#1 reason for delicious but Less Maple-y maple syrup

[tgormley358]

Subject line intended as a question, I’m looking for answers and wisdom from those more experienced. Early days as a hobby sugar maker around 7 years ago with 10 taps, and even when I increased to 20 then 30, let’s say the first few years, people used to tell me my syrup was not only delicious but more maple-y than what they bought in stores. I was proud of that. But the last couple of years (100-200 taps), I’m hearing that less, and also heard from one customer that my syrup is delicious but less maple-y than others they’ve tasted. The changes over that time include using tubing vs only buckets, RO to at most 4-6%, and flat filtering vs cone filtering. This customer brought me a sample of my syrup which they bought, and another local New England brand, which they said was more maple-y. Aafter tasting both I had to agree 100%. My syrup is still 100% delicious, but I’d like to get back the strong maple taste, which I find hard to describe but I know it when I taste it. Know what I mean, anyone? I don’t want and don’t think I need to go back to all buckets in order to achieve this. So, what do you think are the most important 2 or 3 factors to get the most maple-y taste in your syrup?

[tgormley358]

Anticipating likely questions, I can add that I’ve always Boiled in stainless steel, generally oil the same day as collecting in bottle in class or plastic, as soon as I have hot syrup. Actually, I did start packing in 5 gallon plastic a couple years ago. When went above 15 gallons of syrup.

[Bricklayer]

Are you making lighter syrup than you once did ?
Generally
Golden is the least mapley but still mapley
Amber is a little more mapley ( generally what’s sold in stores and what most producers sell )
Dark has a definitive robust mapely taste.
Very dark has an earthy mapley taste.

There are times that an amber tastes like a dark or vise versa. But in general the lighter the grade the less mapley it is.

I’m sure there may be some science behind what you are talking about between buckets and tubing. But I’m not sure if it’s been tested before.
I’m sure Dr Tim might have a better explanation.

[tgormley358]

I’ve actually been making less Golden Del and more amber and dark, which I’ve attributed to RO’ing to only 4-6%, which others here have explained and now makes sense to me. I’d love to hear from Dr Tim on this question. Thanks


Are you making lighter syrup than you once did ?
Generally
Golden is the least mapley but still mapley
Amber is a little more mapley ( generally what’s sold in stores and what most producers sell )
Dark has a definitive robust mapely taste.
Very dark has an earthy mapley taste.

There are times that an amber tastes like a dark or vise versa. But in general the lighter the grade the less mapley it is.

I’m sure there may be some science behind what you are talking about between buckets and tubing. But I’m not sure if it’s been tested before.
I’m sure Dr Tim might have a better explanation.

[berkshires]

It could be something that has changed in your process, but from a distance we are unlikely to be able to pinpoint that. But more likely it is this: There is a lot of variability in what the trees put out from year to year. At least that has been my experience. Some years I've thought my syrup was fantastic, and other years only okay.

So if you can pinpoint something you know is different, sure, try fixing it. But keep in mind that if things get better or worse after your changes, the flavor profile difference may have more to do with what the trees are putting out than what you did.

Another thing to consider is the trees you're tapping. If, as you grew, you picked up a new sugar bush, it is certainly possible that the trees from that area just have a different flavor profile than the bush you started off with.

Cheers,

GO

[Wannabe]

Were all your pans, flue type pans? I know I usually prefer syrup that's batch boiled in a flat pan over syrup that spends minimal time boiling in a flue pan.

[tgormley358]

Were all your pans, flue type pans? I know I usually prefer syrup that's batch boiled in a flat pan over syrup that spends minimal time boiling in a flue pan.

Boiling in a 2x5 Lapierre with 5” raised flues in back. Always used raised flue so that’s not a change. If I were to guess, I’d guess others would say cleaning should be on the list of factors, maybe close to the top,
Since there are so many places to clean, as I’ve increased taps, from tubing to spouts to fittings, hoses and pumps, tanks, evaporator, finishing equipment. During the season I’ll flush and clean my head tank and evaporator several times when there’s a break usually, but not every boil. I still work full time and boil at night during the week, so there’s just not enough time to be extremely fastidious.

I cleaned everything in the recent freeze and started boiling again last night and so far so good. I work in the field of continuous improvement so applying that to my sugaring, I will try changing one thing and see if that makes a difference, just thought I’d check in first with this amazing community for input in what that first change should be. I have already made one significant change this year - I cut out my RO. Curious what that will do. Thanks all! I’ll write back if I learn anything.

[Brian]

A big factor is weather, rain wind etc. The old timers around here said if the wind blows and cracks the limbs a little in the fall the sap will be sweeter the next spring. The soil is one of the factors of the flavor. We have different flavors as the season goes on and we only make med and light because every thing is clean and procesed in 30 hrs or less. Some years the flavor is better than others but that is aroll of the dice. I once tapped a bunch of trees at the neighbors where the cows stood under when it rained and or shade.The trees there always tested 4%. So when you get all done you still don't really know. People ask me "Is IT Going To Be A Good Year?" and I say I will tell you when it is over.

[DrTimPerkins]

I’ve actually been making less Golden Del and more amber and dark, which I’ve attributed to RO’ing to only 4-6%, which others here have explained and now makes sense to me. I’d love to hear from Dr Tim on this question. Thanks

Lots of factors affect syrup color and flavor - far too many to discuss here, but RO concentration to less than 10% can produce darker syrup. Above that it tends to get lighter. Running pans deeper and slower boiling (or reheating finished syrup) tends to produce darker syrup. Longer sap or concentrate storage produces darker and stronger syrup due to more microbial growth causing higher invert sugar levels in the sap.

Technically, maple flavor (and vanilla tones) is highest in light syrup. Darker syrups have a more complex mixture of strong flavors, but these are not true “maple” flavor, but most people tend to (incorrectly ) associate strong flavor as more “maply” flavor.

A pet peeve of mine is when people say that syrup that is light isn’t good because it doesn’t have that true “smoky” maple flavor. Maple should NOT taste smoky - if it does, it is an off-flavor.

[4Walls]

Dr. Tim. Quick question on the same subject. Lots of the old timers here in my area swear that "rock" maple tastes better than "flat" or wet maple. I assume they mean the maples on the shield rock as opposed to flat ground maple groves. Would that have to do with the minerals in the sap drawn up from the rocky outcrops? Or is it just old time folk lore.

[DrTimPerkins]

Would that have to do with the minerals in the sap drawn up from the rocky outcrops? Or is it just old time folk lore.

Quick answer - maybe?

[Mike Van]

I always understood rock maple to refer to how hard the wood was, compared to red maple, or Norways -

[canaanmaple]

Dr. Tim. Quick question on the same subject. Lots of the old timers here in my area swear that "rock" maple tastes better than "flat" or wet maple. I assume they mean the maples on the shield rock as opposed to flat ground maple groves. Would that have to do with the minerals in the sap drawn up from the rocky outcrops? Or is it just old time folk lore.

"Rock maple" is slang for sugar maple. "Wet/swamp maple" is slang for red maples. I know people say there is a taste difference. I never let sap sit long enough to get the dark stuff during most of the season, mostly because I can't do to capacity of what I can process, and only get dark way end of season when the bacteria starts to get going faster when its 50-60 and sunny, like on the very last run or so.

[Darrel Wright]

All the factors listed here that go to make maple darker or have "off" flavors are also things that would be associated with more traditional collection and processing methods and broadly speaking are what most of the people buying maple syrup are actually after. It seems a little odd that so much energy goes into producing maple syrup "the right way" when (speaking from experience of feedback on our syrup) the "wrong way" leads to a product more people seem to prefer.
We've gone back to a lazy and laid back batch boiling for this reason. Well also because we're lazy and laid back.

[Brian]

I guess that is a matter of opinion. My family has been making maple syrup for genarations and we're proud to make Vt fancy maple syrup. It is quality control, Just like in the barn, quality means more money and better quality of a product. Like my dad always says "You Get Out What You Put In".

[DrTimPerkins]

Historically, making lighter syrup was the mark of a superior producer and was regarded as a sign of quality operation. In addition, light syrup up until about 10-15 yrs ago commanded a higher price in the bulk marketplace. It is still sought after by packers who need light syrup to blend with dark syrup to arrive at something in-between.

Having given out many thousands of samples at taste testings over the years at the Chittenden Co. Maple Sugar Makers Education Booth at the Champlain Valley Fair, there is about an equal number of people who like dark syrup and those who like light syrup. It all comes down to personal preference. Very frequently we get people who come in and ask just for "Fancy" (Golden) or who ask just for "Grade B" (Very Dark/Strong) syrup. Most who don't know maple flavor well tend to end up in the middle somewhere, either Amber/Rich or Dark/Robust. There has certainly been an increasing trend for a higher percentage of consumers to lean towards darker syrups, but a lot of that is dictated by the fact that dark syrup is typically more common on the shelves in the marketplace.

It's very similar to how you like your salsa...mild, medium, hot...personal preference, which is largely what you are used to having. If you make dark syrup, you'll probably like the taste of dark syrup. If you mostly make light syrup, you'll probably prefer something on the lighter side.

Personally I like a nice Amber/Rich on my pancakes, but a Dark/Robust in foods. I find too many Very Dark/Strong syrups that have hints of off-flavors, so I tend to steer clear of them. However my all-time favorite is maple cream...especially if it is really smooth....on toast.

Fortunately in maple we make a range of flavors to suit most every consumer out there. We just need to educate them that the "best" syrup is the syrup THEY like the best.

[tcross]

i understand the quality control part... as far as making "fancy" syrup. Buti feel like the color/grade of your syrup is vary much dependent on the site of your sugar bush and the trees themselves. i keep everything in my operation as clean as possible. every thing is washed thoroughly after each boil and sap is boiled most often the same day it runs or the morning after. i don't make a lot of fancy syrup. most my syrup is amber rich and dark robust... usually a fairly even split. i have a little bit more soft maples than i do sugar maples. most of my soft maples are in fairly wet areas and sugars on the higher parts of my bush.

[Wannabe]

It seems a little odd that so much energy goes into producing maple syrup "the right way" when (speaking from experience of feedback on our syrup) the "wrong way" leads to a product more people seem to prefer.
We've gone back to a lazy and laid back batch boiling for this reason. Well also because we're lazy and laid back.

The/your consumer is always right. Smart move to go back to what they want.

Lots of people get defensive/upset when they hear that most people prefer non RO'd syrup cooked on flat pans.

[Seasoned Mini Maple]

I wonder about terroir relating to syrup in the same way it relates to wine. Terroir is the effect of the environment of the maple bush, mostly the soil, and to a lesser extent the local weather. Wine growers feel that the soil and local climate make for the taste of a particular vineyard. There is a difference between commercial maple operations and backyarder ones. Commerical operations have a large sugar bush, hundreds or thousands of acres, especially if the sap is bought from other producers. Thus commercial bushes average the terroir in proportion to the size of the bush or bushes. Backyarders have a more localized bush, sometimes a very small area of trees. The backyarder then has a more particular soil type and mini-climate which might produce a more particular taste. My guess is these tastes are subtle, but in my extensive tasting, commercial syrups have less pronounced, more average taste.

My own syrup this year has a unique "buttery" flavor and mouth feel. Of course, I like it! I have twenty taps on one small hillside, 3/16" tubing, no vacuum, no RO, and boil in two pans on a barrel stove evaporator, finish on my kitchen stove.

[Bucket Head]

I'm sure they meant no harm and didn't mean it to sound that way, and I'll give them a pass on this one because they are good guy's and know a thing or three about syrup making, lol. But I'll admit I was a little offended for a minute by Dr. Tim and Brian with equating light syrup coming from a superior producer with a clean and quality operation. Again, that sounded a little rough to those of us who make very little light syrup but run a pretty tight ship otherwise.

Cleanliness is paramount. Period. We are making a food product regardless of whatever grade you end up with. However, I'm with Tcross on this. I have made gallons and gallons and gallons of the lightest amber syrup here, but never any light stuff. There is no dirty equipment here and even the first run of each season is never light. Dam close, but the grader tells the story. I attribute my lack of light syrup to my trees and soil makeup around here. Those are the only two things that have not changed in my decades of syrup making.

So, don't anyone get too bummed out about no light syrup. Sometimes it just goes that way.

Steve

[On the ledge]

The trees give you what trees give you !

[DrTimPerkins]

... I was a little offended for a minute by Dr. Tim and Brian with equating light syrup coming from a superior producer with a clean and quality operation. Again, that sounded a little rough to those of us who make very little light syrup but run a pretty tight ship otherwise.

Steve...that was not my intention and if you re-read what I wrote, I said that light syrup was "historically" thought to be higher quality. I think there is a lot less of that sentiment these days.

There are a lot of factors that go into the color and flavor of syrup and it is certainly a very complex thing. The biggest things are sap quality (so storage temperature and conditions before being boiled) and evaporator configuration and operation.

We've had evaporators at UVM PMRC that despite any action we took, we simply could not make light syrup. Once we changed evaporators, our syrup immediately was lighter. Some things can't easily be explained.

In any case, dark syrup or light syrup -- all are good as long as they are proper density, free of sediment/turbidity, and have no off-flavors.

My one pet peeve about some descriptions of darker syrup is when people say they like the "smokey" flavor. Smoke is not a natural flavor in maple syrup -- it is an off-flavor. Some people may get used to it and like it (which is normal if that is what you are used to having), but it technically is an off-flavor that should not be present.

[christopherh]

[QUOTE=DrTimPerkins;415167]

We've had evaporators at UVM PMRC that despite any action we took, we simply could not make light syrup. Once we changed evaporators, our syrup immediately was lighter. Some things can't easily be explained.

I’ve always wondered which is actually better. A longer flue pan and shorter syrup pan or vise versa? All the manufacturers give us alot of options these days.

[Bucket Head]

Dr. Tim,

No worries, we are good. I knew it wasn't a disparagement. I really wasn't ready to call the site owner, a team of attorneys, the news networks and my congressmen to register a complaint. Nobody listens to me anyway...

Seriously, in all my years doing this, I never have made any true light syrup. At first, I was thinking, "What the heck?". But I stopped losing sleep over it many years ago and got over it!

Steve

[4Walls]

This whole thing has got me thinking about a little experiment. I want to try to make white, no cook maple syrup. The plan is to run a small amount through the RO up to about 50% sugar. Maybe have a few litres concentrated to that point. Then load that into the freeze dryer to reduce it down to syrup or sugar state. I am curious how much change in colour and taste come through without cooking. Will update once experiment complete.

[Galena]

This whole thing has got me thinking about a little experiment. I want to try to make white, no cook maple syrup. The plan is to run a small amount through the RO up to about 50% sugar. Maybe have a few litres concentrated to that point. Then load that into the freeze dryer to reduce it down to syrup or sugar state. I am curious how much change in colour and taste come through without cooking. Will update once experiment complete.

Sounds interesting!

[Bucket Head]

Give it a try. But there won't be much color or flavor to it. It will be sweet. But without the heat, there will be no Maillard reaction taking place. Putting heat to a sugar molecule basically ruins it, but the byproduct is the brown color and flavor. So it's a nice trade off, lol.

Steve

[ecolbeck]

I’ve always wondered which is actually better. A longer flue pan and shorter syrup pan or vise versa? All the manufacturers give us alot of options these days.

My understanding, from what I've read on these forums, is that evaporator configurations are designed to go with the anticipated strength of concentrate you intend to use with it. The stronger the concentrate, the greater the ratio of syrup to flue pan. Sap of higher concentrations needs more time in the pan to develop flavor, so a larger syrup pan is needed along with other adjustments such as greater sap depth.

[maple flats]

Steve, I'm with you, while I have made light syrup, by far most has been amber or dark. I consider that good, when I made golden, I packed it in my best glass and it didn't sell. Was it the syrup color or the added cost of glass, I'll never know. However I ended up blending it to get Amber or Dark and it sold. The last time I ever had a request for Golden (actually when it was called light amber was my first year ever hosting a maple weekend, back about 2008 or so.
I now sell only Amber and Dark, if any very dark is made, it becomes bourbon barrel aged maple syrup, more often dark is used because I rarely end up with very dark syrup.
From now on my syrup will only be made from taps on my own property around the sugarhouse, in the past I had 2 leases about 5 and 7 miles away. They took so much of my effort that I didn't even tap my own trees. That was mostly because those 2 leases were in the 600-750 taps size bushes and both had vacuum. My trees at that time would have had no vacuum, I sinply didn't invest in vacuum because at that time I only had about 180 taps worth of sugar maples. Then as I lost my help as they graduated college I sold the leases and added vacuum in my own woods around the sugarhouse, initially only sugar maples but once they maxed out at about 225, I gradually added reds and only a very few silvers and I got up to about 375 I think the last year before I sold the 3x8 evaporator. Now I've ordered a 2x6 and will be converting it to oil fired, my bush has now grown enough that if I tap the max, I'll be at or near 425, about 250 sugars, 5 or 6 silvers and the rest reds.