wood versus oil fired

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

O.K, I don't know a lot about evaporators and never will, so I have a question about wood versus oil fired. I was thinking of going to a forced air arch with an insulated front next year, but mapleman has got me thinking about oil.

What are the pros and cons of each? Will oil fired burn as fast as a forced air tight arch?? Can you go with a higher output nozzle to increase evap rate??

Also, I have a 275 gallon oil tank in place which holds diesel fuel for the tractor. I was told that the oil burners burn the exact same stuff, but not for sure??

Sorry for all the questions and thanks in advance for all the help! :D

[jmattice]

Brandon,
To me oil is great! Fast startup, fast shutdown. I'm not too familiar with airtight wood arches but I would think a properly installed oil setup will out do any wood setup, as it is so constant. As far as nozzles go I guess the bigger the nozzle, the more evaporation--within the limitations of the burner. On my setup, though it came with a 6 gallon/hr nozzle but it works great with a 4 gallon nozzle. The pump pressure is higher than the average home oil burner-150 psi I think. with this on a good day I'm doing 80 gallons an hour!!
The only drawback as far as I'm concerned is that it gets cold in the sugarhouse boiling with oil. Hope this helps some!
John

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

John,

Thanks for the info and I look forward to hearing more from others.

What size evaporator do you have??

[Jay]

I am new, but i would think that if you had the wood resource it would would be cheaper then oil, especialy with the price of gas and oil these days and it sure dont look like its going to get any better soon. Does anybody who uses oil ever have a gel problem or do you guys just order the BLEND? Mattice, most of my family lives up that way, Cornwallville, which is part of East Durham, My family settled in Sutton Hollow in the late 1800's, small world, LoL

[WF MASON]

I visted with a friend the other day in Limerick , ME. , he runs a 4'x14' wood fired , that he converted to oil 5-6 years ago. He said it costs him $1.00 of oil per gallon of syrup made. He's made 400+, gallons so far. His huge wood shed on the back, he made into a kitchen with picnic tables and picture windows, and sells ,all you can eat, pan cakes and bacon , and of course syrup. That more then pays for the oil. The mess of wood is gone , bark , dirt , ect. The oil is constent ,and makes very good syrup. I've never heard of anyone saying , ''God , I miss putting up that 10 cord this year''.

[mapleman3]

Amen to that!!!!

[ontario guy]

furnace oil (#2) and #1 colored diesel are essentially the same but diesel is cleaner. Both will work.

My brother in law drives an oil truck.

Mark

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

That was my next question: Do oil burners burn diesel fuel?? I think they do and I guess the question has already been answered, but I need to know for certain because I already have a 275 gallon tank in place and it holds diesel fuel for the tractor.

[mapleman3]

Brandon , Yes they will, I had to run my mother in laws house for a couple weeks on deisel, due to changing some tanks over, so I would just go to the corner station and fill up 5 gal gas cans. worked great, it is cleaner too, BUT if you were to buy it , it's usually more $$ due to the highway taxes imposed on it, thats why the home heating or "off road diesel" is dyed red... if your buying farm diesel(off road).. it's most likely the same thing as house oil.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

I was going to buy the off road diesel because it is a lot cheaper. I was told it is the exact same thing as the on road diesel, just don't have the red dye in it to show that it has been taxed??

[syrupmaker]

From what we have been told from our fuel supplier is that the road diesle has less sulphur than the off road.Less sulphur equates to less pollution in the atmosphere. :P The one problem that we have at the farm is that sulphur is a lubricant used in the injector pumps of the engine.Less sulphur for lubeing means more worn parts. :( With the road trucks we have to rebuild worn injection pumps. :cry: But the tractors useing the off road with the sulphur we do not. :wink: Go figure the goverment helping the the rebuild industry so they can tax them also. :? But sulphur or not it wont effect an oil burner.Basically use the off road or fuel oil for better price.

Rick

[mapleman3]

not to worry on oil burners though... best to use the off road or heating oil cost wise anyway!!!

[jmattice]

Brandon,
I have a 3x8 raised flue. I love it!!
Jay,
Its a small world for sure!Cornwallville is only about 15 min. from my house!
John

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

I am going to start out with a Carlin 102 and a 4 gallon nozzle. My evaporator calls for a 3.5, but Brad at Leader thinks a 4 would be good and maybe a 4.5 down the road if I want to try it. I don't won't to overfire it which can happen with oil burners I am told.

I am going to get a couple of 4 gph and a couple of 4.5 gph to have. They suggested changing the burner 1 each year before the season starts.

[mapleman3]

I hope you mean change the nozzels each year :wink:

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

I meant nozzle, not burner. I guess Carlin makes the best burner now because that seems to be what ever company now sells.

I hope to get at least 20 years out of my burner, but I did buy the 102 model, so it is only $ 450 because I don't think I will ever need to go past 4.5 gph on my size evaporator and that size doesn't cost a ton to replace. :D

[mapleman3]

you already bought it??? Man you don't mess around huh :wink: :lol:
did you order the arch plate too ?

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Sorry, no I meant if I did buy one. I am not going to get in a hurry, just weighing my options. Leader is supposed to make me an arch front for the oil burner for around $ 200 if I decide to go oil Maybe too much, but with that nice of an evaporator, I want to try to keep it looking nice! :D :D

[mapleman3]

whew... I thought maybe you were jumping in head first... test the waters first, you may be able to get a deal on a burner and/or find someone that is real good with metal, and make thedoor purty too. I want mine to be able to mount on the existing hinge pins so if I need to I can open it and clean the flues if necessary. how often during the seasone(if your burner is running good) do you have to clean the flues when burning oil

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Will your burner mount low enough on your evaporator if you mount it where the door hinges??

Also, will it be airtight?? I have a huge firing door, so if I could make it where the oil burner would mount on it or a fabricated door where the oil burner would swing out, it would be good. Leader says the oil burner needs to mount a lot lower in the arch than that to get proper combustion??

[ebourassa]

The maple guy that I buy all my supplies from has two evaporaters side by side 3X8. One is oil fired and the other is wood fired with a airtight arch and a steam away, he said with the wood fired one in full force force will out boil the oil rig, The other day i was there and they were running the oil rig and man was it cold in there. Just thought I would let you know. He has a pretty neat setup.

[mapleman3]

That I dunno ;) but hopefully Algier will have their recomondations mailed to me soon, I'd like to take a look at some oil fired rigs that are my size to get a feel for what others have done. I won't do anything till summer anyway.. still will have those sugar sand laden pans to deal with 8O

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Yes, but he has a steam away on the wood fired which gives him another 60 to 75 percent in evaporation rate on the wood fired. A steam away for that size unit costs around four grand!

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Do you have to clean the flues any during the season if you are burning oil?? Seems like it would be awfully difficult with the arch completely sealed off with ceramic blanket for insulation??

[imclean]

I have a 3x8 oil fired and I have never needed to take it off and clean it during the season. In the spring I take it apart and pressure wash it. Your flame should be adjusted so the is very little soot. you want a nice clean flame. With your oil presure up around 150 PSI you would be burning arouod 6 gallons per hour. They turn the pressure up to make the oil drops smaller. In doing that it becomes more effecent and cleaner burning. If you have a raised flue you want the bottom of your pan almost touching the blanket so the heat gets forced up into the flues. On drop flue you want about 2". Number 2 Oil or diesal it doesn't matter. But you want a winter mix for the colder weather or it could gel up. 50/50 of heating oil and Kerosen is the best. All ways keep a spare Nozel in suger hose incase it pluges in hte middle of a good run.

[mapleman3]

Great Advice.... Great Forum!!! :lol: :lol:

[themapleking]

Here's a trick I do. For my wood fired rig.
Buy some soot cleaners ( kwik-shot ) they're about the size of a stick on TNT. Through in one or two with the hot fire going and they clean all the black crap off the bottom of the front pan and the flues. Works great.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Joe,

Where do you get the soot cleaners, how much are they, and how often do you use them??

Do you also clean your flues too or just use the soot cleaners every time you boil??

Sorry for all the questions, I like to learn as much as I can! :D :D :D :D

[ebourassa]

I buy it at home depot and I have also seen it at lowes. Some hardware shops carry them too. Hope this helps.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Does anyone know where you can get a waste oil burner like the Carlin burners? I would like to put one of those on my evaporator if I could find one. I have found some leads, but have not been able to follow up on them.

[mapleman3]

Be carefull, I hear they are alot of work to get tweeked, and lots of gadgets to clean the oil...filters etc. this is just what I have heard. I think for syrup you would want a steady fuel source and not want to have any worry's

[syrupmaker]

Brandon.... Are you thinkin of fireing with waste oil? Not sure if you would want to fire with waste oil or not.Most of the ones i have seen require air to assist in the vaporizeing of the oil.The other down fall is that they constantly need the waste ash from the impurities that are in the oil that just won't burn up completely. It's usually a white powdery ash that clings to every nook and cranny it can find. I'd be interested in others oppinions on this,especially if there is anybody out there using waste oil to boil. That idea has crossed my mind :idea: do to the unlimeted supply between work and the farm that is availableto me.

Rick

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

I found a large company that carries them about a mile from me and I may stop by and look at them. They run about two grand, but they have used ones that are fully serviced quite often for less than half of that. They also require a pump system that runs about $ 400.00.

They are made by Shenandoah which is a large company and they have sold hundreds of them and don't seem to have any problem. They say they have a preheater built in them to heat the oil and an air pump to mix air with them for combustion.

According to them, they don't have any problems with them and they are designed like a Carlin burner. They will burn anything from stanard oil/diesel fuel up to 50 weight oil. Anything heavier than that, you have to thin it will a little diesel oil.

I am waiting to hear others opinions to see what you think. Might be a worthwhile investment if you could get a good used one. The gent I talked to stated the burners burn a higher btu than a stanard burner with the same nozzle.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Well, here goes. I guess I have some really good info on waste oil burners. I have a dealer less than a mile from where I live and since work has been slow, I had some extra time and stop by there today. They showed me all the features of one and how it works and I was blown away/completely impressed.

They require a pump to set on the tank and it pumps the fuel to the burner. The burner then preheats the fuel/waste oil and keeps it at 140 to 160 degrees. The nozzle has 4 small air chambers on it and air is mixed with the oil for maximum combustion. According to them, adjustment is very simple and once they show you how to adjust it, anyone can do it. The pump has a stainless filter on it that can just be washed in a parts washer or diesel oil and there is a pressure gauge on the pump to indicate when the filter needs cleaned. Usually after several hundred hours use.

They heat aproximately 3,000 to 4,000 square foot building with their burner and it is a small burner and after burning it all winter long, there was very little ash or debris inside and it was all at the bottom of the combustion chamber. They turned it on to show me how it works and allowed me to watch it work and I was impressed as it is very, very quite and the flames contained no smoke at all. The nozzles are like a regular nozzle, but they do have four air chambers on them, so they run $ 28.00. They will completely service and and replace the nozzle for $ 199.00 every year. Since I would only be burning mine about 10% of what is normal each year, I would probably only get mine serviced every few years.

They look just like a regular burner, but are definitely more complicated system. Too operate, they are no more complicated, so I may take the plunge possible and get one. The only drawback is the initial investment. They usually carry fully serviced used ones in stock for around $ 1,000 or less and used pump systems for a couple hundred versus $ 2,000 for a new one. It is quite an initial investment, but figure in the price of fuel. If you could get it for a $ 1.00 @ gallon which you can't now and it is getting higher by the day, then it will pay for itself in 3 or 4 years or less.

Another drawback would be is the maximum output is 500,000 btu's or about 3.8 gallons per hour is the largest nozzle available on a single burner. It would definitely be enough for a 2x8 evaporator since the manufacture recommends a 3.5 gph nozzle and it should work pretty good on a 2.5 x8 or even possible a 3x8 since the flame is completely adjustable.

I am going to talk to Leader and others to get more input and I would like to hear what others have to say. They will burn up to 50 weight oil of any kind including transmission fluid and anything heavier than that can be thinned with a little diesel oil. They will also burn diesel oil and heating oil pure, so that is also an option.

[Breezy Lane Sugarworks]

I'm not sure about your state, but here in VT, it is illegal to burn waste oil.

[syrupmaker]

Ryan....Is it illeagle to use waste oil for making syrup or illeagle in general to burn even in a waste oil furnace?

Rick

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

It is illegal to burn waste oil anywhere on an open fire, but I think it is legal to burn waste oil in epa approved furnaces/burners/boilers anywhere. May be wrong, but I think it is legal even in most large cities.

[Brian]

I worked for a chevy dealership and used the oil from oil changes (wast oil) to heat the building,and still are! Barre ,VT

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

I only buy Honda vehicles and the dealership down here that I have a great relationship with also heats their building with a waste oil heater and loves it.

[Seibold's Sugarhouse]

Brandon,
What ever happened with the waste oil burner? I was looking into oil as an option for my new evaporator. It doesn't seem like you got a definte answer on the pros and cons of oil. I read alot of pros but I did'nt see to many cons besides a cold sugarhouse and the cost of oil. I don't have access to large amounts of wood or time to process it. It seems like a good idea, if I can get a oil fired rig I might be able to sit back a little more and just smell the sweet maple steam :!: But I'm not sure about the costs, Is there a ratio to how much oil you would use to syrup made. I think your on to something with the waste oil idea. I could get as much as I want for free from work. But that intial investment would be tough to handle. Were you able to get a used one?
Thanks for all your posts, they are very helpful,

Jason

[brookledge]

Jason,
On the average plan on 3 gallons of oil to make 1 gal of syrup. Depending on the sugar content and your efficiency you could get more or less. With oil prices up probably $ 5.00 of oil to 1 gallon of syrup

[mapleman3]

Jason, I'm making the oil plunge, getting things setup , I have the burner tank etc, just have to do the conversion of the arch, I will post my findings of how much different I boil this coming season... hopefully I will make more syrup with the oil.. much more consistant fire. we shall see, and yes I too was told to run 3 gph in my arch(2x6) which should give me a gallon of syrup an hour, now lets hope after this election, no matter who gets in, they get the oil prices to come down.

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[yooper]

Don't plan on the price of oil coming down, it's only going to go up.
Check out http://www.peakoil.net/

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

They say that it will hit 3 bucks a gallon down here by spring for gas and they seem certain. One thing is for sure, we definitely need to invest in other technologies to power our autos. :idea: :idea: duh! :lol:

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Jason,

I think the waste oil burner would be a tremendous idea. You can get rebuilt ones for about 1/2 the price of a new one and they come with a warranty. The only negative I have with the waste oil burner is you need then in an area where you can keep it the same temperature and thus keep the oil the same temp or within a few degrees. Otherwise, you have to adjust the nozzle each boil. I watched one in action at the dealer and it heated a very large building and after it had burned all winter, there was maybe a 1/2 of small handlefull of debris such as metal shavings inside the chamber and most of it was so small, you could hardly see it. The ceramic blanket looked almost like new and they had been using it for at least 2 or 3 years or longer and the ceramic blanket was very white.

The building I use to make syrup in isn't heated, so I wouldn't have any way to control the oil temp. All I would have had to do is make a very small room around a square oil tank and put a small oil filled radiator heater inside with a thermostat to keep it a constant temp. I love cutting and splitting wood and I have access to all the free wood I want, so that is the main reason I stayed with wood. Besides, I just got a new Stihl .310 chainsaw aprox 20 months ago and wood is free. I could have gotten all the waste oil I wanted for free also and it would have been a great project. I wish someone would invest in one because I don't think they would ever regret it. :D

[Seibold's Sugarhouse]

Do you have to keep regular fuel oil at a constant temp as well. If so, its back to wood for me :?: :!:

Jason

[mapleman3]

no the fuel oil shouldn't be a problem, if it does stay real cold you can ask the oil co to deliver winter mix, it has a bit of kerosene in it, also there is a product called 4 in 1 hot... it helps keep oil from gelling and breaks up the sludge, you can get it at a plumbing and heating supply or from your oil Co.

[mapleman3]

Oh one more thing, I think it's better to run a 2 pipe system, for the oil frrd, and a return back to the tank, it helps eliminate some problems.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Anyone with any suggestions on how to cut out a hole in the back of the evaporator to mount my blower on. I have some ideas, but I figured there were be better ideas on here?? :?:

[forester1]

I would say one disadvantage of wood over oil is that tall stack, at least in larger evaporators. Mine is 26 feet tall with the stack cap, 18" in diameter. I managed to get it up myself with no help but it was probably the most difficult, dangerous thing I ever did. I built a crane with a boat winch to haul up the sections. The first crane collapsed with the top 10' piece but luckily missed me and didn't do any damage. Putting up a 16 foot crane on a metal roof and wrestling the sections into place is not fun so I hope this stack don't rust out soon.

[mapleman3]

I can understand that, the need for draft on a big rig must be wicked!! as for oil as long as it clears your shack coupla, I don't think it needs to be too tall!

[Seibold's Sugarhouse]

Mapleman,
Can you go into more detail about the two pipe system? I don't quite know what you mean. I also would like to know if the oil company will just deliver oil any where. I don't use oil to heat my house (geothermal heat pump) and therefore have no experience with it or the suppliers. Will they deliver it to a 55 gallon drum??? Any info would be great.

Thanks,
Jason

[mapleman3]

Well a 2 pipe system involves a supply line(usually 3/8")from the filter off the oil tank, then that goes to the supply port on your oil burner pump. the second line of equal size goes from the "return" port of your burner pump back to the top of your tank. there are a few things you have to do to achive this, first there is a bypass plug(small allen head screw)that has to be put in the return port which allows it to become a 2 pipe system, and you need a special fitting for the top of the tank for the return line to go through. it sounds involved and it is if you know nothing about burners, but what the two pipe system does for you is the burner always has a flow through the pump, so you never have to bleed the line, and if the viscosity changes with the cold, the 2 pipe works better than the 1 pipe. also you can lift oil better with a 2 pipe and the right size pump on the burner.
as for the tank, most oil company's will only supply to an oil tank, but some small local guys may do you a favor, that you'll have to ask around for,
the best thing is to find a guy who does this stuff on the side(moonlighting) and see if you can get him to set you up. where abouts in CT is Milford? I'm 30 mins from Springfield towards Boston. if your close I could swing by sometime or you can come up and see how I'm doing mine.

[Seibold's Sugarhouse]

Jim,
I'm in New Milford, CT. Which is over on the western side of the state, North of Danbury. However, I will be taking a trip to Bascom's sometime later this year (November or December). I normally travel up I-91 to get there and therefore drive through Springfield. I do have a better understanding of the two pipe system now, but I'm sure looking at it in person would be helpful. I'll send you a message when I plan my trip.

Thanks for the help,
Jason

[mapleman3]

That would be great, I'll keep you posted on how my installation is going, I'd like to have the tank and burner setup within the next month then still need to insulate the arch. heck I still have to drop it off the 8" blocks that raised it off the floor for firing with wood.

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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