Another but different pre heater. Will this work?

[Mac_Muz]

I am dreaming of a large decorator tin like pop corn comes in for a pre heater. If I can get soft copper tubing, I would like to install a fitting on the pop corn tin, one at near the top and another near the bottom. I then would wrap the copper tubing many turns snuggly around the stove pipe, and then the cold sap filling the copper line as well as the large tin would warm and circulate from cold at the bottom into the copper, to heat and rise to the top over and over again.

A nick with a ice pick would allow the tin to drip into the pan at the back portion, and so fairly warm sap would flow from this tin after warm up time.

Later a valve of some sort could be solderd to the tin and have a better controlled dribble..

Oh I can see right now this will get out of hand as i might need yet another pop corn tin. The first one feds the second one, which is the hotter of the two by far..

Is this pure non-sence?

[325abn]

Build it and you will find out!!

[Mac_Muz]

Well no doubt you work for the ATF! LOL Oh yeah I can see it all now.. tubs copper tubing and me trying to say "No Really officers I am making sugar.. really clink clink......

[Sugarmaker]

MAC,
Sounds interesting! Send pictures. And let me know how it works!

Chris

[maple flats]

I would not trust it for lead. If you are looking for something try a cheap ss pot made in china or india, They could set on the partitions and do the same thing while being no chance of lead. I also doubt the tins of popcorn are water tight, I think the seams would leak more than you want flowing into the evap.

[Mac_Muz]

maple flats, The tins I have seen are simply crimped, no solders. Once i had one that had help potatoe chips. More recently some one gave us a gift tin with pop corn in it, so it is handy and rust free for the moment.

I don't know but maybe I will give it a try after the rig is up and running first.

It could be a project for next year though. I am right at the edge here for more than a few things, since I have no rig now that runs , but it is under construction.

I hadn't been planning to make sugar this year, but it fell into place , and I am bustin tail to get it up and ready in time.

One bad part is the wood. The wood I hope will work is slab white pine in borad length in a pile buried under 4 feet of snow. I know it will be frosted hard, and not so dry as it should be. I plan to burn it in lengths of 30 inches long or so, and will be forced to feed it like a mad man.

Dollars are real tight, and if work for hire happens it will have to be the first priority.

That won't stop the design from happening, but the copper and a little scrap of thermal banket might slow things down.

The copper must be able to come away from the tins as well for storage once the rig is down for summer.

But the new idea after I just posted seems plausable.

The idea that the cold pail is mounted near the stove pipe, over the rear pan corners. The hot pail is only fed by the cold one and copper tubbing must heat to get any hot sap to tranfer.

The hot pail is also located to the far side of a divided pan, so once the drip hit the rear portion, the flow will still be towards the gap in the first divider.

Wrapping the copper against the pipe should heat the sap enough to rise, so long as the cold pail is pretty full, and so should need attendance depending on how many gallons of sap the pails can hold. Insulating the copper should heat things up prettty quick.

BUT Then I have been known to be wrong!

It can't be possible that I would be the first one to try this could it?

[tessiersfarm]

why make the tube flow back into the tin, why not dirrectly into the pans?

[Mac_Muz]

Now that is a great question.. Indeed there is no need of a 2nd pail at all is there.

A single pail setting on the pan top corner with a copper wrap many times around the stove pipe, and then left to drip and sputter should do nicely huh?

So long as there is some sap in the pail, and heat to drive the copper line, it should produce only hot sap.

Thank you..

I wonder this now.

Once the copper line wrap exits the stove pipe apx at the same height the pail is, would you suppose bending the copper down, and then smartly back up in a "U" might be wise?

It seems to me the copper would be as hot as the sap, and to free fall from pail top height would tend to cool the drip, so if there is a turned down and then up again, the sap spitting out might then run down the copper tubing to the lowest point of the "U" and free fall a lesser distance and stay warmer.

Any down turn with out a up turn will start a syphon action and I don't think I want that.

[halfast tapper]

Have seen the stove wrap method many times. All they do is wrap about 3 turns around the pipe and go directly into the float box. If you don't have a float box on your pan then put a ball valve on end of line to regulate the flow into the pan , works pretty good and inexpensive.

[peacemaker]

i did that same method one thing i did find is that u need to be able drain the line i put a outside valve with a drain hole if not it boils in the line and blows out far and comes out burnt ... i didnt have a float box so i ran mine down the stack into a stainless can with a whole at the top sitting in the back corner of mypan ...

[maple flats]

Lead can come from many sources, not just solder. Many paints, inks and other finishes have lead, especially those made overseas. China is famous for this. Just look at the recent product recalls for toys with lead paint. A tin might not be scrutinized because the inside is (?) finish free, but what about the condensation that might fall back into the evap pans from the outside of the tin, where the fancy litho or other printing is?

[Mac_Muz]

I don't know what a float box is. The solders I plan to use are 50% silver. American made too.

I have come by some 3/8" copper but not enough, and 1/2" copper, and after reading just 3 turns , a bit more than I need.

I don't want burnt sap either.

I am a bit lost now.

Yesterday I bought a cheap 20 qt stainless pot, with a lid. Since then I drilled a hole on the side as close to the bottom as possible. I had a new fitting I never used, that is supposed to be a drain plug for a automatic tranny.

This fitting is thru bolted and has hex fittings on both sides and teflon washers on both sides. A smaller 1/8" pipe thread bolt is the stopper.

I replaced the stopper bolt with a 90 degree turn pipe thread adapter 1/8" pipe in to the pans new fitting, and the other end mates to 3/8" copper line.

This adapter to tubbing fitting is a strande device to me. it is a type of compression fitting, but has 2 small sealing rings instead of one. I was told this type can be removed over and over again, unlike the one piece compression fittings which are more common to me.

I bought one more fitting which will make the 3/8" pipe jump up to 1/2" pipe.
This is the more common to me fitting and once it is installed it is installed for ever.


WHY do I want to regulate the flow from the pail, into the copper, and then into the pan if the flow is hot?

How do I cool the copper line around the smoke stack when there is no more sap to heat in the copper tubing?

Here I was worried I might not have enough wrap, with 16 turns, and now i am worried I will burn the sap in the turns, and ruin what's in the pan....

[lpakiz]

Well, I am going to try about 6 turns of 1/2 inch copper tube around my 6 inch smoke pipe. I will gravity feed it from an old SS pool filter canister, holding about 30 gallons. I anticipate a shutoff at the tank and another at the pan. The tank shutoff will allow me to disassemble the device. The valve at the discharge end of the copper tubing will allow me to regulate the speed of the feed and still keep the coil full.
I will wrap the coil at the chimney with ceramic blanket if I need to increase the heat. If the coil gets too hot, I have made a 6 1/2 inch diameter sleeve which will slip down between the stovepipe and the coil to "insulate" it a bit, keeping the coil cooler. These factors depend on the evap rate, as the sap cannot be held too long in the preheater if the evaporator pan is not keeping up. I am around 5 Gallons per minute with my 2X3 homemade pan with the small induction blower off my wood furnace. I am hoping the gravity feed pressure will overcome the tendancy for hot sap to rise, as I envision the flow from the top of the coil to the bottom, then out to the pan.
If I am not even close in these guesses, I'll have to add or remove coils around the stove pipe. Sound reasonable??

Larry

[Mac_Muz]

Update in case any one is interested... Not to be confused with the questions in the post above.

I have come by 15 taps, and the pan is made and the dividers are made too, but not soldered yet. In fact I thing a little tig weld will happen first, proabably tomorrow, and then soldering full length so no rust can start between the divered fold at the bottom of the pan and also at each side.

The openenings are triangles 2.5 inch across and the same tall. The dividers will be installed so rthe openings are staggered. Which is typical, and you guys know, but a newbie might not. I didn't.

This leaves this pan with (3) 11.25" equal areas.

This pan is 33.75 inches long and 21" wide, with 6 inch tall sides and at the top there is a 3/4" turned out edge which is folded with another 3/4' fold under to stiffen and make the flaired edge as solid as it can be made of the 24 ga sheet steel it is.

I used the waste cutting from the dividers as they were just about custom fit to the top edge flairs as clips at the corners.
SInce there were just 2 dividers i used a little scrap from the pan making to make 2 more corner clips, mostly to make sure the corners are rugged and to get a finished look to the pan.

I bought a pot in 20 qts size, and fitted it as in the above post. I found a little scrap bar apx 1/8" thick and maybe 1.25" wide that can rest on the pan top edge, which i think I will make 2 clips for to hold, so it can come off with a tap of the hand. That should help support the 20 qt pail. (Big corn boiler/lobster pot).

Last night I de burred the 6 inch cut out waste, which was waste from the 6" smoke stake cut out. I re-cut that to be about 1/2 gone and left about 1/4" at the edge so it appears like a steel circle with one half gone.

I drilled a hold as dead center as I could and llayed it out on the stove door, which is waste from the door cut out. I placed it low on the 10"x10" square, and marked the bolt hole, and then drilled that in the door.

To be sure I was right I bolted the damper I just made to the door and marked that cut out to match. I then cut that same shape.

There was a smidgen extra when the damper was closed, so with a grinder i reduced some to form a mild point, like maybe if you were looking at a house with a 5/12 pitch. I hammered the point out, so there is a way with a stick to open and close the damper.

I found a 1/4" thick bar stock, apx 1" wide and maybe 10" long for a latch, and deburred that, bent over 1.5 Inches to 90 degrees, and rounded it well, so i can open this with a stick too.

From some more of the 1/2 circle cyt out which once was either the door, or the damper, I made a latch catcher, so the door can be held closed.

I bought.. yuk! 2 small hindges for $2.79 that i will weld to the barrel and the door.

The weather in my pooor opinion for here is still to cold to tap trees, so I still have time.

Today I hope to cut the opening in the barrel and fit the pan. I also hope to cut and weld 3 tabs to assist a 6" stainless steel hose clamp, and secure the 6" elbow for the stack.

Legs I hope happen on Sunday, and still I have no skis. I must have skis..

In the mean time since skis seem elusive, I might rig up adustable mounts so I can semi level the stove on the skis. i think if the bolts and mounts are so I can have 2 inches up and down from level I can probably come close to getting the whole thing sort of level.

None of this is pretty. I have already burnt the paint off the barrel, and so i think the first time i test fire this rig I will smear it with meat greases to burn the stove black, as no paints I know of will stay on red hot metals.

I am debating the effort vers cost to add a rim from the barrel as I cut it to be able to add fire brick as insulation. it would take 4 bricks next to the pan on each side, and take 7.25" of curled back pan to hold these one each side.

The cost is apx 12 bucks for the bricks, and I have no idea if bricks really add any insulation? Do they?

[Mac_Muz]

Larry where are you? Anywhere near Tamworth NH?

This is interesting as you plan a gravity feed and I plan to use heat to force sap up.

I like the idea of a sleeve to insulate. I have access to some 10" cold air return pipe I can make something like that with. That part of this house was replaced with bigger pipe last spring and i was told to throw it away. I threw it away in the pine shed.. Thaty stuff is pretty flimsey, but there is a lot of it.

I suppose if forcing up with heat doesn't work well I can invert the whole thing by raising the pot. good ideas.

I am not used to any fancy equipment, not that this is really, but it is a far cry from my old set up with a 24"x24" flat pan.

[tessiersfarm]

I am going to try to use 4 wraps (pipe I have) and gravity to drip into pan. If I need to I will buy more copper tubing.

I am feeding out of a 55 gallon tank (100 or so taps) into the pans, controlling the flow with a valve.

My plan is to run water through the pipe when the sap runs out just into a pail. When I am done boiling I heat water in the evaporator to wash with anyway.

I think an extra piece of stove pipe could be used between the tubing and chimney to cool the tubing or outside of the tubing to hold more heat in, whichever you needed at the time. obviously different size stove pipe.

Keep me posted, I am very interested in making this work for all of us.

[Mac_Muz]

Sometime i will come up with pics, but right now there isn't much to take pics of. Everyone here knows what I am just learning.

You see having a pail of water handy is something I hadn't had occur, and so now i can run the heat sap and make it rise to nill, point the copper tube away from the pan and let her blow steam, IF it does on the ground.

This rig has no shed what so ever this year. So I can blow heated water into these plowed up bankings anywhere i want, which with a little luck might reduce these monster piles of snow... man there is a lot of snow around here and pushed way back and many yards long, almost can't get in and or out of here as it is now.

[lpakiz]

Mac Muz-
I am in central Wisconsin and we have several weeks to go before tapping.
My thoughts on gravity feed include being able to elevate the feed barrel as high as necessary to push hot sap DOWN. I know it naturally wants to rise. Not sure if this is feasible, but I'll get back on here when I try it.
My arch is home made from old 8 inch bridge I-beams. It has three U shaped "sections" each being 8 inches high, When I am done for the year, I can step inside the stove and lift and carry each U-shaped layer of stove back behind the shed.
So, trying to be more efficient, I am "lining" the inside of the top I beam with thin metal to form an air channel. I will blow combustion air into the rig from the rear at both sides of the smoke stack. Buddy of mine will bend some exhaust pipe into a forked "header'" and I'll plumb it in near both sides of the stack. Combustion air will travel from rear to front in both sides of the inner I-beam channel and exit into the firebox, via "nozzles". My thinking was to "insulate" with combustion air. Thing got so hot last year you had to walk past briskly or risk burning up your pants!! Does anyone know how much (%) of air goes under grates and how much into flames?

BTW, I work for our local Highway Department (Yep, I'm sick of plowing snow!!) I had the thought of using old bent and broken steel highway sign posts for grates. We get them by the dozen in winter. Usually there is several feet of straight post left after someone hits it. I think one could bandsaw out all the irons needed to make a grate floor. Posts are about 3 inches wide and kinda U-shaped with an extra flange, and LOTS of holes!! Lay them side by side on a frame and I think you would do fine. If they burn out, visit the Highway Department again. Oh, and great idea to heat water with the preheater for cleanup--
Larry

[maple flats]

Look up Johnny Cuervo's pictures. He has a preheater he made and someplace on here he explained how it works. He says it works very well.

[maple flats]

Try one like Johnny Cuervo. Here is a link to his site. http://flickr.com/photos/57535094@N00/sets/72157601539320490/

[Mac_Muz]

I don't have trees tapped yet myself, but today sure looks like a heck of a day to have at it here. But I am not ready, and I don't think one good day means much, other than I bet the sap is running like mad.

perhaps my thinking is all wrong. it might very well be.

I looked but can't say i understand all I saw in the photobucket pics.

The system there shows a gravity feed, and I have been told the danger there is a vapor lock, which i can see as possible. Heated sap running back up to the pail.

The set up I had in mind isn't gravity fed, and this idea could be all wrong.

But the idea was to have the pail rest on the back corner of the pan, near the smoke stack, then run copper tubbing down hill to the smoke stack and wind the copper tubbing up the smoke stack.

The cold sap will be level with what ever the pail level is then cold.

As the sap is heated by the smoke stack, it will want to rise and draw more cold sap, as warmed sap runs out the tubbing into the opan or perhaps into something else.

This set up can't vapor lock so far as i can tell.

On the other hand it might be ALL wrong..

Another problem is I will be burning slab wood, in part to get rid of a large pile of it. It hasn't been covered for winter and IS buried under 4 feet of snow and board length. It seems to be 5 years old and weathered dry, but not sheltered air dry.

I had planned to burn it as long as the barrel will take. Apx 30" to 33 inches long. I hadn't planned to create a combustion baffel really, but I can if I must, and I can create a smaller fire box if I must.

I am coming to the idea I should want a smaller fire box in the front of the stove so the front of the pan is the hottest part of the pan.

I am also coming to the idea I don't want boiling hot sap entering the pan from the pre heater, and perhaps the pre heater is more a pre boiler my way.

So I might want cooler than boiling sap to enter the pan and create a cold flow to hot, by the action of cold is denser and hot is lighter, so cold sap will push hot sap to the front of the pan.

This is what I think I am learning here.

In the pictures i see a joint compound bucket with a toliet tank float. The bucket hangs up high. I assume the owner pours cold sap into that bucket, but then confuses me as i can't see what the float does then.

I must be missing a detail. If he pours sap into that bucket and the float comes up it appears to stop any more flow by graivty, as it seems to me a high float will shut off the valve.

I know carbs on cars and motor bikes and I know about toliets.. So some where I am sure I am missing a detail.

[SGSyrup]

I realize this thread is old... just reading over it and, Mac, I believe the descending float flips the toggle switch which turns on the pump in the basin on the floor.

[Mac_Muz]

Yeah it was my thread from last year. I am going to re-work the idea from last year too..

last year i coiled copper around the stack pipe and ran the copper low out of a cheap ss pot going high, so sap boiled in the copper, and spit boiling hot sap into the main pan.

That worked pretty good, but the troubles came getting the copper off the stack then everything was hot.

The plan this year is to weave the copper line back and forth, but not circle the stack.

Last year i had the circle effect open, so I could wind the coil on and un-wind it off, but with thye hot stack it was really hard to get the copper off and not get burned.

This time i should be able to swivel the pot away, loosen the fitting and turn the copper weave down, and catch the little bit in the copper into some other pot.

That is if I ever get any run ....

[SGSyrup]

I hope your setup works. I'd love to see some pictures of the preheater when you're done. I'm planning on building an oil tank arch for next year and all innovative ideas will be greatly appreciated.

[Mac_Muz]

This link goes back about 4 pages currently in this room. It has ideas I made up last year. The only change this year will be my preheater tubing.

Next year many things will change because I have material on hand not to build a shack. Right not the metal roofing is buried under 3 feet of snow and I can't get to it with out more hard labor than I am willing to do.
http://www.mapletrader.com/community/showthread.php?t=5496

There are 2 other threads for other in this room showing the preheater plan I will copy sort of this year. I want to copy the back and forth winding, but rather than allow that to flow by graviety with a valve I don't have, the way mine will work is graviety will hold a level in the tubing and heating will force the hot sap up and spit it into the pan a a boil.

It did that last year, but when the sap was gone i was hard pressed to pull that copper off the hot stack. I did it wearing gloves, but it was fierece work.

I am sorry I can't recall the threads.

Infact I plan to re-used the copper I used last year. The deal will be I heat it red hot, a dull red in day light, which will soften the copper.

Then I will bend it in a back and forth mannor so it fits the stack closely 1/2 way around. It will look like lots of "S" turns, and after all the "S"'s are made I will form it to be 1/2 circle at each individual "S". A rack if you will of "S"'s.

Maybe someone else will recall the 2 other threads and you may learn what I did not so long ago.

Don't forget to click that link, but it is pics rich, so be prepared to wait some if you are on dial up like me.

[SGSyrup]

Yes. I looked at that page earlier. So the only think you'll do different this year is wind it back and forth?
I think I've seen those other threads you mentioned, too. Thanks.

[Mac_Muz]

Yup thats all different for me this time.. I have just around 40 gallons of sap for the first time this season, and I can't say if I will be getting much more.
Doesn't look like it.

I have nearly 40 buckets out and nothing like last year which was poor is happening. I had only 15 buckets last year.. I made 3 gallons last year and doubt unless something happens I can meet that this time..

I collected yesterday and checked today, and it looks grim.

[KenWP]

If the weather picks up Mac you could still get some sap. Its going to freeze tonight here good so will reset the trees.