Shurflo lift questions

[DMF]

I did some scouting of a new property to tap. It has a lot of trees to tap however it's totally off grid; I definitely need a solar powered system.

One of the best areas for a mainline is textbook; it runs in a valley with steep slopes on either side for several lateral locations. The problem is the collection area. Where the run would end is about 20' lower in elevation than where I can access with my truck/pump. From the end of the run, it goes up 20' up over a 60' distance, then slopes back down towards the access road 10' in elevation for approximately 225'.

Can a shurflo pump up that high to get to my access point or would I have to put a tank low down at the bottom of the run and complicate the system by having another solar powered pump to lift the sap to my access point? I have a good area near the access point for my solar panels, down by the end of the run, not so much. I'd probably have to run around 200' of wire from a location where the panels would get good sun to the end of the run.

This will be my first mainline installation as well as my first solar/shurflo pump design (on my own property I run 3/16 lines into lunchbox releasers) so any help is greatly appreciated!

[maple flats]

I guess it would depend on the specific Shurflo pump, that would be too much for many shurflo pumps. You would need to read the specs, look at the head rating, that is how many feet the pump will push water up above the pump. You also need to consider line friction loss.
My gut instint says you would be better off with a small 2 cycle pump, or even a Honda WX10, and use either 1/2" line or better yet 3/4" for faster delivery.
You need to realize if you go the Shurflo route, just because the numbers say it will work, the speed of transfer will also need to be considered.
Don't just guess, study and understand the specifications (specs) on what the manufacturer says tests have shown, then realize the numbers are on a 100% fully charged battery or maybe even a 120 to 12V transformer.
In my past I pumped sap long distances, but the longest was a net downhill of 15', while pumping sap over 900' distance. It started as a 7' lift, then downhill 15' thus from the 7' height it was 22' downhill, in a 1.5" line. My other one was only a lift of 6 feet, then downhill for about 40 feet to the pump, then up maybe 6' into 2 IBC totes. Neither were like what you want to do. Maybe someone will chime in who has done it similar to what you need.
A thing to consider, if you decide to go Shurflo, what about a tank where you can get your truck to, a tank at the low area in the valley and a Shurflo pushing from the low tank up to the truck tank location, then the shurflo can push sap as it reaches the lower tank and when you get to the second tank, That way you won't need to watch the shurflo move the sap slowly. the sap is already in the close tank, ready to pump onto your truck or trailer tank.

[DMF]

A thing to consider, if you decide to go Shurflo, what about a tank where you can get your truck to, a tank at the low area in the valley and a Shurflo pushing from the low tank up to the truck tank location, then the shurflo can push sap as it reaches the lower tank and when you get to the second tank, That way you won't need to watch the shurflo move the sap slowly. the sap is already in the close tank, ready to pump onto your truck or trailer tank.

Hi Dave,
Yes. I think that would work, but it's what I am trying to avoid. I think maybe I didn't ask my question correctly or it's too dumb of a question to even be asking. I was wondering (hoping) that I could put the shurflo pump at the "easy access" tank and extend the mainline tubing past my lowest tree and up the hill to the "easy access" tank. Would the shurflo pull the sap via the vacuum uphill that much?

Also, I took my GPS there today and entered a waypoint at the bottom of the valley and another at the top of the rise I'd like to suck the sap up and according to the elevation readings it's only a 10 foot rise (though it seems more than that when I'm standing there)

[BAP]

How many taps do you estimate is there? If you can keep good tight lines and get your vacuum up to upper teens to low 20’s, sap will come up the line. Vacuum is vacuum, it doesn’t know the difference between what made it.

[SeanD]

That may be too much pushing uphill for the one Shurflo and you'll see the loss on the vacuum side. If I understand it right, you may need to have a dedicated pump to push the sap up over the hill to a tank you can pick up from. You could have a float switch so it turns on/off when there is sap in the lower tank. A second Shurflo could do that. It would be slow, but if it has all day to do it, the sap should be there when you come by to collect - and you are still working with 12v. How many taps are you putting in this spot?

[DMF]

How many taps do you estimate is there?

I haven't done a count in that area yet, but I know there is well over 100 to be tapped, likely close to 200. I walked the northwest line of the property and got 100 there but that will be on a different line and pump and has easy road access. The southeast end is where I'm struggling with this problem. How many taps can a Shurflo pump handle?


That may be too much pushing uphill for the one Shurflo and you'll see the loss on the vacuum side.

I think my original question wasn't clear enough. I really don't want to "push" the sap; I'm wondering if the pump can vacuum and "lift" the sap to my easy access site.

[maple flats]

If over 100, or maybe even close to two hundred, I think you are asking too much from a Shurflo, especially for it to pull the sap, one of the larger Shurflo pumps however should be able to push the sap up.
You have lots of thim, try to find an old dairy pump and put it on a gas engine. Then you can pull it up using vacuum, in about 10' lifts, or just use a small gas powered pump to push it up from the low tank. Get a pump with enough "head", that's the feet in elevation the pump is rated to push water above the pump. That will work fine and if you use the right size piping to move the sap you will move it easily. Don't undersize the pipe diameter or it may not work to your satisfaction.
Just as a comparison, years ago I had to pump water up about 12 feet in elevation over a distance of 1500'. I first hooked up a 3hp gas powered pump (specs unknown) and used the piping I had. It started with 2" hose for 40', then connected to 1.5" pipe for about 740' then it split into 3 1" pipes the rest of the way. I got about 8-9 gpm out the upper end at my irrigation pond. I did that for one season. Then before the next season, I got 1500' of 2" pipe and hooked it to the same 3hp pump. With that I got over 35 gph from that same pump. It's all about line friction. Also, on the first season with the mish mosh of pipes getting the 1500' done a tank of gas (about 1.5 qts of gas) it ran just over 45 minutes before the gas was gone, after the change I got a little over 75 minutes on the same tank full of gas. I was doing it to get water to 4.5 acres of blueberries during a severe drought, mush worse than I'd ever seen before. Pipe diameter made a huge improvement, 2" vs. 2" to 1.5" to 3@ 1", but that was what I had onhand.

[DMF]

Hi Dave, I thought about a gas-powered dairy pump but it just seems so costly to run everyday.

[DrTimPerkins]

Sounds like the elusive search for a solution that works well, doesn't break the bank, and is efficient. I'm sure you know this, but I think the old saying goes something like:

Cheap, good, or fast -- pick one, sacrifice the other two.

If you're lucky, sometime you may get 1 1/2 of those goals at the same time. If you're extra lucky, maybe 2.

As Dave suggests, explore carefully your possible solutions and costs, then calculate the payback time for each given your anticipated production increase (most people overestimate -- subtract at least 10% of that to be conservative).

[maple flats]

You won't likely need to run a gas pump all of the time, based on what you described the terrain like. You said it's a valley , steep sides with a valley in the bottom. Use 3/16 tubing, with 5/16 drops and taps. That way, as the trees freeze they are much less likely able to pull sap back into the taphole, a big contributor to eacly taphole dry up. The 3/26 will get you gravity vaccum, have it empty into a tank at the bottom. Then have a gas pump to push the sap up to where you can get your truck to with a tank. Keep in mind that you will need to drive thru snow most seasons, or plow the roadway. Then only run the gas powered pump to push the sap up to either another tank, and then into the truck tank, of all in one step into the truck tank. Then shut the pump off until you get another load.
Doing it this way, you get vacuum compliments of never failing gravity and only use gas to move already collected sap to the truck. That way a gallon of gas will go a long way.
Just realize that 3/16 requires much more attention than 5/16 laterals, but on the plus side it gives you free vacuum. On the must do side, you need to clean the tubing after the season and before the next season again, and you need to change the Tees where each drop joins the lateral every year. If that fails you will get a very large % of the tees that plug with little debris and block all sap flow. On the plus side you can connect 25-30 taps on a single lateral on 3/16 tubing, on 5/16 you should keep the taps at 5 per lateral and never more than 10. Just those numbers mean that you save a load of cash on saddles using 3/16.
Yes, those numbers look wrong, but they are correct, you can have far more taps on a 3/16 lateral as long as you have a good drop in elevation.
Another thing to watch, when you tap, I highly suggest you tap when the sap is flowing, not way ahead. My reasoning is because when the sap is flowing, it helps flush out drill shavings that would tend to plug the tees. An alternative I've used most seasons, is I always carry several spare tees as I walk my lines, anyone that is plugged, I cut the old one out and replace it, right then. I had about 200 taps on 3/16 laterals and I might have needed 25 replacements thru a season, if I tapped and let the flow flush out drill shavings, If I failed that part I might of had to replace half or more.
You worry about the cost of operation, I ask you, what is a gallon of sap worth to you? To me it's worth about $.45-.55 each, don't cut off your nose to spite your face (old saying, still true today.
The whole point is to collect as much sap as possible while investing the least, that applies to material costs as well a labor, both are costs to be figured into the whole process of making maple syrup or for that matter anything you do in any arena.
Design a system that will work well, and only cut corners when it will make things work better or save you time. For most maple producers in season time is a precious!

[DMF]

I guess natural vacuum is the best solution for that area for now anyway. I am familiar with 3/16 tubing as my own sugarbush has an 80' elevation change from the top trees to the collection points so I used natural vacuum for a few years until I added some lunch box releasers. What I did not know was your suggestion about the tees, but it makes sense. We usually tap when the sap is starting to run so maybe it hasn't been too much of an issue for us, or maybe the lunchbox releasers help keep them clear but we've rarely had to replace tees during the season for sap flow (squirrel chews, yes). Also, I never replace my tees on a yearly basis. I use zapbac spouts and change the whole drop every three years. I do flush the 3/16 lines every year with hot water, then sanitized and re-rinsed again before the season.


Keep in mind that you will need to drive thru snow most seasons, or plow the roadway.

This is the whole issue in a nutshell. The road into the location is just a muddy logging trail. I have a 4WD pickup with some aggressive tires and I don't dare to drive to that location even now and it's the end of April. I'll have to find a way to lug my gas powered transfer pump through the woods (jet sled?) down to the tank.

[DMF]

I guess natural vacuum is the best solution for that area for now anyway. I am familiar with 3/16 tubing as my own sugarbush has an 80' elevation change from the top trees to the collection points so I used natural vacuum for a few years until I added some lunch box releasers. What I did not know was your suggestion about the tees, but it makes sense. We usually tap when the sap is starting to run so maybe it hasn't been too much of an issue for us, or maybe the lunchbox releasers help keep them clear but we've rarely had to replace tees during the season for sap flow (squirrel chews, yes). Also, I never replace my tees on a yearly basis. I use zapbac spouts and change the whole drop every three years. I do flush the 3/16 lines every year with hot water, then sanitized and re-rinsed again before the season.


Keep in mind that you will need to drive thru snow most seasons, or plow the roadway.

This is the whole issue in a nutshell. The road into the location is just a muddy logging trail. I have a 4WD pickup with some aggressive tires and I don't dare to drive to that location even now and it's the end of April. I'll have to find a way to lug my gas powered transfer pump through the woods (jet sled?) down to the tank.

[maple flats]

I also change drops every 3 years, but I found the issue of plugged Tees with the tiny hole in the fittings resulting in a blockage. at the few cents for a Tee, it just made so much more sence to just change everyone. I suppose you could just wait until one (or 50 ) plugged on the same day, bI just preferred to do the chaqnge before that happened.
Also I never ran 3/16 that was also not on high mechanical vacuum, my only lease where I ran it, I had a large section with about 60-85' elevation drop, that got 3/16 laterals, all with 5/26 taps and drops, but those laterals ran into a whole system with mechanical vacuum on it too. That lease however only had 19" of vacuum, because it was using a Surge vacuum tank, rated for 20" max, I never pushed it. I had seen a picture where a producer put too much vacuum to a vacuum tank and the tank looked like sn imploded soda can, just scrap value.

[BAP]

I guess natural vacuum is the best solution for that area for now anyway. I am familiar with 3/16 tubing as my own sugarbush has an 80' elevation change from the top trees to the collection points so I used natural vacuum for a few years until I added some lunch box releasers. What I did not know was your suggestion about the tees, but it makes sense. We usually tap when the sap is starting to run so maybe it hasn't been too much of an issue for us, or maybe the lunchbox releasers help keep them clear but we've rarely had to replace tees during the season for sap flow (squirrel chews, yes). Also, I never replace my tees on a yearly basis. I use zapbac spouts and change the whole drop every three years. I do flush the 3/16 lines every year with hot water, then sanitized and re-rinsed again before the season.



This is the whole issue in a nutshell. The road into the location is just a muddy logging trail. I have a 4WD pickup with some aggressive tires and I don't dare to drive to that location even now and it's the end of April. I'll have to find a way to lug my gas powered transfer pump through the woods (jet sled?) down to the tank.

If you are flushing your lines out each year, then changing the tees out is unnecessary and a waste of time/money for you. Flushing will push out the junk that plugs up the tees. Is the logging road where you would have to push the sap up to to load up? Or is it the access to where the low point is and the tank should be located?

[DMF]

If you are flushing your lines out each year, then changing the tees out is unnecessary and a waste of time/money for you. Flushing will push out the junk that plugs up the tees. Is the logging road where you would have to push the sap up to to load up? Or is it the access to where the low point is and the tank should be located?
The logging road brings me to where the low point is. To get to the paved road I have to pump up from that spot around 10' - 12' in elevation and approximately 280-300 feet. The valley actually is a brook that runs all the way to the road, but it is not all on the property I have permission to tap. That property is Massachusetts Turnpike Authority and is fenced off; no way to get permission to run the line through it.

I am thinking that if I can't set up vacuum and need to use natural vacuum, I'll set up a tank(s) at the low spot where the fence is and then run 1" water pipe along the fence to my road access. I'll put banjo fittings on either end and that way I only need to lug my gas pump and a short hose to the tanks. On the road end I'll connect a longer hose from the water pipe to the tanks on the truck. It would be essentially how I pump now but with a long stretch of "permanently mounted water pipe between the pump and the tank fill hose.

[maple flats]

If you are flushing your lines out each year, then changing the tees out is unnecessary and a waste of time/money for you. Flushing will push out the junk that plugs up the tees. Is the logging road where you would have to push the sap up to to load up? Or is it the access to where the low point is and the tank should be located?
BAP If you make that statement you have little or no experience using 3/16 lateral lines. I have about 8 years using it, if you try to use the same tees from year to year, it will bite you hard, right when the sap is trying to flow its hardest.

[BAP]

BAP If you make that statement you have little or no experience using 3/16 lateral lines. I have about 8 years using it, if you try to use the same tees from year to year, it will bite you hard, right when the sap is trying to flow its hardest.
I guess you don’t know everything that you think you think you do Dave. I just finished my 8th season with 3/16” on 125 taps. Wash my lines every year. I have never replaced or unplugged a Tee in my 6 lines I have. The only Tee replacement I have done is when making repairs for chews or breaks from tree branches falling. So to make the assumption that everyone has to replace their Tees each year in order to make 3/16” work, doesn’t hold true. Maybe you need to do that in order to make it work for you, but I don’t.

[Super Sapper]

I have been using 3/16 on a hybrid (natural vac and shurflo) system. Some of the woods has good natural vac and some is flat. Plugging of the tees can be a problem for some. I have to take down the lines every year and put pack up in January. For that reason I just go with new everything each year. The extra sap from using new versus reusing makes up the difference for me along with less time installing. As far as if you should replace tees, it is up to you. If a tee is $.40, that equals about a quart of sap for me using $18/Qt retail for syrup. There is a cost to replacing but then you take the gamble of if one plugs and where on the lateral it is located. How much sap is lost if it plugs in the middle of the lat and is not noticed for a couple of runs? Everyone has a different situation, you have to make the best decision for you while keeping it fun.

[littleTapper]

I guess you don’t know everything that you think you think you do Dave. I just finished my 8th season with 3/16” on 125 taps. Wash my lines every year. I have never replaced or unplugged a Tee in my 6 lines I have. The only Tee replacement I have done is when making repairs for chews or breaks from tree branches falling. So to make the assumption that everyone has to replace their Tees each year in order to make 3/16” work, doesn’t hold true. Maybe you need to do that in order to make it work for you, but I don’t.

6 years on three runs of 3/16 for me. Wash out lines after the season and a flush of water before on a warmer day before tapping. Have not plugged yet nor replaced a T.

[maple flats]

You've been lucky then, I still won't chance it at $.34 a tee, it's cheap insurance in my book and the time is during the fall cleanup before the weather starts getting cold. I final rinse with water, then change the tees and put a new tap on. Every 3rd year the whole drop gets replaced, so it's new tees on about 2/3 of my drops and new tee, drop and tap on about the remaining 1/3

[maple flats]

Before I started changing tees every season, I had as I recall about 3 tees plug, out of about 150 taps. Since I use 3/16 x 3/16 x 5/16 tees, the blockage stopped at a 3/16 fitting, that closed off all sap flow upstream not just 1 tap. In my book that was not acceptable, that's why I started replacing tees. It was not my original idea, I read it somewhere that others were doing it. Back then I think a tee was about $.26 or $.27 each. I've been doing it ever since and will continue. As I say, it's cheap insurance. I suppose possibly you rinse better than I did, but I'll never know because at the price of a new Tee I won't experiment and risk it.

[DMF]

How many taps do you have Dave and how long does it take to you change them out each year? If you do a rinse before the season starts, wouldn't that tell you if a tee was blocked or not?

[maple flats]

BAP, I've never said I know everything, in fact I've made sure to only comment on things I've had experience with, or I open my comments saying I'm just guessing. But, I'll stick with my opinion to replace my tees every year, you can certainly do what has worked for you, obviously it works for you.
I however have seen lots of comments from those who use 3/16 about issues with them plugging up and blocking sap flow.
In your obviously superior experience, what do you suggest those who get plug ups on 3/16 do to avoid the plugging? I'll await your suggestions. Maybe telling how you wash the lines , that might be the determining factor. Once I read about your method I will try it, maybe I can save the time and money and use the same Tees year after year. Please be spefific to help us who have no idea how to clean them so we can also experience no plugging. I'm serious, I want to learn how you get the laterals so clean.
Dave

[DMF]

I'm serious, I want to learn how you get the laterals so clean.
Dave

I don't know how BAP does his but this is how I do mine.

End of season I pull the taps and let everything drain for a few days.

Next, I take a tank of (as hot as I can get) water down to the lower end of the sugar bush. I use homemade lunchbox releasers so I switch the in and out lines to suck the water out of the tank and push it up the lines. Those soda pumps will push uphill over 80' in elevation; it gets slow near the top but it does it. I walk the lines uphill and plug each spout into the tee when I get to it and the water is flowing freely. Once I get to the top i walk back down and start the next line. When that one is done, I usually walk down the previous line and pull all the spouts from the tees to let it drain again.

The next step is to repeat the process with a hot water-Calcium Hypochlorite solution, the difference being that I don't walk down the previous line and unplug; I let the solution sit in the lines.

Ideally, if I have the time, after the solution has sat in the lines for a few days I'll repeat the initial water rinse, and do a rinse in the fall again. What realistically happens is the solution sits in the lines most of the summer or at least until some of the spouts somehow become unplugged fro the tees on their own and the line drains out. Either way they get rinsed in the fall.

In my experience, I've never had to replace a tee due to a blockage, only for leaks due to squirrel chews.

[maple flats]

DMF, do you get any plugging in your tees? I'll give my method, to compare, however I got some plugging and then I started changing the Tees every year, (2 yrs change them, the 3rd year whole new drop, every year new tap.
I , in my first year, filled a tote (IBC) with about 125 gal of good potable water, mixed in 2 qts food grade hydrogen peroxide (35% solution mixed into the water) but after yr 1 I changed to using only water, after reading that others were using just water). I then used a lab wash bottle, the first year I think it was 500ML, year 2 and beyond I got a 32oz wash bottle. I also carried a 2 gal drink type cooler jug. I walked to the last tap, pulled it, squirted maybe 100-125 ml into the tap , held the tap so the mixture sat in it for about 30 seconds, then lifted it and gravity took it down the drop and down the lateral. I then pushed the tap onto the parking stub and walked to the next tap. I repeated until the wash bottle was empty, then I refilled it from the jug I was carrying. I got about 4-5 taps from the 500ml bottle. In yr 2 I found a 32oz wash bottle and I used that, with it I cleaned about 8-9 taps, then refilled from the jug. Starting in yr 2 I only used water, no longer used food grade hydrogen peroxide.
A few years later, I tried and decided to continue using 3/16 on flat ground and even on places where I was pulling sap from below the mainline. In all of these, from yr 1 on I also had mechanical vacuum, in my earliest uses of 3/16 I had lots of elevation drop and had no places where I was pulling across level or up from lower areas, that came later.
Once I stopped using the lease where I had good elevation drop I was reducing my bush, the landowner was planning to take it over and he has now done so.
On my bush, surrounding my sugarhouse is where I experimented with level and then pulling from below the mainline using vacuum. My first try was just 3 laterals at the end of a mainline, where previously I had actually tapped using a short extension ladder to get slope. I then tried tapping at 4-5 ft above the ground using 3/16 laterals and 5/16 drops and taps. I had a line of 7 taps, another of 11 taps and I think the biggest in length had 15 or 16 taps. The mainline had 26-27" of vacuum on it. That worked so well the next year I tried expanding to an area across the driveway into the sugarhouse, all below the mainline and across the driveway. I had a lateral of 25 sugars, a lateral of 25 reds and another lateral of 26 reds. All 3 were 3/16 laterals, each went to a 3 stem red maple next to the driveway. From there I used an elbow upside down, the one leg faced up rather than down. The lateral went up to a limb just over 14' off the ground, then it went over that limb across the driveway to a sugar maple , over a limb at the sugar around the trunk then it angled down towards the mainline about 16' away at maybe a 35 degree decline and entered the mainline using a saddle.
When I cleaned that 3 lateral set up I used the 32 oz wash bottle and clean water. I notice you used hot water, I never tried hot water, I was using water at ambient temperature, because it came from municipal water, I let it set in a SS tank for 3+ days to get rid of chlorine. It was likely about 38-45 degrees F
Whilew I could have used hydrogen peroxide in my water I never did after that first year, not because of the price but rather because year 1 showed that while I didn't realize it when using it, my chlothes told otherwise. After the next washing I discovered I'd gotten some spray , mist and even some larger amounts of liquid on my clothes based on lots of bleaching. I at that time was also in water treatment and I could buy 15 gal barrels of food grade hydrogen peroxide for about $120 at that time, where as a 1 gal jug of it cost $35 plus shipping, The $120 included the shipping and it was 15 gal. It was used in some water treatment systems to treat bad water as in e-coli and other bacteria. I still washed the laterals, cold water and just plain water at that. I just never even considered heating the water. That method stuck with me ever since while I replaced the Tees every year. My experience using this method it why I said the Tee needs to be replaced every year, also any connector too but those are few and far between.

I'll await to read how BAP cleans his lines if he ever responds. Maybe my error was the temperature or the the amount of solution or when I used the hydrogen peroxide, the contact time.
Dave

[BAP]

BAP, I've never said I know everything, in fact I've made sure to only comment on things I've had experience with, or I open my comments saying I'm just guessing. But, I'll stick with my opinion to replace my tees every year, you can certainly do what has worked for you, obviously it works for you.
I however have seen lots of comments from those who use 3/16 about issues with them plugging up and blocking sap flow.
In your obviously superior experience, what do you suggest those who get plug ups on 3/16 do to avoid the plugging? I'll await your suggestions. Maybe telling how you wash the lines , that might be the determining factor. Once I read about your method I will try it, maybe I can save the time and money and use the same Tees year after year. Please be spefific to help us who have no idea how to clean them so we can also experience no plugging. I'm serious, I want to learn how you get the laterals so clean.
Dave
Dave, you told me in your post that I don’t know anything about using 3/16”. You started it. I am telling you that I use it without having to replace a lot of parts. At the end of the season, I do the same thing that I have for the past 45 years. I pump water with some chlorine in it through the lines. I know everyone will say chlorine causes squirrels to chew but fact of the matter is, squirrels will chew new tubing too. Yes, there is a trade off using chlorine, it can increase the squirrel chews. But, by pumping water through, I find leaks that are hard to find on 3/16 without added vacuum, the lines are cleaner and I have no issues with plugging. I let the drops hang for several days then go back through a plug them. I know research shows that cleaning is not effective, but remember that most research is paid for by the companies that are selling new equipment and they aren’t going to keep paying for research that doesn’t support buying new equipment.

[DrTimPerkins]

…but remember that most research is paid for by the companies that are selling new equipment and they aren’t going to keep paying for research that doesn’t support buying new equipment.

This is certainly NOT the case for research done in the U.S. Research is typically funded by grants or industry (NAMSC grants or association donations). Very little to none is funded by maple equipment companies. Occasionally there is some donations of equipment, but in that case there cannot be any strings attached or an ability of the companies to vet the results ahead of their release. It is pretty much hands off. Typically we purchase (at regular prices) the vast majority of equipment and supplies we test and/or utilize.

[johnallin]

Have to believe that what Dr Tim says is correct.
I’m going for popcorn ��

[maple flats]

BAP, I'm still waiting to learn how you clean the 3/16 lines so you don't get any plugged tees. Please educate us all, it could make the use of 3/16 laterals far more adventacious for many. There are a lot of producers who try 3/16, but then quit it bacause of plugging issues.
Dave

[DRoseum]

Not sure about others, but I clean 3/16 by pumping cleaning solution up the tubing from the bottom, using a booster pump, allowing it to flow out through each drop line, filling the lines entirely and letting sit for ~24 hrs before draining and coiling them up. Haven't had a blockage in 4 years and lines look as clean as new. Have replaced a handful of cracked tees across 8 lines and 112 taps, but none of them have shown any form of residue or blockage.

https://youtu.be/FUrzZQOcyb4?si=X36Vybe8tVFDT6r4

Also back to original thread - I use 2 diaphragm pumps in series (shurflo and aquatec) to pull vacuum and push sap immediately up a 40 ft hill to avoid a 2nd collection tank at that low point for approximately 30 taps. Works great, but I have power at that location which OP does not.

[DrTimPerkins]

Have to believe that what Dr Tim says is correct.

My apologies for hijacking the thread a bit....but just to reinforce what I said earlier....UVM PMRC BOUGHT every spout and every foot of lateral or mainline we test at PMRC. We even PAID to have tubing systems installed by maple equipment companies or installers. That includes ALL Check-valve spouts we ever tested. Never got any free....ever. We'll sometimes buy things we're not really that interested in, but have gotten questions about. Those things tend to get used for research for year or two, then discarded. We've sold some stuff back to companies for pennies on the dollar that they turned around and sold at a profit again.

As I said, we have gotten equipment donations from time-to-time, but we are always clear that there can be no strings attached on what we do with it or what we write or say about what we find. We have occasionally gotten discounts on items, but that is not unlike what ANY maple producer can get if they buy a lot of stuff and ask for a discount. The vast majority of the equipment we've gotten (at least for the 25+ yrs I've been there) we have purchased outright. More importantly perhaps, no maple company has paid for any personnel time to do research. The maple companies don't "own" us or dictate what we can say.

Instead...we spend a LOT of time and effort writing grant proposals and we are very good at it.

About 1/3 of PMRC funding comes from UVM sources (which ultimately derive from Federal funds, typically USDA Hatch research and Agricultural Experiment Station funding). Depending on the year and grants, about another 1/3 might come from competitive grants (ACER ACCESS, USDA SARE, USDA NIFA, etc.). The remainder comes from gifts, donations, and maple syrup sales income. Less than 5% typically comes from competitive North American Maple Syrup Council grants (the penny per container you might pay for plastic from SugarHill containers).

We have not typically done the so-called "research for $" type of thing that is done in some places, where companies fund specific pieces of research. I'm not opposed to it under certain conditions, but I don't really like that approach much, because I can't see agreeing to keep the results proprietary (meaning the company could choose to disclose or withhold the results if they wanted). We may talk to companies to see what kinds of questions they have, but we do the same thing with producers.

This may not the case with research coming from other places, especially north of the border. It is a totally different system and I'm not saying that is (entirely) bad...but it is very different that what is typically done in the U.S. (with maple) and seemingly could lend itself to bias in some cases. However, I don't know how those agreements and funding arrangements are set up, so who really knows?

[DrTimPerkins]

There are a lot of producers who try 3/16, but then quit it bacause of plugging issues.

I would say that is true for many producers. If they are large enough to justify a pump, they tend to go that route. I feel it was over-recommended at the beginning by equipment companies. It should have never been recommended or used in flat or low slope installations. A good number who put 3/16" in their woods and then pulled it out and replaced it with 5/16" and a pump. It mainly has caught on with smaller producers who can't justify a pump, those with really good slope, and those who have figured out good sanitation methods that work for them. It does and will continue to have its place in the maple world.

Unfortunately it takes a while for research to catch up to practice sometimes. Hard to study sanitation in 3/16" tubing until it was out there for 2-4 yrs.