Word format.
Yes, please PM it to me, or email to dklish@earthlink.net Thanks
Dave

[peacemaker]

same peacegame98@yahoo.com

[dhibbeln]

After reading the article that Ian so kindly forwarded, and various and sundry other posts on this subject my take on tree size to tap...

1) If its 4 inches or bigger tap it. If if dies, it needed to be thinned anyway.

2) If the tree is big enough that you think you can put two buckets on it, put two taps within one inch of each other. Issue is damage to tree and trying not to use same area.

3) Plan where to tap. Idea is to not reuse an area for a long time, say 30 years. This means you have to have simple method you can remember in your dotage and teach to whom ever follows you in the sugarbush.

4) Use small health spout.

5) Drill shallow - 1 inch max.

6) Use a vertical pattern vs. circumferencial - easier to rember and find holes.

7) Manage your sugar bush like a garden, get rid of invasive species.

8) Prune trees like as it it was an orchard,

9) Figure out some way to track production per tree and prune out the weak ones and open the canopy for the heavy producers.

10) Think in terms of decades, not years....

11) Think organic and compost the area around the base of the trees. It works for all other growing thing, why not maples. We did in the apple and peach orchards that I pruned putting my way through college...

I'd be curious on the what those with more time doing this than me have to say...

[sapman]

Wasn't the article by Brian Chabot in one of the recent Maple Digests? I recall reading it somewhere.

Tim