Let's be realistic

[Ultimatetreehugger]

I have sold sap since 2016 and I'm now exploring purchasing my own evaporator and everything that entails.

So my question is this, on an 4x14 evaporator with hoods and no steam away, concentrateing to 18%, how much oil would I use per gallon of syrup/ per hour of boiling?

I'm assuming an evaporation rate of 180 gallons of sap an hour producing approximately 40 gallons of syrup a hour. Is this realistic?

Thanks for your help in advance.

[BAP]

I have sold sap since 2016 and I'm now exploring purchasing my own evaporator and everything that entails.

So my question is this, on an 4x14 evaporator with hoods and no steam away, concentrateing to 18%, how much oil would I use per gallon of syrup/ per hour of boiling?

I'm assuming an evaporation rate of 180 gallons of sap an hour producing approximately 40 gallons of syrup a hour. Is this realistic?

Thanks for your help in advance.
How many oil burners? What size burners? If you are doing the 3750 taps that you list in your profile at the bottom, a 4x14 is awfully big for the number of taps if you are using a decent size RO

[ecp]

A 4-foot rig (in my opinion the most efficient width evaporator) is likely going to have 1 burner and unless it's a CDL master it will probably have a calin 701 or 801 burner. Depends on the nozzle they have installed on the burner but you a are likely looking around the 13 to 15 gallons per hour of oil. Without all the details (burner, nozzles, ect) my numbers are just generalizations. I would echo that a 4x14 is large for 3700 taps at 18%. You will probably have a hard time getting enough sap to RO to 18% and fill the pans every night so things will sit a lot more (in other words you will run darker on the scale of color). To be real you will be around the 3 gallons of syrup for 1 gallon of oil mark on the worse side of that.

[Brian]

Ultimatetreehugger if you are not going to get any bigger than you are. I would go 3x10 or 3x12. That should give you a 3-4 hour boil day every other day. On heavy run days that could be 2-3 hour boil days. I have a friend in St Jay that has 4x14 and sap sits to long in the rig and can't get it through the rig so he makes dark syrup. He has about 3000 taps and makes 1000 gallons a year. He also works a full time job so some leaks don't get fixed til weekend. He may get a smaller rig in a few years and turn up the Ro. I have a 4x12, 4ft front 8ft drop flu carlin 701 5gal low fire nozzle 7gal hi fire =12 gal + 140 psi oil pressure makes it about 15 gph of oil. The first hour cold start up about 40 gallons of syrup per hour. The sec hour, I am up to about 60 gallons an hour. at about 18% -20% consentrate.I use about .34 gal of oil to a gal of maple syrup. The funny thing is a 701 carlin oil burner says 12 per hour max. You are welcome to stop over.

[Brian]

Ecp hit the nail on the head, that is what I was trying to say but got to rambling.

[Ultimatetreehugger]

Thank you guys, if I do get an evaporator I would add 3000 taps at my home woods. Because I'd have to put a pump station down in the woods to get the 3000 extra taps I feel like I am at the point where I need to decide if I go full scale with more taps and boil or stay the same size and continue selling sap. Both have benefits but I think I'd be better off boiling at a larger scale.

I have an 1800 gph ro expandable.

Brian, I'll stop by the next time I'm over that way.

[Brian]

On that note, I would buy a 4x12 or a 4x14 and start boiling. On the other hand it is alot to keep up to by yourself, do you have friends or family that are interested in helping? I know the stupid mistakes start to happen when I get tired. Then I give my self hell and my wife asked me who I am talking to? But you get the best return on your work by boiling it!!

[Ultimatetreehugger]

Brian, I have four generations on the farm and lots of friends who like to help.

[Brian]

You are lucky, My kids think I am crazy and my wife helps out of sympathy. I get alittle help tapping and washing tubing and that is about it.I live on power naps in the sugaring season. After the season I crash and putter around the sugar house cleaning and what not.

[mainebackswoodssyrup]

The 4x15 CDL evaporator we ran was perfect for 5400-6000 taps and could have handled much more. Same RO as you. Boils averaged around 3 hours per sap run and we made 50G syrup per hour at 18% concentrate. No add-ons, just a hood and preheater.

When we lost our lease, the evaporator was too big for 3200 taps. We never had enough concentrate or had to let it sit which is never good and spent the final season chasing floats every boil. It was stressful. 4x14 or 4x15 for sure would be perfect for you with the added taps.

[ennismaple]

I have sold sap since 2016 and I'm now exploring purchasing my own evaporator and everything that entails.

So my question is this, on an 4x14 evaporator with hoods and no steam away, concentrateing to 18%, how much oil would I use per gallon of syrup/ per hour of boiling?

I'm assuming an evaporation rate of 180 gallons of sap an hour producing approximately 40 gallons of syrup a hour. Is this realistic?

Thanks for your help in advance. Not sure on oil consumption but we boil 200 GPH of 18 Brix concentrate on our 3.5x14 wood fired, making a drum per hour of finished syrup. The 4x14 is probably the right size if you're at 6000+ taps but is way too big at 3750. At 6000 taps you're looking at between a 2.5 hour boil (5000 gallons of sap) to a 5 hour boil (10,000 gallons) for a "normal" day, whatever that is!

[ecp]

Thank you guys, if I do get an evaporator I would add 3000 taps at my home woods. Because I'd have to put a pump station down in the woods to get the 3000 extra taps I feel like I am at the point where I need to decide if I go full scale with more taps and boil or stay the same size and continue selling sap. Both have benefits but I think I'd be better off boiling at a larger scale.

I have an 1800 gph ro expandable.

Brian, I'll stop by the next time I'm over that way.

Not that you are asking for my 2 cents - so toss this out the window if you would like. If I were you I would take a step back for 10 minutes and just look at what you want to do in the long term. I get that selling sap on your side of the state isn't as profitable as the western side of Vermont (15% to 20% higher over here from the numbers I've been told). An expansion essentially doubling your operation plus boiling comes with a lot of cost. If it were me I would add the taps and keep selling sap until they pay for themselves (1 or 2 years). With an end goal around 6500 taps I would get a high brix RO and a 3x12 evap because of profit margins and time I would put more money in the woods and the RO than the evaporator. Don't ever be shy of touring sugarhouse to pick up on things you like and things you hate. If you dont mind me asking why do you have an RO if you are selling sap?

[Ultimatetreehugger]

Don't ever be shy of touring sugarhouse to pick up on things you like and things you hate. If you dont mind me asking why do you have an RO if you are selling sap?

I have a weekend hobby of sugar house window peeping lol

So, I got an ro for several reasons,

Primary reason is that my buyer would get over run but there 21000 taps because they were under sized at the Ro and we would be in a constant stressful juggling match and on several occasions one of us would have sap on going on the ground. So after that experience I purchased an ro to i could recirculate until they were ready for me.
Secondly my old 99 ram dump truck was falling apart making 84 trips a year carrying 8250 pounds over steep muddy roads. Plus my trips was cut to 25 trips with no concern over sap loss.
The third was time. Two years ago I was blessed with my daughter and I really wanted to be able to spend time with her, especially dinner.

The fourth was the value of sap is higher this way.

[Brian]

Thats was what I thought. I have though about putting in ro at the pump shacks too. Now that I have the sap truck with the 3200 gallon tank life got alot easyer.










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[ecp]

I have a weekend hobby of sugar house window peeping lol

So, I got an ro for several reasons,

Primary reason is that my buyer would get over run but there 21000 taps because they were under sized at the Ro and we would be in a constant stressful juggling match and on several occasions one of us would have sap on going on the ground. So after that experience I purchased an ro to i could recirculate until they were ready for me.
Secondly my old 99 ram dump truck was falling apart making 84 trips a year carrying 8250 pounds over steep muddy roads. Plus my trips was cut to 25 trips with no concern over sap loss.
The third was time. Two years ago I was blessed with my daughter and I really wanted to be able to spend time with her, especially dinner.

The fourth was the value of sap is higher this way.

First - Congrats on having a daughter. Kids are the only true joy left in this world today so take every second you can get with them.

I totally understand your reasons for an RO and given the same scenario I probably would have done the same thing (maybe). Selling RO'd sap to me leaves to many areas for someone to get screwed. This is not a judgement just an observation, but I see in your signature line is says that off from 3750 taps you made 800 gallons (my guess is that you were the one getting screwed on the RO'd sap). If the 800 gallons is really a true number with no errors, I would recommend you put money and time in the woods not in the sugarhouse (evap, boiling, filtering, RO) because you are missing about half of your production already. To me there is no point in just adding taps when you can double your sap production at your current tap count. All you would be doing is adding tapping time when you could shift that additional time to checking for leaks. A note - if your current sap buying can't handle what they have I'd find a new one because there is no excuse for a buyer to have a seller spilling sap on the ground because of capacity. Again, this is just my 2 cents you can take it or leave it.

P.S. I won't pick on you for driving a dodge. http://mapletrader.com/community/images/icons/icon6.png

[Brian]

The problem is we are lucky to make a 1/3 of a gallon per tap in this area because this area is cold. I plan on a quart per tap and anything after that is a bonus. Some days the sap dont start to run until 2:00 pm and done at 4:00 pm. We get flash freezes that freezes everything up hard in an instant and breaks sensors, lines and valves that most sugar makers never get to see. Some times the mountain sides thaw out and fill all the liquid lines and vacuum lines at the top and the conductors never thaw out that day then hits 0 deg tha night night and that means the next 3 days fixing broken lines and what not. Oh the joy of living in the north.

[Brian]

I usually send 2-3 sensors back to h2o to get fixed do to freezing. I have extras for that reason.

[Ultimatetreehugger]

I just updated my signature.
Ecp, thank you, I love being a dad and she is amazing.

I'm obsessive in my woods and pull 26.5 to 27 inches throughout which isnthe best you can do at my elevation. In 2023 my area had one of the worst seasons on record and i did much better that a lot of my neighbors.

Brian, I fight constantly with my Smartrek system and HATE it! It's never connected on my phone making me call my wife when I want to know how I'm doing in the woods.

Also, I'll have you know that my ramshackle underpowered rust flea ridden pos has never let me down despite being able to feel the cab bounce with every bump. It doesn't owe me a nickle. It's the only work truck that's not a Ford and I don't like walking enough to own a Gm product!

[Brian]

I make that same call to my wife also. One woods that I have has no cell coverage at all since they changed to 4g only.

[ecp]

I'll have to come clean now and say that I drive a GM product. That was a funny come back.

It's good to hear about the H20 monitors as I looked at them before going to CDL (sounds like I made the correct decision).

While I don't live in the kingdom I have a cold sugar place (generally when I pull spouts there is still snow on the ground at the top) and am empathic to cold climate sugar makers certainly more so than most. What I'll say is I hear you and I've said the same things in the past. Now that I have shifted my mentality, and I use the data from monitors (not only for leak checking but also for pipe pitch and sizing) along with research I have doubled production (no I don't make 7 lbs per tap i was at the same spot you are). Location, soil composition, weather, tree stress, tap hole location, vacuum level, product shrinkage factors, density, ect all make a difference when it comes to production numbers.

I'm not crapping on anything or anyone here because every operation is different and that is part of what makes the ag industry great. Hell, I would probably still be sloshing around waist deep in snow all winter long if I was making 1 lbs per tap. I'm just saying when I changed my mentality from just blaming the weather to making decisions to improve things based on the data and research I had, I saw a difference. My decision for improvement is probably different than others and that it totally okay.

[Brian]

Glen Goodrich sized all of my lines (wet-dry) and even did the install with my father and me in 2002 on my fathers woods. It is one of the woods I still tap. Glen bought the sap from my father until 2008. I have been around Glen all my life, he has been my neighbor and still is. He started sugaring with my fathers buckets in the late 70's or early 80's when he lived on Cow hill. My vac is 26-27 inches at the end of every mainline.