questions on a cross-flow backyard rig

[hydrogeo]

Last season I picked up a really nice 24"x48" flat bottom cross flow syrup pan from Bascoms that I am building into a backyard rig. The pan has a single divider. The arch will essentially look like a Waterloo Backyarder with an 8" stack. I will also have a pre-warmer So here my questions:

1:anybody have a ballpark sense what the evaporation rate will be? For the last few years I have run a barrel-style rig with a 19" x 36" four divider flat pan, and I the absolute best I could get was 7 gals/hour.

2:will a gradient set up with only two compartments or will I have to run it as a batch pan?

3:anybody have any success adding dividers?

Chickadees and Phoebes are really singing this morning, sugaring season is a coming!

Thanks

[jtthibodeau]

Last season I picked up a really nice 24"x48" flat bottom cross flow syrup pan from Bascoms that I am building into a backyard rig. The pan has a single divider. The arch will essentially look like a Waterloo Backyarder with an 8" stack. I will also have a pre-warmer So here my questions:

1:anybody have a ballpark sense what the evaporation rate will be? For the last few years I have run a barrel-style rig with a 19" x 36" four divider flat pan, and I the absolute best I could get was 7 gals/hour.


Thanks

I use a Vermont 2x4 with four sections in the rear having drop flues and two flat bottom sections in the front. My usual rate (No blower) is 10.5 to 12 on a good day. However, I'm still experimenting on the pre-heater setup and such for improvement.

I've been reading this forum for over a year and just realized it's my first post. Hello to all you regulars.

[sap line chewer]

with a blower and preheater pan we were bioling off a average of about 12 to14 GPH. My arch was made out of a 500 gal propane tank.

[WF MASON]

You could drop in two dividers making it a four section pan, if the niter is a 1/4'' thick inside , that might be a challenge. If the top is necked in from all sides ,that can make dropping a 48" long partition down that opening a problem to.

[hydrogeo]

Thanks guys, I would be really happy with a sustainable 10 gph! WF Mason, if I can get partitions down into the pan how would you recommend attaching them? Solder? Or if I fit them tight enough do I not need to attach them?

[Mac_Muz]

I hope this is ok... I am presently building a pan right now. It is 21 wide and 33 and 3/4" long to fit a 55 gallon drum, I am also building right now.

There is steel left over enough to make one and or two dividers, but I have no idea what these do.

Could some one explain the basics for these and say if they need to be sealed, how any openeings should be made? I am lost.

In a few moments I will be bending the cut mild steel pan sides up and making a rim, to tig weld.

I will have the option to make a divider if it seems like something a little back yard rig should have. mac

[hydrogeo]

My current rig (not the one with the cross flow pan) is almost identical to what you're building. Mine has three dividers. The dividers allow you to run like the bigger rigs in that a gradient sets up so you can draw off a little at a time instead of taking the whole pan all the way to syrup and then starting from scratch again. It speeds things up a bit and makes better grade syrup. (not that it really matters for us backyard folks anyway). If you look at a professionaly built pan many of them have each compartment bent up separately and the compartments are then combined to form the pan. This helps prevent the bottom from warping and therefore helps prevent burning the pan and lets you run a shallower depth.

The pan I am going to run this year is a 24" by 48" off a cross flow style evaporator, maybe a 4'x12'. This pan only has a single divider, so I suspect I won't be able to get a gradient set up. Thats why I want to add two dividers to make a four section pan. I'm just not sure if you can solder a divider in and have it hold up. I'm sure tig would work but unfortunately I don't have access to a tig, and my mig would burn right through the pan.

Mac_Muz, if your pan doesn't work out well you may be able to use steam tray pans as others on this forum have done. I have a good friend that has a cinder block arch with three steam tray pans. He ladles the sap between them, finishing on the front pan. His evaporation rate is essentially the same as my current 21 x 34 barrel rig.

[Mac_Muz]

Do dividers get sealed all the way across the bottom and up both sides?

Do they get gates or valves?

Is specific gravity enough to have heavy sugar water on one end with new sap in the other?

Is this even a valid idea with such a small pan?

My other pans in years past were 24" x 24" which over hung the barrel somewhat more than this 21" x 34 & 3/4" pan will.

Yes in the past counted gallons into the pan and stopped adding at apx 40 gallons. There were some tricky moments draining the sugar water near the end too. Pulling a pan with 1 gallon + by eye, off a fire is real trickey with out getting hurt and or burning the pan. The timing was critical..

[hydrogeo]

No valves, sealed on the bottom and one side, open at opposing ends. Think maze to make the longest route through the pan.

Yes, a gradient between raw sap and syrup sets up quite nicely on a small pan with dividers. The main problem is you have to draw off before you go all the way to syrup, as to wait that long makes it really easy to go too far (don't ask how I know).

On my barrel rig I draw off slightly before its syrup and finish on my turkey fryer with a stainless pot. Are you just counting gallons to know when its syrup? I bought a meat thermometer for less than 10 bucks that works great. I also learned the "sheeting" method from an old-timer. Boy, some of those old sugarmakers know their stuff.

[Mac_Muz]

In the past with a single undivided pan, to me it made sence to count gallons in to get 1 not quite syrup out, and let the fire go down. I had a drain spigot to help, but I had to move fast as sometimes the fire was still to big to allow the pan to go dry. Pulling off the pan was no fun with the fire blazing up, and so the spigot helped lighten the pan before I had to lift it.

My aim was to have about 2 gallons in the pan at the end, so I could place that sugar water in a lobster pan and finish it on a kitchen stove.

Judging how much is in a 24"x24" pan isn't easy for me.

This pan with also have a drain to do more or less the same thing.

Since this pan is as long as the barrel and will just sit on the edges of the barrel when i cut the barrel to pan fit tomorrow, I am sill interested in say 2 dividers.

There is steel enough for 2, so I could solder in 2 dividers like you say, but what is the gap distance?

This steel is thinner than I expected. I called and was told the store had 3'x5' sheets in 20 ga and 22 ga. When i got there I found the info was wrong and the steel is 24 ga.. That messed up the tig welding as the power setting is so low it won't show looking thru a bucket and so the welding was like being blind. It is welded and the edges at the top are folded back and doubled under themselves now.The welds are not pretty. I plan to make sure there is no leaks, which i checked holding a flashight in the pan corners, but still I plan to solder these weld on the inside of the pan with lead free solder.

It won't be much more to add dividers. Is there a formula to go by, a in general rule of thumb?

This pan is 21" w x 6" t x 34.75" long.

It sure would be nice to drain off closer to syrup, and just add more fresh sap, and never lift the pan off untill the last batch.

[Mac_Muz]

hydrogeo ,

Well I can answer one of your questions. You can expect solder to hold so long as you can solder what ever the steel is.

So long as the pan doesn't go dry the solder will stay where you put it. The only risks of un-soldering comes when the pan gets to be to dry, and fire is exposed to solder and stainless steel/mild steel/copper.

In my case since the whole rig is likely to never be really level as it will be on snow and on skis, the danger comes when the pan level is low and the flat bottom could be not fully covered with sap.

As a side note the side walls on my pan are 6 inches tall, but I don't expect to have over 3 inches of sap depth ever. Risks come at probably having under 1/4" sap level nearing the end of a boil off..

On my old pan which was brazed with brass i worried a little bit about that too. One place might be just covered with 1/8th inch while another place would have over 1 inch of sap.

Just incase you miss it, I have questions in the post directly above this one.

[hydrogeo]

By gap distance I assume you mean divider spacing? Most pans have the dividers equally spaced. So with two dividers you would end up with three equal compartments running length-wise in your pan. Hope that helps. Like I said, my little pan with three dividers (four compartments) works exceptionally well. I just need something that can handle more capacity. FYI, a 24"x24" pan holds about 2.5 gallons per inch of depth.

Now a question for you, I would be soldering stainless to stainless. Is there a trick to wetting the stainless to get the solder to stick? Special flux?

[Mac_Muz]

Ouch.. I am asking about the end gap between the bitter end of the divider and the side of the pan wall. Should the gap be 1" wide open, or less. That 1" is just a loose figure in the air to assist in my question. Since I am not doing well articulating, which is my fault, I need to know how much flow room there is as a gap, the sap must flow around.

That could be anything, as i have no idea what is standard and or what is custom.

I have never soldered stainless steel. My best guess is tinning solution brushed on both pieces to be soldered would be a good idea. A tinning solution made for stainless. I silver solder in jewelry quality, and it foams up and becomes chrystal like as a crust which melts and helps flowing silver solder. I am not sure that type of flux will work on stainless or not, but it will take a very high heat around 1,600 degrees F.

Jewelry silver solder isn't the mild silver solder found in hardware stores, which has a lower silver content.

If it were me trying to solder ss I would try to tin the smaller item before I tried to solder it to a pan.

Since I have never soldered ss, I would try to tin a scrap piece first too.

Once I could tin scrap, I would tin the part, and then with flux in the pan, clamp the part at least in 2 places and then add heat to the bottom side of the pan as solder is attracted to heat.

At that same time I would add more solder at the seam where the part an the pan meet and try to flow that under the part, using heat to pull the solder.

A common plumer torch with map gas is maybe what I would use, or oxy acetelene turned on low. Not much of a sharp blue flame. More a white feather of a flame.

[hydrogeo]

Thanks for the great solder explanation. I have an oxy acetylene torch that I can try. Think I'll try some scrap first. Regarding the gaps, my pan just has the corner on one end of each divider folded back and soldered, leaving about an inch from the end of the divider to the side of the pan.

[WF MASON]

If your pan from Bascoms is soldered then solder in the partitions in, if its welded
then tig weld in the partitions or have it done. Never use a flame torch soldering stainless. The solder that is there will run out and ruin the pan.
Dividers/partitions are spaced evenly.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Bill,

How are things for you, very busy I assume?? Are you cranking out a lot of pans and small evaporators??

[Mac_Muz]

What tools are used to solder in stainless?

I am not working stainless, but I would be curious just the same.

Perhaps the hardest project for me so far with 50/50 tin lead, was on a musket. The owner soldered a "T" shape tab to the barrel in 3 places and then inlet the "T" shapes in the stock wood.

When he drilled for pins, one drill hole nicked the T, and left a half hole.

So this is where the project came to me. The wood now being inlet pretty much ment that the T had to remain exactly where it was, or more wood would have to be removed.

So I used a few tricks up my sleeve to heat sink off heat and used brass brazing rod to build up the "T". That was back about 1989, and so far as I know that musket is still in working order.

Of course none of this is stainless. It was just the hardest soldering related work I ever had to do.

With silver soldering in jewelry the solders are in ranges of hard to soft. On large work, where many items will be soldered you begin with the hardest solder and work to the softest. The hardest solders are just below the melting point of the sterling.

With silver it is all about spotless clean, or the solder simply beads up and refuses to flow.

I can see stainless doing that, but only in my mind.

[Pete33Vt]

Alot of people I know that deal with stainless use sodering irons. Of course everything has to be clean, the right fulks etc. etc. And they also use a heat sink to control warping. My next investment is a tig torch so I can do alot more stainless work. Maybe set-up a little shop to do one of a kind productions from maple traders!!!

[Mac_Muz]

I got to see Bill's set up today, ova' thar in Maine... I got to meet Pete too, but Pete is the quiet type, and didn't say much, prrr prrr prrr..

So I was able to get some taps and filters, meet Bill, and his cat, and he showed me all that high tech stuff that goes into a good rig, not like my junk.

Best of all, he shared the what not to do's in making up my pan. I can go with confidence that adding 2 dividers and leaving a gap of 1.5" is probably the right thing to do.

No doubt he will come on here and make claim to me yers truely bein' a talker! I can surely talk.. he was kind enough to allow to pretend to be listening. He was supposed to be cutting and fabricating a new evaporator..

Thank you Bill....

[hydrogeo]

Thanks for the advice on soldering, I was going to try it with a torch. My pan is soldered so I will try to hunt down an old-style soldering iron that I can heat up with my oxy-acetylene torch. Anybody know of a source for these? I can just see the look on the guy at Ace Hardware's face when I ask for one.

Pete33, I've also been drooling over a tig, but I just bought a plasma cutter so it will have to wait another year. The budget (aka wife) allows one big shop purchase per year.

[Grade "A"]

here is one, I found mine on ebay. http://cgi.ebay.com/KESTER-SOLDER-IRON-TWIST-HANDLE-SOLDER-IRON_W0QQitemZ220202323347QQihZ012QQcategoryZ39728 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Just exactly how do one of these irons work?? I assume you heat them up red hot with something like propane, but never used one??

[hydrogeo]

Thanks GradeA. Ebay to the rescue again. Any tips on how to use these things?

[3% Solution]

Brandon,
What no sap to boil??
The irons are heated until they start giving off a greenish color (they are not red hot).
They have to be clean or they won't work.
They are placed onto the area to be soldered, then solder is put on the top of the iron towards the tip.
The solder will melt (just like when sweating pipes), as the solder melts the iron is pulled along the surface and more solder is added onto the iron as needed.
When the iron cools it is heated again.
Of course, a special flux is used.
Not that I have used an iron, but the sheetmetal guy that I go to uses one.
It's pretty neat.
Hope that helps!!

Dave

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Dave,

Thanks for the explanation. The only solder I have ever done was copper water pipe.

No sap, it's too cold.

[Russell Lampron]

I have used one of these soldering irons before and like Dave said watch the color. It is possible to overheat one.

[brookledge]

You can get large electric irons that are nice because you never have to stop to reheat but otherwise those are the type of irons that are better than using an open flame from a torch. Like I have said in other post if you are trying to repair an old pan that is leaking that type of iron will do the best job vs. a torch
Keith