Lots of taps for a 3x10

[maplecherry]

Looking for producers who boil from 7000+ taps on a 3x10 and curious what their set up involves - tank storage, RO size, concentrate levels, hours spent boiling any information about how you manage sap runs during the season. Thanks in Advance for anyone who shares.

[maple flats]

While I never had a 3x10 nor 7000 taps, I got real busy a few times with a 3x8, 1320 taps of my own, all of which had to be hauled 5-7 miles plus I bought sap from 4 others, on shares. I burned wood and my RO was only a very basic 250. In one pass it took about 75% of the water out, taking 2% sap to 8% concentrate in one pass. I then often ran it thru a second time and got it to about 12%. On the days when I had good flow and all 4 other producers brought sap too I was very busy, but I never had to boil all night. I was luckey at that time, (In my retirement I also drove school bus, when super busy I only had to call in , talk to my boss and most often I was given the rest of the day off. I had loads of time built up and never came close to using it up). For tanks I had a 540, a 415, a 300, a 200 and 3 IBC totes of 275 each, plus a 150 gal head tank. A few times all were full, but most often I had more room, at least 1 clean tank. When emptied each tank got cleaned.
I would think you will be super busy. I highly recommend you get an RO that does more GPH and gets a much higher % concentrate in a single pass. If you can get an RO that will do like 22-25% concentrate or higher and you have the time to handle it, you can do it.

[ennismaple]

We're at 4400 taps on a 3.5x14 (10 ft flue pan, 4 ft front pan) so not exactly what you're looking for but can provide our input. We currently have 3000 gallons of storage in the sugar camp with another 6000+ gallons storage in the woods. Sap from about 3300 taps is pumped to the camp with the remainder gathered using a 525 gallon tank on a wagon behind the tractor. Once we start the RO (3x 8" towers in series, approx 1000 GPH producing about 100 GPH of 18 Brix concentrate) we can keep up with the RO pumping and gathering sap from around the bush. We're currently undersized for our permeate storage at the sugar camp with 1600 gallons storage. Permeate storage is 500 gallons in an open top, uninsulated tank.

An average boil for us is in the order of 4 hours. Ideally we have 5000 gallons of sap to process before we concentrate and boil - all in the same day. We have concentrated up to 9000 gallons of sap in a day. We typically concentrate until there's 400+ gallons in the concentrate tank then fire up - because the evaporator processes sap at 2x the rate vs the RO concentrate. Once the fire is lit we're out of concentrate in less than 5 hours, unless we increase the concentrate flow rate on the RO - meaning lower Brix and more boiling time.

Our plan as we continue to grow to beyond 5000 taps is to get an external raw sap tank (8k-10k gallons, either a tanker or a silo tank), allowing us to use the 3000 gallon tank for daily permeate with the other 1600 gallons of tank storage available if we want more permeate for extra washes or end of season membrane cleaning. Also in the plans is an 800-1000 refrigerated bulk tank so we can store concentrate for longer and process sap as it comes in - and not wait until there's enough to fire up the evaporator. The refrigerated tank will also allow us to store the contents of the flue pan and front pan for extended periods when the sap isn't running.

Hope this helps.

[maple flats]

Wow ennis, I was apparently well off back when I had my greatest number of taps and bought sap, not in processing ability, but back then I had a 1000 gal permeate tank and it frequently over flowed. My sap storage was OK and my RO was undersized but I made it work with no all nighter after the 2x I had all nighters way back in my first season. That's when I had 79 taps , no RO and a 2x3 (actually a 23.5" x 33" I think is what Leader half pints actually measured if I recall. If those aren't the actual sizes they are close.
In fact I didn't realize how off Leader's measurements were until I ordered a new set of pans from Thor, I ordered a 3x3 syrup pan and a 3x5 flue pan with 10" high flues to replace my 3x2 syrup pan and a 3x6 flue pan by Leader on my 3x8 arch. I ordered without measuring and when I got the new pans they wouldn't fit the arch. Then I measured the new ones, as the old ones had already been sold. The Thor pans were exactly on, but the arch was about 2" too short. with the old pans, which had plenty of room it had a 1" thick insulation between the 2 pans, the new one had a much better gasket with a crimped metal around the 1/4" thick gasket. I'm guessing between the 2 pans Leader shorted the pans a combined 3" or so. I had to remove the cast base stack support and make a new one that was shorter enough front to back to work. I made it using 1/2" thick steel,3/4" wide straping welded on a hole that was wider and but shorter front to back to fit the base stack. It worked well, but from then on I avoided any equipment by Leader. I don't know if other manufacturers lie about pan sizes, but that turned me off about Leader. I do know that Thor makes them true to size.
I've now gotten an A&A evaporator as I go smaller in my operation, I should measure to compare size but since everything was made by A&A it fits perfectly. It's soldered, not welded, but my first 3 evaporators were all soldered and I never had any issues. This one is also mill finish rather than mirror finish, but that helped bring the cost down to what I wanted to spend with my plans going forward. I'll go anywhere from 200 to 425 on my bush, but could also get another 75 or so off a neighbor possibly if I decide I need more.
My main concern is to make enough syrup to maintain my current sales, as I sell everything retail.

[mainebackswoodssyrup]

We just sold our 4x15 evaporator to a guy who has 7400 taps. He had a 3x12 and boiled concentrate in upper teens. Like anything, it's a function of time vs. equipment cost/upgrade cost and potentially fuel cost. Our 4x15 made 50 gallons/syrup per hour at 18%. At half the size, I would expect the 3x10 to do half that at the same brix. To get that with 7400 taps, probably looking at a 3 or 4 post RO.
Personally, I would look for a bigger evaporator or at the very least add a steam-away to a 3x10 to increase efficiency. Or look into high brix RO concentrators if you want to keep the 3x10.

[ennismaple]

We just sold our 4x15 evaporator to a guy who has 7400 taps. He had a 3x12 and boiled concentrate in upper teens. Like anything, it's a function of time vs. equipment cost/upgrade cost and potentially fuel cost. Our 4x15 made 50 gallons/syrup per hour at 18%. At half the size, I would expect the 3x10 to do half that at the same brix. To get that with 7400 taps, probably looking at a 3 or 4 post RO.
Personally, I would look for a bigger evaporator or at the very least add a steam-away to a 3x10 to increase efficiency. Or look into high brix RO concentrators if you want to keep the 3x10.

Agreed - it's a matter of how long do you want to boil. We aim for no more than 5 hours or the front pans get really nitred-up. We typically sit at about 40 GPH finished syrup once we're at full boil so your numbers make sense.

For 10,000 gallons of sap (about 1.5 GPT for 7000 taps) you'll make 1000 gallons of 18-ish Brix concentrate. That will be an 8 hour boil, plus startup and cleanup - leaving little to no time to spend in the woods. On a good day with 2 GPT it's 12+ hours of boiling.

Personally - I'd rather spend more time in the woods than in the sugar camp.

[ecp]

Like others are saying it is all in how much time you want to spend in the sugar house and the woods. Tank storage depends on how much time you have to be around. For reference there are producers around me that run over 20k taps on a 3x12 so I don't think you running 7K on a 3x10 is complete out of the possibility. I would say if you went that route you will need a large RO that can get you in the high 20's, low 30's (single pass) and about 2 gallons per tap tank storage. Likely something in the 5K gallons of storage for permeate. The issue you might run into is not having enough sap to start your RO on low flow days so you may need to hold sap for a day or 2. if you are going high concentrate, I would recommend going oil fired with the evaporator because things can go downhill fast.

[JoeJ]

I have an OIL FIRED (only way I would ever boil) 3'x10' with a steam away. I have 3,400 taps and a 2 post RO. I would suggest you getting a 3 post RO. I RO to 16-18%.

These are actual sap volumes and boiling time for that amount of sap concentrated.
4,780 gallons 4:45
4,300 gallons 4:10
6,140 gallons 5:10
4,404 gallons 4:10
6,647 gallons 5:40 So if you have double my tap number and use a 3x10 with a steamaway you will spend double my time boiling. That is why I would get a 3x12.

[ecp]

On the topic of a steam away. Yes, I have one (well it's a piggyback but same principal). Think about your operation before you buy one is all I am saying. Here is an example if a steam away cost $7,500 to $10,000 to add to your evaporator and an additional RO post cost around $8,000 in my opinion you would be crazy to buy a steam away because that RO post will remove more water than the steam away could dream of touching. I would get a 6 or 7 post RO (I am partial to CDL but pick what works for you) with the last 2 posts being high pressure posts in your situation. The cheapest upstart cost is going to be a larger evaporator with a smaller RO but the cheapest operating cost is going to be a bigger RO you will need to find an ROI that works for your situation. This is just an opinion I would like to stress you need to do what works for you.