Galvanized coated tanks/etc

[ProBoot]

I know what you're thinking, NO Way to galvanized.

I agree
BUT!!!

I have 2 tanks that are free to me already sitting around, clean, clear and ready to use.

My question is this:
1. If I used a product like an epoxy coating on the inside can these then be considered to be used for Sap collection?
2. If I use a polypropylene or similar product liner(like a pond liner) can I use these tanks?

Its 2 tanks, each with about a 100 Gallons capacity and would be used for either collection at an end line or in the trailer for transport from collection point to sugar shack.

Thoughts?
I already have a 300 gallon stainless bulk tank to hold the sap while awaiting boiling so these would be for limited time use.

I can pick up local food grad 55gallon drums for about $40ec and that's my back up but I already have these tanks available to me for zero cost.

[Brian]

This crap is why all the states and fda are having a field day with us sugarmaker. This is why they are coming up with all the rules and regulation. follow the rules and you will be fine. No galvanized anything, buckets, tanks or spouts, pipe fittings ect.

[johnallin]

I know what you're thinking, NO Way to galvanized.

I agree
BUT!!!

I have 2 tanks that are free to me already sitting around, clean, clear and ready to use.

My question is this:
1. If I used a product like an epoxy coating on the inside can these then be considered to be used for Sap collection?
2. If I use a polypropylene or similar product liner(like a pond liner) can I use these tanks?

Its 2 tanks, each with about a 100 Gallons capacity and would be used for either collection at an end line or in the trailer for transport from collection point to sugar shack.

Thoughts?
I already have a 300 gallon stainless bulk tank to hold the sap while awaiting boiling so these would be for limited time use.

I can pick up local food grad 55gallon drums for about $40ec and that's my back up but I already have these tanks available to me for zero cost.


This crap is why all the states and fda are having a field day with us sugarmaker. This is why they are coming up with all the rules and regulation. follow the rules and you will be fine. No galvanized anything, buckets, tanks or spouts, pipe fittings ect.

Couldn't agree more...No Galvanized means just that..."No galvanized".
Forget about coating and the fact that they're "free" and stop trying to cut corners.

[TapTapTap]

I believe that a properly lined container should be acceptable so long as the sap is completely separated from the galvanization and you can convincingly argue that the isolation is robust and failsafe. Additionally, the liner should be food grade.

That said, I think it's a bad idea that will cost you more than other types of acceptable containers. And since you think it would be reasonable to line these tanks then I assume they are open top which raises another concern.

I also agree with Brian that having any galvanized equipment raises issues that aren't good for our industry, even if you can show you've taken hidden measures to stay aligned with best practices.

[BAP]

This crap is why all the states and fda are having a field day with us sugarmaker. This is why they are coming up with all the rules and regulation. follow the rules and you will be fine. No galvanized anything, buckets, tanks or spouts, pipe fittings ect.
Why give someone Crap for asking an honest question. That’s just being Snobby. They asked a question to be better informed, not to promote the use of it. The fact of the matter is, everyone has become so scared and and afraid that some minuscule thing is going to kill them, that by living in bubbles and not exposing themselves to various things they are going to kill themselves by having poorly developed immune systems. We are living in a world where regulations are driving people out of business and gearing everything towards large producers with millions of dollars to invest or write off.

[Brian]

I was not being rude!! stating the facts!! All of this stuff has cost me alot of money to play too. But I don't want this to ruin it for the sugar makers that are doing it right. By the first post, this person already knows it is wrong.

[amasonry]

I don't know the laws in Canada, but they still sell bucket barriers in the US. It's not that different. plus did anyone ask if the op is selling syrup. if he is not doesn't matter. I say line them.

way to be Bap, no need for maple shamming

[Andy VT]

This is a tangential question, but what is the concern with an open top tank?

[ProBoot]

What about Plastic? The micro plastics are a real concern too.

I don't beleive tha hype around it at all.

I have live stock. You know what they drink out of? Galvanized containers, easily bought at any farm store around me for about $100.
If it were SO BAD why let our food consume the nasty lead leached galvanized in their drinking water?

I have 2 large open top tanks, both are galvanized.
The question was a simple one and the negativity received is mind boggling to say the least.

Has anyone a link to a study completed in the last 5-10 years regarding "Lead based galvanized tanks" and any negative effects in SAP at all, like literally anything.

I'm not talking about galvanized form 50-60 years ago that had high concentrations of Lead included but more recent products that used lead free solder etc.


Anyway where I am a similar sized tank for these will be about $1500ec, IF you can find one. If I spent $200 on epoxy coatings and lined the tanks it would serve the purpose. I mean they do it to Water Tanks every single day of the year here but for some reason Maple Syrup producers go crazy when they see it.

[Andy VT]

I am not the one to actually answer your question. I consider myself a newbie and I expect to continue considering myself a newbie for at least 20 more years. :lol:
But I have a couple theories based on things I've heard over my 4 seasons so far:
One) Probably no one here thinks there is actually going to be lead poisoning as a result of galvanized tanks.
Two) That said, I think I've heard that sap (maybe due to acidity) is more likely to absorb lead than just water?
Three) I'm not totally sure of any of the above
Four) I suspect we're all not sure of the above, so to make sure, we just don't use galvanized. Except when we do (I still see galvanized sap buckets hanging on trees all over the place, and maybe most of those don't sell it, but I'd put money that some do)

[Brian]

Proboot, if that is what you want to do and the lead quality you are willing to make, and the reputation you want. Then go for it!! I don't want that reputation of using equipment that is not legal under Vt law.
Happy sugaring!!

[ProBoot]

Proboot, if that is what you want to do and the lead quality you are willing to make, and the reputation you want. Then go for it!! I don't want that reputation of using equipment that is not legal under Vt law.
Happy sugaring!!
Do you use Aluminum? What about going to a restaurant and seeing them cooking your food using aluminum? Did you know that aluminum is a leading cause of Altizmers in adults?
Did you know that re-using plastic items can lead to ingestion of micro plastics? They can lead to all kinds of GI problems in children and adults...
Also don't forget about smoke and how damaging it is on the lungs.

I'm just not sure why there was all of a sudden hard on against galvanized in production of milk and maple.

Ans as for the laws, I think you are mistaken, Laws? like the police are gonna get ya if you get caught using galvanized products in production of maple products? Seems like a good waste of time.

I 100% know that the maples syrup associations will likely pull your membership from their organizations but still not sure how much leverage they would really have over your operation honestly if you just continued production.

Maybe the FDA would come knocking on your door?

I'm in Canada and have no business running, no license to operate, no sales to general public, no plans to be a "player" in the local market(100% saturated with about 20 producers within an hours drive of me with a combined 100,000,000 taps total likely.

Guess to make everyone happy I'll just line the tanks with stainless steel inside and enjoy seeing the smerk on the inspectors face when he thinks he got me but not really. hahaha

[johnallin]

I know what you're thinking, NO Way to galvanized.

I agree
BUT!!!

I have 2 tanks that are free to me already sitting around, clean, clear and ready to use.

My question is this:
1. If I used a product like an epoxy coating on the inside can these then be considered to be used for Sap collection?
2. If I use a polypropylene or similar product liner(like a pond liner) can I use these tanks?

Its 2 tanks, each with about a 100 Gallons capacity and would be used for either collection at an end line or in the trailer for transport from collection point to sugar shack.

Thoughts?
I already have a 300 gallon stainless bulk tank to hold the sap while awaiting boiling so these would be for limited time use.

I can pick up local food grad 55gallon drums for about $40ec and that's my back up but I already have these tanks available to me for zero cost.


Do you use Aluminum? What about going to a restaurant and seeing them cooking your food using aluminum? Did you know that aluminum is a leading cause of Altizmers in adults?
Did you know that re-using plastic items can lead to ingestion of micro plastics? They can lead to all kinds of GI problems in children and adults...
Also don't forget about smoke and how damaging it is on the lungs.

I'm just not sure why there was all of a sudden hard on against galvanized in production of milk and maple.

Ans as for the laws, I think you are mistaken, Laws? like the police are gonna get ya if you get caught using galvanized products in production of maple products? Seems like a good waste of time.

I 100% know that the maples syrup associations will likely pull your membership from their organizations but still not sure how much leverage they would really have over your operation honestly if you just continued production.

Maybe the FDA would come knocking on your door?

I'm in Canada and have no business running, no license to operate, no sales to general public, no plans to be a "player" in the local market(100% saturated with about 20 producers within an hours drive of me with a combined 100,000,000 taps total likely.

Guess to make everyone happy I'll just line the tanks with stainless steel inside and enjoy seeing the smerk on the inspectors face when he thinks he got me but not really. hahaha

I think you're a nut job...no one is going to inspect your operation-so don't worry about the inspector smirking, and no Maple Syrup operation is going to pull your membership - if you even had one.
You'd learn a lot more by asking questions and not arguing with the answers.
Some of these guys have spilled more syrup than you've made.

[BAP]

I think you're a nut job...no one is going to inspect your operation-so don't worry about the inspector smirking, and no Maple Syrup operation is going to pull your membership - if you even had one.
You'd learn a lot more by asking questions and not arguing with the answers.
Some of these guys have spilled more syrup than you've made.
But one can argue that you are a NUT Job too for calling others NUT Jobs and bowing to the pressure and demands put on maple industry by the Manufacturers of equipment. The main reason there is so much push for using stainless in everything is the mighty dollar and the amount of money being made by manufacturers. Wait until someone declares plastic illegal to use and someone comes out with some obscure study that says stainless steel leaches something into the syrup. Then what is everyone going to do? Oh, I have probably spilled and made more syrup in my lifetime than you will ever make.

[Brian]

Bap, This person asked, and these are the basic standards of how syrup is made today. I am sorry you spilled your syrup. What happens in the future is still in the future. We are talking about the standards of today. Tomorrow things may be different. I have stainless pins in my ankle.The farming Industry uses these same standards in the milking industry and they have inspectors, I grew up farming about a mile from here. I tap the maples on part of the old farm. If people don't want to know the rules don't ask. I have been on this site along time and this is getting out of hand and needs to stop. this site is for sugaring, and sugaring only. I have seen people get kicked off this site and it caused alot of lost information that will never be heard. Good Luck To All, God Bless and Happy Turkey Day!!

[ProBoot]

Bap, This person asked, and these are the basic standards of how syrup is made today. I am sorry you spilled your syrup. What happens in the future is still in the future. We are talking about the standards of today. Tomorrow things may be different. I have stainless pins in my ankle.The farming Industry uses these same standards in the milking industry and they have inspectors, I grew up farming about a mile from here. I tap the maples on part of the old farm. If people don't want to know the rules don't ask. I have been on this site along time and this is getting out of hand and needs to stop. this site is for sugaring, and sugaring only. I have seen people get kicked off this site and it caused alot of lost information that will never be heard. Good Luck To All, God Bless and Happy Turkey Day!!

It was a simple question, I know the answer, as I stated. I simply wanted to know "what if"
And 100% yes the local association has inspectors, if you join you sing a waiver that they are allowed to enter your property and inspect your equipment when ever they want period. It's part of joining th association.

I haven't made much Syrup in my life, but I've probably drank more straight shots of it then the average person goes through in a year, not that it matters.

This whole ordeal around everything being not good enough for syrup equipment is just making a few people RICHER overall, it reminds me of how Quebec protects their industry and operates almost like a mafia.

Can anyone, really ANYONE link me to a research article that connects Lead content in finished maple products to galvanized pots/pans/storage? I'll really take anything that's been done in the last 30 years.

So basically Plastic totes are ok, deemed 1 use only by manufacturers and leaching micro plastic into the sap are ok
Pex tubing ok
Plastic water line ok
Aluminum buckets are ok
stainless steel ok

But steel not ok with any coating.

perfect, no wonder this "hobby" is so expensive to get into.




As for this post, who cares. It was a simple question that for some reason got a few members all fired up and negative about me. I have 2 large tanks, most probable solution for them will be to use them to collect rain water for the livestock. No need to worry there aren't any livestock police running around saying galvanized is bad for watering animals, you can still buy brand new galvanized tanks for animals.
I'll just go buy some plastic barrels to hold what I need and hope that there weren't any chemicals or other things in them breaking down the plastics to add something special to my sap collection.

[Brian]

There were tests done in the late 80's early 90's and the results were all over the news and one producers name was ran thruogh the mud on wcax3. for lead in his syrup. If you sell syrup to the public and it is on a shelf at a store an inspector can open it and take a sample at any time. Grade, test and check density then the store gives the jug back to the person or co. that brought it in. I have had this happen to me, you have to give the store credit for what ever they open and test. The store sets it behind the counter until you return and they give it back to you. I believe the fda can also take a sample and test it because it is in the public for sale to buy. The thing that bothered me was they like to open the gallons not the small jugs. I took it out back and dumped it. The bulk buyers check for lead and most packers now make you sign a paper saying everything is lead free and it could come back on you if they find lead in your syrup. One bulk packer is coming this fall/winter to inspect the sugar house and all the tanks ect. On a syrup purchase of 5 gallon container or more it is considered a bulk purchase, once the packer or buyer accepts it, the syrup is his/hers and the producer is no longer responsible for it unless it was sold under false pretenses.

[johnallin]

But one can argue that you are a NUT Job too for calling others NUT Jobs and bowing to the pressure and demands put on maple industry by the Manufacturers of equipment. The main reason there is so much push for using stainless in everything is the mighty dollar and the amount of money being made by manufacturers. Wait until someone declares plastic illegal to use and someone comes out with some obscure study that says stainless steel leaches something into the syrup. Then what is everyone going to do? Oh, I have probably spilled and made more syrup in my lifetime than you will ever make.

BAP, Manufacturers don't dictate safety standards - they abide by them - or go out of business. A maple producer is held to the same principles. It's as simple as that.
I don't ask questions and then argue with the answers, and have a dislike for those who do. You can argue that I'm also a nutjob if it makes you feel good.
That's one of the freedoms we have in this Country, have at it and enjoy the argument...oh and I'm also sorry about all that syrup you've spilled..that's a lot!
Like Brian said - Good Luck to All and God Bless America...happy Thanksgiving too.

[ProBoot]

BAP, Manufacturers don't dictate safety standards - they abide by them - or go out of business. A maple producer is held to the same principles. It's as simple as that.
I don't ask questions and then argue with the answers, and have a dislike for those who do. You can argue that I'm also a nutjob if it makes you feel good.
That's one of the freedoms we have in this Country, have at it and enjoy the argument...oh and I'm also sorry about all that syrup you've spilled..that's a lot!
Like Brian said - Good Luck to All and God Bless America...happy Thanksgiving too.


I ask questions of answers to find out the truth behind an answer. This is part of human nature, unless you don't have kids then you wouldn't understand the "But why" question after you answer their question.

Anyways lock this up.

I've decided to just buy some old plastic barrels and maybe an IBC Tote for storage of raw sap and concentrated sap once it's though the RO(if I get one)

[Brian]

Proboot, I found this https://www.themaplenews.com/story/lead-equipment-ban-for-small-producers-nears/282/ I don't know if this is what you are looking for or not but found it interesting.

[Brian]

This is interesting https://www.ontario.ca/page/preventing-lead-contamination-maple-products

[ennismaple]

This is interesting https://www.ontario.ca/page/preventing-lead-contamination-maple-products Thanks for sharing Brian. I started to type a response the other night with references to Ontario's laws (O.Reg. 119/11 https://www.ontario.ca/laws/regulation/110119 , which I believe is where the OP is located), but chose not to. The simple matter is: whether you sell 10L or 100,000L of syrup a year the same laws apply to all maple producers. Here in Ontario we are fortunate to NOT have mandatory Food Safety training nor registration of our production activities - but that doesn't mean we shouldn't abide by best practices.

From my own experience - every time I've tried to save a few dollars on equipment I've ended up regretting it and ultimately replaced that piece with what I'd originally thought was "too expensive". Is food safety work? Definitely. But the reason why it's important is looking across the table with wide eyes as Mom or Dad pours fresh, local maple syrup on their pancakes.

[Brian]

I believe this is a good topic on here and I know it was a hard one but nothing stays the same. About 35-40 years ago there was a farmer that used the same pump to pump out the barn when it got flooded from a broken water bowl and it was also his sap pump. This farmer said there is nothing wrong with that, it gets boiled any way. These are the things that made syrup have all that flavor years ago LoL. My father still talks about before they had power and used a gas vacuum pump to milk the cows. They used the battery from the old truck to run the fencer. He said when power came thuough alot of farmers hooked 110 ac power to the fence with out a fencer and there would be dead animal on the edges of the pastures that got zapped. He said no cows died that he heard of. He said the guys came through and dug the holes for the power poles about a month or so before the poles were put in. The families had to watch the little kids that they didn't fall in the holes and drown after a hard rain. A lot has happend in his life time. He said alot of gas engines broke or split before there was antifreeze.

[DrTimPerkins]

Sorry...late to this conversation. Galvanizing pre-1994 contains lead. Sap is acidic and leaches lead into the sap. Boiling concentrates the lead in the syrup.

In answer to your specific questions:

1. There are no epoxy coatings I know of that can be applied by the end-user that are entirely food-grade (you have to read the info quite carefully as they can be very "unclear" as to this fact). Last time I looked was maybe 10 yrs ago.
2. Lining would be fine if you can find something suitable. When the lead issue first started there were companies making liners, but that went away pretty quickly. I can tell you the mice loved the linings, so they tended not to last real long.

[DrTimPerkins]

Can anyone, really ANYONE link me to a research article that connects Lead content in finished maple products to galvanized pots/pans/storage? I'll really take anything that's been done in the last 30 years.

Having done much of that research in the mid-late 1990s, I can tell you that it wasn't something that was made largely available in print for a variety of reasons. The outreach efforts were instead targeted directly towards producers in presentations. I can tell you that older galvanized materials contain lead, and that very often those materials were also soldered with lead-based solder.

https://mapleresearch.org/pub/gmp_for_lead-2/

Interestingly, galvanizing (zinc) has (to my knowledge) never been an approved material itself. Different story altogether, but you don't see a lot of maple equipment being made that uses galvanizing any longer. Some cans of worms are best left unopened.

[johnallin]

Having done much of that research in the mid-late 1990s, I can tell you that it wasn't something that was made largely available in print for a variety of reasons. The outreach efforts were instead targeted directly towards producers in presentations. I can tell you that older galvanized materials contain lead, and that very often those materials were also soldered with lead-based solder.

https://mapleresearch.org/pub/gmp_for_lead-2/

Interestingly, galvanizing (zinc) has (to my knowledge) never been an approved material itself. Different story altogether, but you don't see a lot of maple equipment being made that uses galvanizing any longer. Some cans of worms are best left unopened.

Thank you Dr. Tim - and good to see you back...getting a little crazy around here.