Max pressure a float valve can seal?

[BCardella]

Just picked up my new-to-me 2x6 Leader Patriot and this year I’ll be plumbing my Springtech Hero RO directly to the float box (how the RO is designed to run.) My question is, since the Springtech’s manual is so vague, is the float box on the patriot capable to holding back the pressure of the Springtech to force it to recirculate? I talked to Leader (who made the RO) but sounds like no one there is very familiar with this unit RO so I couldn’t get many answers. The manual (and the operating instructions) on the Springtech had several errors as well lol. I’ve had to do a lot of reverse engineering of this thing and figure out how the engineers designed it, because whoever wrote the manual had some disconnect with the unit. The manual only states to plumb the RO directly to the evaporator. No more details. So I’d assume that means directly into the float box and the valve is what either allows lower brix concentrate out from the RO or forces it to recirculate more. I just have a hard time believing the float box is going to apply enough pressure on the valve to hold the RO back. I’m hoping someone here is familiar with this style of direct-plumbed RO.

[BAP]

I don’t know about that particular RO, but plumbing your RO directly to the float box and relying upon that only to feed your evaporator is like playing with fire. One little hiccup in the RO and the evaporator is going to run out of sap and you are going to burn the pans big time. The smarter thing to do is to have some kind of a head tank to feed the evaporator and run the RO into that keeping some reserve in the tank.

[maple flats]

I'm not familiar with any RO that is designed to hook directly to the float box. The RO will at minimum have a pressure of 275 PSI if that RO gets 75% removal in 1 pass and depending on what the top concentrate % is, it could be higher. There is no float valve I'm familiar with that could hold that sort of pressure back, in fact most won't even hold back gravity feed if your head tank is too high above the float box. My guess is that most float valves would hold back 8-10 PSI maybe.

[ecp]

I would not recommend plumbing an RO into a float valve. The experts have already said this, and they are right. It will not hold back the pressure from the RO and does not give any buffer (even with oil fired a small buffer is nice). Albeit the concentrate pressure coming out of the RO is certainly not HI PSI (the high psi is on raw sap not the concentrate). The only way I would even consider this concept is if the float was controlling a 3 way valve which recirculated back into the RO feed. Besides the other arguments having a decent sized head/concentrate tank gives you flexibility where you can start concentrating and walk away (for whatever reason needed) for a while. Every operation is unique but tying someone up for the whole RO run every time is a little much of a commitment for that portion of the process.

[Pdiamond]

you mentioned up to 300 taps on a good run day day taht could be well over 600 gallons of sap you are going to






























You mentioned 300 taps to use as sap collection that could yield 600 gallons of sap per day or more. with that amount you will need to have two to Ro containers for concentrate. Into one being the head tank to feed the evaporator that would be your final concentrate. Into another larger tank you
feed your recirculate sap and then as that reaches your wanted level of contrate feed that into the head tank.


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[amasonry]

If you try to hold concentrate back you will blow hoses.

[maple flats]

As stated above the high pressure is on the infeed to the membrane, that's correct in normal operation. But if the outlet to the concentrate is blocked the pressure doesn't dissappear. Some will pass to the permeate but some will put more pressure on the concentrate. There is no other place for it to go. It has to go to one or the other, no third option. As a result the concentrate may well get far too much pressure for a float valve unless this RO is specifically designed to send any excess pressure to the permeate. Being no one at Leader can or will answer that question my thinking is that they experienced issues and don't dare give you an answer.
As I see it, the only RO that could feed directly to the evaporator would be one Leader made years ago that was gravity feed only. I forget what they called it, but they had no pump and worked on gravity only.
Somehow I'm thinking it might have been called a Hero. On that if memory serves me I believe it was rated for up to 50 GPH flow total. I never talked to anyone who had one to get any idea of performance. You may have one of those, in which case, with no pump it should not be a concern operating against the float valve.

[BCardella]

Everyone who’s commented so far all have valid concerns, and fortunately the engineers addressed all of those in the design of the Hero.

When plumbing, there is a bypass valve between the feed tank and the float box so if something does happen, you can just open the bypass and continue to feed sap to the float box.

The reason you have to run this unit directly to the evaporator is because the heat generated by the pump (100psi submersible well pump) is enough to heat the concentrate and cause it to spoil very vast. And a side benefit of heated concentrate going into the evaporator I think is self explanatory.

I appreciate all the insight but I was really hoping there was anyone out there who is intimately familiar with this particular RO. It’s fairly complex as far as recirculation circuits and valves. The design is extremely different than most would be used to seeing. As a matter of fact, with the manual AND the actual unit right in front of me, it’s taken me almost a year to finally start understanding the engineers thought process with all of it. Even since my original thread post, I realized the manual wasn’t wrong, I just didn’t understand it.

The more I understand it, the more I think it’s going to work very well. But before I understood it, my plan was to completely reengineer it because it seemed like a horrible design that didn’t make sense, so I get where you’re all coming from.

[BAP]

Everyone who’s commented so far all have valid concerns, and fortunately the engineers addressed all of those in the design of the Hero.

When plumbing, there is a bypass valve between the feed tank and the float box so if something does happen, you can just open the bypass and continue to feed sap to the float box.

The reason you have to run this unit directly to the evaporator is because the heat generated by the pump (100psi submersible well pump) is enough to heat the concentrate and cause it to spoil very vast. And a side benefit of heated concentrate going into the evaporator I think is self explanatory.

I appreciate all the insight but I was really hoping there was anyone out there who is intimately familiar with this particular RO. It’s fairly complex as far as recirculation circuits and valves. The design is extremely different than most would be used to seeing. As a matter of fact, with the manual AND the actual unit right in front of me, it’s taken me almost a year to finally start understanding the engineers thought process with all of it. Even since my original thread post, I realized the manual wasn’t wrong, I just didn’t understand it.

The more I understand it, the more I think it’s going to work very well. But before I understood it, my plan was to completely reengineer it because it seemed like a horrible design that didn’t make sense, so I get where you’re all coming from.
To each there own, but that bypass valve is useless if it’s a manual bypass valve for feeding the float box, because by the time you realize that you need more sap in your pan, it is with already starting to burn on or actually on fire. Just because the RO may have been designed to be used that way, doesn’t mean that it’s a good design.

[BCardella]

To each there own, but that bypass valve is useless if it’s a manual bypass valve for feeding the float box, because by the time you realize that you need more sap in your pan, it is with already starting to burn on or actually on fire. Just because the RO may have been designed to be used that way, doesn’t mean that it’s a good design.

Good point, so maybe it’s worth some sort of safety provision, like either a sight glass, or it would be easy enough to make a level sensor that shuts down the oil burner. But really, it’s not any different than accidentally letting your head tank get empty without noticing. I mean, no matter how automated we make this process, there’s still different degrees to which these systems need to be monitored by a human, especially those of us doing this on a hobby level. I’m not scared of needing to keep an eye on things.

My other option that I toyed with last year was to completely redesign the RO and use the components except for the pump and convert it to a standard RO pump setup (Procon and a shallow well pump) so it doesn’t heat the concentrate. I only paid $300 for the entire RO, so it’s still worth it. I can always utilize the submersible well pump in it now in an electric releaser some day if I switch to a true vacuum pump.

[DRoseum]

If you are using oil, I recommend building the auto shut off level sensor. I use natural gas and built one and it works like a charm. Great to have that safety net.

[Pdiamond]

I believe you have been given a lot of information. my personal thoughts are to stick with feeding a head tank, to feed your evaporator. Most have a sight glass on them so that you can see when they are getting low and need to be refilled, or they have a float switch mounted in them to automatically feed in more sap. This way supplies a constant amount of sap to the evaporator.

[BCardella]

Thanks for all the insight fellas. I think I’ve gone back to the plan to convert the RO over to a typical feed and pressure pump setup and just use a head tank. I already have a 100 gallon rectangle poly tank I picked up just for that reason. No sight glass needed. For what I paid for the unit, it’s worth it all day. The thought has crossed my mind even before this thread that there must be a reason this unit is the only one designed like this and they stopped making them.