Arc Barb-Spout on Gravity

[ebliese]

Is there any advantage to moving to the new arc barb-spouts if you are on a gravity system? I do believe this spout was designed with vacuum in mind but we are on 5/16 drops into buckets. My initial thought would be maybe more sap since the spout barrel is shorter upon looking at some information (see the link below and click on "more information' under the 5/16" arc barb-spout).

https://middlevalleymaple.com/services/

[buckeye gold]

I just installed 100 on 3/16" tubing and I will tell you in March if they were better. I liek the idea of more exposed sap wood and less flow restriction, but real world trials will soon tell us if it's better. They were a fair price and I think they are well made, so I am giving them a go. I wouldn't hesitate to try them on the 5/16 gravity. I still have 50 taps on two laterals with the old 5/16 x3/16 DG spiles for comparison

[ebliese]

Buckeye gold, how did you like tapping with the new arc-barb spouts? For me it seemed that the traditional "thunk" when the tap is seated wasn't as evident. We had a couple spouts also break off the back end where the hammer lands. Maybe we just hit it at an odd angle. Overall, we found it easier to tap with the other spouts we have-the regular ol' 90* black 5/16 spouts. It could just be user error on our part and not being familiar with new (to us) product.

[buckeye gold]

I had the same thing happen to me and some of the tees collapsed when installing with my two handed tool. They seemed soft and I noticed a couple bent when I tightened lines. I had maybe 10% break when tapping. I had two laterals with all arch barbed taps and tees and I do believe they produced more sap then my other laterals. I think they'll get the kinks worked out and they will have a good product, but I agree I saw a couple flaws.

[johnallin]

I had the same thing happen to me and some of the tees collapsed when installing with my two handed tool. They seemed soft and I noticed a couple bent when I tightened lines. I had maybe 10% break when tapping. I had two laterals with all arch barbed taps and tees and I do believe they produced more sap then my other laterals. I think they'll get the kinks worked out and they will have a good product, but I agree I saw a couple flaws.

I'm replacing about 325 with the new arch spouts. So far, they are a bit finicky when pressing on drops - I used a one handed tool.
If the angle is off; they tend to collapse or snap, but once I got the hang of it they went on great.
They will almost push on, and I found that worked really well and finished seating with the tool.

Tapped about 55 last Sat and only snapped 2...I did carry spares in my apron anticipating some issues.
They're a different animal, but I like them, just takes a different technique.

[DrTimPerkins]

They're a different animal, but I like them, just takes a different technique.

This....

If they were the same animal...you'd get the same results as a regular spout.

As for putting them on tubing...takes a bit of practice. After a dozen or so you'll get the knack of it.

As for tapping...it takes a bit more "precision" to tap them than a regular spout. You want to hit them squarely with a TAPPING hammer. Once you get that change in tone that tells you they are seated...hit them 1-2 more times with a TAPPING hammer to make sure they seat correctly.

When used with thick-barked trees, scrape a little of the loose bark away in the area you are tapping in to ensure proper tapping depth. There is a fluted drill bit that is being tested for use with these spouts that helps to set the proper depth.

They were designed and tested (multiple field seasons) for vacuum, but there is no reason they won't respond similarly on gravity.

There are also now antimicrobial versions available. These are different from the previous antimicrobials due to the fact that they can be certified for organic maple operations.

[johnallin]

Agree wholeheartedly with the tapping hammer.
They do want be hit squarely… the 2 that snapped were operator error :o
Overall, I think they’re better than the zap backs I’m replacing.
Nice design and congrats to Dr Tim

[ebliese]

Ok, so I'm ready to get an earful. For my tapping hammer I use a 12oz Vaughan soft face hammer. I flattened the face of each side of the hammer to provide a flat surface to contact the tap. At the time, I knew I needed a light hammer for tapping and this was readily available (as in I could go to my local Lowe's instead of ordering it). I have found the hard plastic side is better than the soft rubber side. I do hold the hammer lightly and swing gently. With all that said, would it be a better practice for me to invest in an actual tapping hammer from a maple dealer?

It seemed to me the tap (arc-barb) would be seated and the last barb would be outside the taphole. Any others have the same observation?

[buckeye gold]

It seemed to me the tap (arc-barb) would be seated and the last barb would be outside the taphole. Any others have the same observation?

Yes, when the sound turned dead like a normal tap a barb was still just at bark level. I soon learned just another light tap or two and it would seat in. I have not seen any tap holes leaking so I guess it worked.

As for tapping hammers, I think you can get by just fine with a light hammer from Lowes. Just know what you have in your hand. I have a small tack hammer that has a metal head that I have used for years and I have no problems with split tap holes. Tapping hammers may be the best and simplest tool, but if you use a little common sense others will work. Of course if I'm selling tapping hammers I would disagree. Now they can yell at me too, but the same old hammer is staying in my work bucket.

[Pdiamond]

i have been using a small tack hammer for 10 years or more.

[DrTimPerkins]

It seemed to me the tap (arc-barb) would be seated and the last barb would be outside the taphole. Any others have the same observation?

When you say "last barb", do you mean the barb closest to the tip of the spout INSIDE the tree or the closest to the hammer end.

If you mean the large "last barb" on the hammer end of the spout, that is purposefully made oversized to prevent producers from overdriving them. If you can manage to drive that barb into the tree, put down your sledgehammer. :lol:

The new chamfered bit that is being made by MVM is designed to help producers seat the spouts to the proper depth.

[ebliese]

Oh, that's a good point-which "last barb." It would be the barb closest to the hammer end of the spout. Glad to know I was not overdriving. But if John Henry were to tap maples....

[johnallin]

When you say "last barb", do you mean the barb closest to the tip of the spout INSIDE the tree or the closest to the hammer end.

If you mean the large "last barb" on the hammer end of the spout, that is purposefully made oversized to prevent producers from overdriving them. If you can manage to drive that barb into the tree, put down your sledgehammer. :lol:

The new chamfered bit that is being made by MVM is designed to help producers seat the spouts to the proper depth.

I picked up a CDL tapping hammer this year - 9” aluminum handle, 1 3/4” dia black resin head with a blade at the back for clearing bark. It’s perfectly sized and weighted.

Handle length and balance is a plus as you can only hit so hard.
Took 18 years to finally buy one - the new arch spouts where the driving factor - but what a difference.
Would post a picture, but we can’t do that anymore.

[mainebackswoodssyrup]

I also bought one of those last year John. Great for those big maples and chipping bark away. Nice tool

[SeanD]

I'm also trying out the arc/barb spouts this year in a section with about 150ish out there. I'm buying into the concept and the science, but I too struggled with the tapping. They just never felt or sounded right going in. It had a dead thunk with every hit from first to last. I would look at it and try to give it a twist to see how well it was in. Definitely took longer that way and I never felt confident I was getting it right.

The hardest part for me was the first few hits. I found myself really gripping the hammer and putting way more force than usual on the first hits with my aluminum/plastic hammer (https://bascommaple.com/products/sphamal?srsltid=AfmBOooXtBCWhhQzhIpCYesXbvxMS6l_sP MpJI_No2JJwvX8pNDApqiS). I didn't like the way that felt, so I went back to my old fiberglass/nailing hammer. Very light hits with that felt better than the tapping hammer - still not great, though. The spouts did have an easier time going in when the wood was a bit thawed. Most of my taps were frozen, though.

Now that they are seated, they seem to be a good fit and I haven't found leaks at the taps. I have to admit that when I went back to my CVs and the plastic hammer, it felt easy and effortless. Those were fast and enjoyable to put in.

Production is TBD, so I'll reassess at the end of the season.