Any commercial operators don't RO?

[berkshires]

I was having a conversation with someone from out West about sugaring. I said i don't use RO, and they mentioned their favorite place to get syrup when they're in New England, and how this place does use RO. They asked if that was okay, and I said of course, everyone selling syrup and looking to make money uses RO. They wouldn't be able to compete otherwise.

That got me wondering, do any of you know of any commercial operations that don't use RO?

Gabe

[ennismaple]

The largest producer I know not using RO is 3000 taps - and he's so sick of boiling all day that despite all past refusals to get an RO he has now said he'll have one for next year. The math on fuel consumed and hours boiled just doesn't make sense past the hobby operation stage.

[ecp]

Depends on what you definition of a commercial operation is, but there are still people out there with 3 and 4 thousand tap operations that do not use RO's. On the other hand there are people with 17 buckets that use RO's. In terms of production RO's are the 3rd most profitable piece of equipment if you ask me.... so naturally people tend to move towards them.

[Jgranat]

Depends on what you definition of a commercial operation is, but there are still people out there with 3 and 4 thousand tap operations that do not use RO's. On the other hand there are people with 17 buckets that use RO's. In terms of production RO's are the 3rd most profitable piece of equipment if you ask me.... so naturally people tend to move towards them.

You got me curious enough to ask what #1 and #2 are?

[ennismaple]

I'd say new tubing is the only piece that's close on profitability to an RO. It generally pays for itself in a single season. A good vacuum pump is probably up there with new tubing.

For our operation, if we weren't on RO we'd need 9x the wood. So we'd burn 100 full chord per season instead of 10. Even if you cut and stack that yourself that's 90 chord @ say $100/chord = $9000. That takes time away from other things in the woods, which would have a measurable cost. Then we'd have to boil 9x more so say another 900 hours spent boiling (which isn't really possible in a short season) and if you assign a cost of $20/hr for your labour to that it's another $18k so without adding costs to anything except fuel and labour we're at $27k per season savings - which pays for the RO. I know of producers without RO who call it quits early because they run out of ambition or firewood and so they miss days at the end of the season, which is also lost revenue.

My list would be:
1. RO
2. Vacuum pump
3. New Tubing

[Andy VT]

Fun little discussion. I know a couple of 2000 to 3000 tap producers who don't use RO. In both cases it is primarily because they are convinced RO ruins the flavor. If there were a significant number of consumers who also believed this (whether true or not), they could probably charge more and make it worth it, but they don't charge more as far as I know. Somewhere on the internet a few years ago I found a consortium of no- and low- RO producers, which I can't find now, but it was primarily near and around Vermont and New Hampshire I think. And I know of another place whose whole mission is to experience the old way of doing it, with horse team and sled and all. Obviously all of these are small entities and I don't even know their business names, but they produce syrup with intent to sell.

To me, charging extra for no-RO would make no less sense than charging extra for organic. Both are legitimately more expensive to produce, both are confusing to the consumer, neither can be proven to be better or worse, etc.

That said, geez, use RO! I haven't yet but it's on my short list. Even if you have all the free timber in the world, so much firewood processing time!

[BAP]

Got to remember, a lot of syrup was made before RO’s were invented. We had around 12-13,000 taps with 5,000 on buckets and no vacuum when we got our first RO in 1982. Both RO and vacuum was just starting to be used at that time.

[Scm]

Fun little discussion. I know a couple of 2000 to 3000 tap producers who don't use RO. In both cases it is primarily because they are convinced RO ruins the flavor.
It does not RUIN the flavor, but it does change it. That is a fact. The debatable part is how much it changes it.


To me, charging extra for no-RO would make no less sense than charging extra for organic. Both are legitimately more expensive to produce,....
The only reason organic syrup is more expensive is because of the expensive and time consuming certification process. Conventional (questionable) foods are rewarded with less regulations and lower prices. Sad really.


both are confusing to the consumer, neither can be proven to be better or worse, etc.
The average consumer is clueless as to what RO is, so I wont touch that. But, there is nothing confusing about Organic. It means NO chemicals allowed in the process. That is important to some people.

[Andy VT]

BAP, that's true, but wasn't syrup around $35 a gallon retail in 1982? If so that's $116/gallon equivalent today. I think I could make non-RO syrup for that!

[buckeye gold]

I am just a hobby guy with 150 taps and no RO, but I confess there are days I would love to have one. This past season I had two different days I had more sap then my old body could stand to boil and I dumped a total of 200 gallons of sap. Most days I am just fine and I spend the whole day boiling when I get big runs. I'm retired and I don't mind, but at 70 years old I don't hold up on these long hauls like I used to. SOme will tell me go get an RO and ask why I haven't. Well I am a tight wad and everything I have is paid for and I don't want to spend the money. I quit making to sell 3 years ago and give all my syrup away now, so every dollar I spend is unrecovered cost. Call me stubborn, but that's my choice. If I was expanding and selling for profit, I'd invest in an ro. Just with 150 taps I burn as much wood in 6 weeks as my house does all winter. I don't mind the work, but I'm getting there. I used to believe it compromised the taste, but I don't believe that anymore

[Wannabe]

This past season I had two different days I had more sap then my old body could stand to boil and I dumped a total of 200 gallons of sap.

Is there anybody close enough that you could sell sap to when you get overwhelmed with it? Takes a lot of stress off of thinking you HAVE to boil it all.

[ecp]

You got me curious enough to ask what #1 and #2 are?

This will probably sound the howls here so take it with a grain of salt. For me production wise #1 would be a proper tubing system and a vacuum pump, and #2 would be monitors and using them. To me and RO increases profitably not production. Yes, I use an RO and some people would say I go high concentrate (by todays equipment I do not) but I would put excess money into the woods not the sugar house because that is where the money is made.

Take this for an example. If you were setting up lets say a 5000 tap woods, you would be way farther ahead to put money into a good vacuum pump, proper tubing set up, and monitors and sell sap than buying an RO.

[ennismaple]

It does not RUIN the flavor, but it does change it. That is a fact. The debatable part is how much it changes it.
You can overcome that by modifying how you boil. Adding more flat pan or deepening the sap in your pans allows for more caramelizaton. RO means shorter boils which means less off-flavours caused by burnt nitre.