Incredible Scam Story

[Andy VT]

Crazy story of Bassett Maple ordering a Smoky Lake evaporator to copy it, smash it, and demand to then return it.
Wow!
I think it wouldn't bother me quite as much if he ordered it to copy it, and ate the cost himself. But wow. Lie, smash, and return. Wow.
I confess I have mixed feelings about sharing this because I don't want to be a tattle tale and I suppose there is the slight possibility Jim is lying, but I also have to say I don't think he is lying. Do with it what you will but wow. I guess it nets out to I think the consumer needs to know this story, and I don't think Jim would make this up, and so I'm passing it along.
https://youtu.be/S_BXjnrj-kY?si=kFwlsnNCAolQK-Ny

[ADK_XJ]

Yikes, that’s horrible- if you’ve followed SmokyLake’s development and growth at all you’ll know they are the real deal. This only accentuates the fact that they are the standard of quality to be copied/ripped off by others.

[Scm]

Yikes, that’s horrible- if you’ve followed SmokyLake’s development and growth at all you’ll know they are the real deal. This only accentuates the fact that they are the standard of quality to be copied/ripped off by others.

I hope no one copies their 3/16" tubing formula. That stuff is a nightmare to deal with. Way too soft. Very hard to get onto fittings without crushing it.

[ebliese]

I actually watched the video about this incident before I read this thread. Sad to see.

[ADK_XJ]

I hope no one copies their 3/16" tubing formula. That stuff is a nightmare to deal with. Way too soft. Very hard to get onto fittings without crushing it. I didn’t realize they had their own tubing product, I guess my post was more referring to their manufactured products like evaporators and such.

[johnallin]

Crazy story of Bassett Maple ordering a Smoky Lake evaporator to copy it, smash it, and demand to then return it.
Wow!
I think it wouldn't bother me quite as much if he ordered it to copy it, and ate the cost himself. But wow. Lie, smash, and return. Wow.
I confess I have mixed feelings about sharing this because I don't want to be a tattle tale and I suppose there is the slight possibility Jim is lying, but I also have to say I don't think he is lying. Do with it what you will but wow. I guess it nets out to I think the consumer needs to know this story, and I don't think Jim would make this up, and so I'm passing it along.
https://youtu.be/S_BXjnrj-kY?si=kFwlsnNCAolQK-Ny

Looks like good old fashioned competition to me...
The design issue is absolutely no different than what SL did to the rest of the evaporator manufacturers...only so many ways you can draw a circle.

This is America, there will always be someone nipping at your heels...now it's SL's turn. Early on he was the cheapest guy on the block, now it's not the case.
Jim S. needs to quit blowing his own horn and thinking he's better than the rest of the maple industry, an industry that's been at it for 100 years plus, I'll add.

SL caters to smaller producers, with You Tube videos, etc, but so does Leader-H2O, CDL, Lapierre (sp), and everyone else.
There is a reason they're not on this board...the drama was a little hard to take.
Your mileage may vary.

[Andy VT]

I do see that side of it, and that is why I mentioned that it's not so much the copying...
There's always a place for knockoffs, and anyone in business of making things has to plan for the existence of knockoffs, and I don't necessarily agree that making a knockoff makes you a parasite.
But once you lie and cheat and scam, basically attempted theft, you have crossed a serious line, and I do think it is good for the consumer to know that's who they're dealing with once that line has been so clearly crossed.

I guess in short, I agree with you until we get to the part of attempted stealing (stealing the shipping both ways and stealing the new condition of the item by way of a blunt object)

Andy

[mainebackswoodssyrup]

John makes a great point about what SL likely did to first get started. I imagine they had an old arch and looked at ways to improve it. At some point, they made a significant investment in their business to become a player in the game so don't take that away from them. But they should expect some competition. They are more of mid-range price point which still is of value to the industry. I have some of their stuff and will likely have more down the road. They make good stuff. And they have put together a good marketing campaign.

The attempt to scam with a return and then falsifying the damage is crossing the line for sure, assuming all that did happen. He should have just ordered it and considered it start up costs for whatever venture he was on. And yes - through some brief conversations/questions I've had with Jim about some of his equipment, he does come across as a little arrogant. And pretty short-fused from past posts on here.

[Super Sapper]

I know Jim and he is a perfectionist. He strives to build the best products he can and to improve on what already exists. I think that he expects competition but when someone orders something under an assumed name and tries to return it for reasons that keep changing it crosses the line. He eventually damaged the arch intentionally and tried to claim shipping damage. According to the video, he also wanted Jim to keep this quiet so nobody would find out.

Hopefully people can read the information and make their own decisions on it. We are into the time of year when people are getting antsy to get going and tend to argue a little more on here. Happens every year, though at a much lower rate than most websites. I really enjoy this site as everyone is very helpful and respectful of each other.

[buckeye gold]

Copying is a form of compliment and every trade has it. However, the deceit and deliberate damage, lying and cloak and dagger stuff is B.S. I understand Jim being P.O. the guy was trying to take money out his pocket by deliberately filing false claims. Actually I wonder if Jim could pursue legal charges. If it involved shipping it might be mail fraud. This is assuming it's true, which I believe it is or JIm would not have gone on youtube with it. Falsely posting that video would be libelous if not provable. Anyway, we don't really need the drama. But it's a fair warning to check out whomever your doing business with.

[ADK_XJ]

This is an unusual thread for this forum but also a strange situation…I feel compelled to follow up to say that copyrights and trademarks are laws, they are long standing provisions to protect business owners who put their own effort and money on the line to make something. They have real implications in a court of law, just like destruction of property or fraud.

It’s so hard to make something of quality. It’s so easy to sit back and judge. If any one of us was personally defrauded by someone we’d be furious and would pursue recourse.

I’ve dealt with Jim and his company several times, as have sugaring friends. They are accommodating, knowledgeable and professional. You cannot look at their inventory of products and say they haven’t evolved the industry with new techniques and ideas. They have every reason to be proud of what they’ve built and protect it, it’s their right and we’d all do the same thing.

[Scm]

Copyrights and trademarks, stifle competition/innovation and should not exist in a free/capitalist society.
Returning something you intentionally damage is fraud.

[Super Sapper]

Copyrights and trademarks, stifle competition/innovation and should not exist in a free/capitalist society.
Returning something you intentionally damage is fraud.

I disagree with this statement. Copyrights and pattens keep companies from profiting from others time and expense of creating a product. A lot of times there is considerable expense in creating something. It also encourages people to create their own better product instead of just trying to make someone else's product cheaper.

[ADK_XJ]

Copyrights and trademarks, stifle competition/innovation and should not exist in a free/capitalist society.
Returning something you intentionally damage is fraud. That is an absurd statement but points to the misplaced criticisms of SmokyLake.

[ADK_XJ]

I disagree with this statement. Copyrights and pattens keep companies from profiting from others time and expense of creating a product. A lot of times there is considerable expense in creating something. It also encourages people to create their own better product instead of just trying to make someone else's product cheaper. Look at this guy’s past posts, he’s sort of a troll…probably not worth engaging.

[Scm]

I disagree with this statement. Copyrights and pattens keep companies from profiting from others time and expense of creating a product. A lot of times there is considerable expense in creating something. It also encourages people to create their own better product instead of just trying to make someone else's product cheaper.

So, as a human being you would rather not progress? If someone can make something better, everyone benefits, if someone can make something cheaper and people want that, it betters them. Restricting others from making something better PROTECTS the company that is making profits. That doesn't help the rest of us.

https://c4sif.org/aip/
https://stephankinsella.com/own-ideas/

[Scm]

Look at this guy’s past posts, he’s sort of a troll…probably not worth engaging.

Typical to just call someone names rather than engage them because they see things differently. Exactly why I left that part of the country and hate posting to this forum.

[Brian]

That is business and I think Smoky Lake handled this poorly, because of this I lost respect for Smoky Lake!! I also think he stole Daryl Sheets ss filter press idea. So what is good for the goose is good for the gander!!

[johnallin]

That is business and I think Smoky Lake handled this poorly, because of this I lost respect for Smoky Lake!! I also think he stole Daryl Sheets ss filter press idea. So what is good for the goose is good for the gander!!

Brian,
I agree wholeheartedly.
Smoky Lake has bashed just about every other manufacturer in the maple world for no reason other than to call attention to himself.
They have unwittingly just directed a whole new audience to Basset Maple...the young man in the video is just trying to make a living no differently than anyone else.

Jim S. looks foolish and unprofessional in the you tube video, and makes some comments that may be difficult to back up. Just no need for it at all...
Sure hope sap starts running soon!

[buckeye gold]

I understand where Jim is coming from, but your right it's not a flattering response. I wouldn't have made the video, but I would take any legal action I could against the guy. In the end Smokey Lake makes a good product. I have a pan from them and I'd buy another. Just let your product speak for itself and move on.

[Andy VT]

What a spicy little thread, haha! I appreciate all the perspectives. I too was wondering if the video was actually wise on Smoky Lake's end, but for sure as a consumer I appreciate knowing the story. I came slightly close to sending money to Bassett this past December for an evaporator. Now I know not to let that happen. I might make an exception at some point if the right Bassett evaporator is physically in front of me so I don't have to wonder if it will materialize. I think, most likely, when I'm ready for wood-fired evaporation, I'll jury rig my own contraption for a while. 2026 season I hope. Not by any spite, its just that they cost a lot, no matter who makes it.

[BAP]

That is business and I think Smoky Lake handled this poorly, because of this I lost respect for Smoky Lake!! I also think he stole Daryl Sheets ss filter press idea. So what is good for the goose is good for the gander!!
There is almost no products SL sells that they truly invented. The same can be said for most manufacturers. Actual new inventions are so few and far between. Most manufacturers take products already being produced and add their own modifications and hopefully improvements to them and sell them as their own.

[DrTimPerkins]

Restricting others from making something better PROTECTS the company that is making profits. That doesn't help the rest of us.

You are correct in some respects, however innovation typically comes at a cost. The people who developed the new thing-a-ma-jig or widget or idea probably spent a good bit of time, energy, and money on it. Patents, trade-marks, and such provide SOME (but not complete) protection to those individuals and companies to allow them some time to produce and market their invention and recoup their investment. But that protection has a time-limit so as not to provide a monopoly and to encourage further development and innovation. Without that, there would be little incentive for individuals or companies to spend money to innovate. Rather, they's just spend money spying on other companies. So like with many things, there is a balance between protection and a totally free-market.

[Scm]

You are correct in some respects, however innovation typically comes at a cost. The people who developed the new thing-a-ma-jig or widget or idea probably spent a good bit of time, energy, and money on it. Patents, trade-marks, and such provide SOME (but not complete) protection to those individuals and companies to allow them some time to produce and market their invention and recoup their investment. But that protection has a time-limit so as not to provide a monopoly and to encourage further development and innovation. Without that, there would be little incentive for individuals or companies to spend money to innovate. Rather, they's just spend money spying on other companies. So like with many things, there is a balance between protection and a totally free-market.

I would be right in ALL respects if we were the free market capitalist society we are supposed to be.

"Luigi Zingales, an economics professor and host of the podcast “Capitalisn’t,” said he sees the rise of the superbillionaire class as a symptom of the failure of capitalism in the U.S.

“A good capitalist system is a system that doesn’t reward exactly anybody too much, because it remains very competitive, and every new innovation is quickly copied,” he said.

Zingales blamed the U.S. legal system for allowing tech companies to protect their trade secrets and innovations to the point where competition is impossible. “I’m the first one to say we need incentives for people to innovate. However, that somebody is reaping such large rewards suggests that the incentives are too much that we could have gotten the same outcome with much less,” he said."

https://www.wsj.com/real-estate/meet-superbillionaires-worlds-ultra-rich-cb7a797c

[Vtmbz]

Let’s keep this about backyard sugar production. Much more fun to discuss.

[Scm]

All within the topic of the title (scam) which is not about "backyard sugar production"
This may be a better section of the forum if your looking for "fun".:
http://mapletrader.com/community/forumdisplay.php?66-It-s-All-About-Family
Most of the rest are about "work", avoid those ;)

[BAP]

All within the topic of the title (scam) which is not about "backyard sugar production"
This may be a better section of the forum if your looking for "fun".:
http://mapletrader.com/community/forumdisplay.php?66-It-s-All-About-Family
Most of the rest are about "work", avoid those ;)
All from a person who hides behind anonymity. Could be you are a troll or robot.

[bigschuss]

Let’s keep this about backyard sugar production. Much more fun to discuss.

Just don't open any threads you're not interested in. Pretty simple.

I find this conversation interesting.

[berkshires]

Just don't open any threads you're not interested in. Pretty simple.

I find this conversation interesting.

I agree. The only problem is that this thread may not be in the correct site area. If an admin could move it, great. If not, whatever, it is a worthwhile conversation, just leave it alone.

GO

[Scm]

All from a person who hides behind anonymity. Could be you are a troll or robot.
My name is Scott Miller from Ava Missouri.
Unfortunately originally from mASSacussetts.
Care to add value to the conversation or are you just wanting to be a d***head?

[bigschuss]

I agree. The only problem is that this thread may not be in the correct site area. If an admin could move it, great. If not, whatever, it is a worthwhile conversation, just leave it alone.

GO

Ah, I see. Yeah, makes sense. Do we have an Off Topic or General Discussion sub-forum? Maybe in the Headlines - Latest Maple News sub-forum?

[Scm]

Ah, I see. Yeah, makes sense. Do we have an Off Topic or General Discussion sub-forum? Maybe in the Headlines - Latest Maple News sub-forum?

The Sugar Inn (http://mapletrader.com/community/forumdisplay.php?26-The-Sugar-Inn)
A place for community members to gather, introduce themselves, welcome new members and for "off-topic conversations." Please no discussions about politics or religion ! Any Maple related info please use the appropriate forum area....

But this thread may be more fitting for this subforum since it deals with maple AND business:

The Business Side of Things
(http://mapletrader.com/community/forumdisplay.php?75-The-Business-Side-of-Things)Taxes, depreciation, insurance, payroll, accounting basics, all the fun parts of business

I'm guessing that the word "fun" is being used in a sarcastic way since NONE of those things are actually FUN
You don't want that subforum either Vtmbz no fun there;)

(http://mapletrader.com/community/forumdisplay.php?75-The-Business-Side-of-Things)

[DrTimPerkins]

Putting on a "moderator" hat for a moment, let's keep it civil without resorting to name-calling or profanity. Discussion is fine without it, even if it wandered off-topic a bit.

[Andy VT]

As the OP sorry if I put it in the wrong spot. My reasoning is that Bassett Maple Co provides products that are exclusively backyard oriented, so backyarders seemed to be the ones most in need of the information. But maybe it should have been under equipment or something like that.

[johnallin]

Putting on a "moderator" hat for a moment, let's keep it civil without resorting to name-calling or profanity. Discussion is fine without it, even if it wandered off-topic a bit.

Good to see you Dr Tim!
Not many old timers left on here.
In some respects; this is a calm thread…where is Frank Ivy these days?

[DrTimPerkins]

In some respects; this is a calm thread…where is Frank Ivy these days?

Don't know, but don't say his name three times in a row! :o

[johnallin]

Don't know, but don't say his name three times in a row! :o

“Those were the days….”
Not sure where some of the past contributors went, but it doesn’t seem like Trader gets the same traffic she had 10 years back. Not a Facebook guy so might be missing something there.
This is one of only two boards I’m on. The other is all about boats.

[DrTimPerkins]

This is one of only two boards I’m on. The other is all about boats.

Same, but dropped the boat forum after we sold the boat and the lakehouse and moved to Michigan in the summer of 2023. Definitely miss those, but being only 0.8 miles from the grandkids is far better than being 996 miles from them.

Also don't do Facebook. Don't need that much anger and idiocy in my life. The algorithms are designed specifically to drive people to the extremes of any viewpoint. The reality of most things is almost always somewhere in the middle.

[Scm]

Way off topic now. Here are a few I built:

https://i.ibb.co/BVPMVwN5/web-intro8.png (https://ibb.co/4ZfrZJdn)
https://i.ibb.co/rR1Q6hcp/IMG-1820.jpg (https://ibb.co/gLBrT8PW)

[bigschuss]

Also don't do Facebook. Don't need that much anger and idiocy in my life. The algorithms are designed specifically to drive people to the extremes of any viewpoint. The reality of most things is almost always somewhere in the middle.

So true Dr. Perkins. I am on Facebook...though just to keep in touch with my former military buddies and to participate in a few groups I enjoy. There is a great Chevy K5 Blazer page I enjoy. And more relatable, there is a pretty active Back Yard Maple Syrup Producers group that I like. It's mostly new sugar makers showing up asking the same old questions over and over...when should I tap?...do I pitch or boil the ice?...why is my syrup cloudy?...how deep do I tap?...is this a maple?

But I like helping the new people. But beyond that, Facebook has become an absolutely wretched place to spend any amount of time.

[DrTimPerkins]

Way off topic now. Here are a few I built:

Nice job. Do they track well?

[Scm]

Nice job. Do they track well?
2 out of three do. One just sinks

[voluntucky tapper]

hi Dr tim ,I had to bud in to ask a question ,i'm in s e CT , Voluntown , and i'm at a loss for reason. i'm running drop line to bucket, and am getting minimal flow . the ground is wet but not marshy .it abutts the Patchaug forest on the route 138 side going into R.I . I have approx 150/160 taps which usually provide about 400/500 gallon of sap or 4 or 5 gallons of syrup , this is my 6th or 7th year sugaring .

[DrTimPerkins]

One just sinks

Not ideal for a boat :lol: unless you wanted it to be a submarine.

We had an aluminum canoe for a while that was incredibly tippy. You'd better sit up straight and not lean much and make sure the other person with you did the same. Took a while to get used to, but was fine once you did.

My daughter's best friend had a boyfriend that was huge...about 6'6" tall and pure muscle. When they got in the canoe (him in back, her in front), the front 1/3 of the canoe lifted out of the water as if it were a motorboat before it got up on plane. She couldn't reach down far enough to get her paddle in the water. So funny to watch them out on the lake.