Shurflo Surging.

[vach50]

Second year using a Shurflo 4008 pump to provide vacuum for my four 3/16” lines supporting 100 taps. Everything works fine 90% of the time until the pump loses vacuum. Sap fills the inlet line to the pump and bubbles actually move from the pump inlet back into the sap filling the hose attached to the pump inlet. Sap flow from the pump outlet stops for a couple minutes, then starts again on it own. Last year I called Pentair four times trying everything they could think of before they sent me a new pump. This year same results with this new pump. I’m confident I have no air leaks. Anyone have ideas or similar issues? Thanks.

[DRoseum]

Uneven vacuum in the lines perhaps. I think most of us have seen this when flows may not be consistent across multiple lines - either because of number of taps, elevation drop, location of trees (woods vs open) etc.

One thing I am interested in trying, is adding very low crack pressure check valves on each line. That way small vacuum losses on one line will never affect the others and you won't get backflow at all.

https://www.freshwatersystems.com/products/john-guest-check-valve-1-4-0-3-psi-crack-pressure-white

0.3 psi is less than 1 ft of water head.

[Hkb82]

A recirculation line solved this issue for me a few years ago. Was having the same issues. It was caused from the air bubbles in the line. If to much at one time entered the manifold it would pause the flow for a short break and then eventually catch up. Would still hold -20 well doing this but not -25.
Once my pressure is built I hold -25 all day heavy flows or slow flows with the recirculation line. You only need a small flow to keep the pump wet at all times. If it’s really flowing you can just close it.

[SeanD]

Another factor is the slope of the line all the way to the pump. If you have even a slight sag or a significant change in slope, that can cause surging. Check out this very good resource Section 14.4 page 243.
https://bpb-us-e1.wpmucdn.com/blogs.cornell.edu/dist/7/5773/files/2021/04/Tubing-Notebook-6th-edition-with-bookmarks.pdf

[vach50]

A recirculation line solved this issue for me a few years ago. Was having the same issues. It was caused from the air bubbles in the line. If to much at one time entered the manifold it would pause the flow for a short break and then eventually catch up. Would still hold -20 well doing this but not -25.
Once my pressure is built I hold -25 all day heavy flows or slow flows with the recirculation line. You only need a small flow to keep the pump wet at all times. If it’s really flowing you can just close it.

Is it easy to adjust the recirculated flow or does it need constant adjustment? Does a simple ball valve work or do you need to fine tuning of a needle valve?

[vach50]

I don’t know much about 5/16” vacuum systems but I don’t think that issue of changing slope at pump suction applies to 3/16” lines?

[Hkb82]

Thanks for adding that link SeanD. Some very good info in that notebook.
My lines have been added to over the years and next year it’s time to redo them and change the configuration a bit. It works well but definitely has room for improvement and also eye appeal.

[Openwater]

Is it easy to adjust the recirculated flow or does it need constant adjustment? Does a simple ball valve work or do you need to fine tuning of a needle valve?
I have a mini stainless ball valve on a 5/16 recirc line (new this year) which doesn't require much adjustment. I usually keep it barely cracked open to pull the best vacuum when sap is flowing. Even when sap is flowing, I found that if I totally close the recirc valve, my vacuum drops slightly; possibly because I don't have many taps going into the pump. It seems each time I check the pump, battery and solar setup, it's usually pulling good vacuum over 25inHg, and the more I fiddle with it, it only drops the vacuum. So I generally leave the recirc valve barely cracked open, unless I'm totally draining the tank; then I close it so it doesn't suck air and lose my vacuum in the lines.

[Hkb82]

My original pump is fitted with a 1/2 pex water line and ball valve that enters the manifold ahead of the lines to the bush. It runs as Openwaters said pretty little adjustment once it’s running. I built a second one last year and tried a needle valve and 1/4 inch line. I had to run it pretty much wide open all the time and could usually only get -22. Switched it to ghe pex and ball valve this year and now it’s running like the other -25 unless I play with it.
The valves are open almost as little as possible most times. Your just trying to keep the pump wet and pulling consistent vacuum. If you get to much air into the pump it will loose vacuum a bit and your lines and system will also loose its equal vacuum Then the pump will have to build equal pressure throughout your lines and system again. If you can prevent this and no leaks you’ll hold -25 vacuum with your shurflo pump. just what I’ve found the past few seasons.

[craigwade2005]

I'll add another recommendation for a recirc line. If you use 3/16 tubing it is small enough that you almost don't even need a valve. I run my needle valve on my 5/16 lines about 1.5 turns open and it's perfect. You'll notice a significant difference.

[bmbmkr]

This was my 7th year with 12V diaphragm pumps. All shurflo 4008's now- started with everflo brand, but they just aren't as high quality or as good of a design. This surging, isn't a bad thing, it is usually the different rate of flow from the trees. I noticed it usually first thing when the trees thaw out and start running for the day, or the first day tapping. The replies about multiple lines are correct, but the perceived surging also comes from trees on one line not all producing the same amount of sap as they don't all start running at the exact same time. Each line, even with the same # of taps will have a different output due to each tree putting out more or less sap. I used to watch my pumps and think something was wrong. Aside from having leaks, or a bad diaphragm there's nothing wrong with it. The pump pulls and pulls and even though your gauge isn't consistent, you are applying vacuum to all of your taps. As far as recirculation goes, if your nearest tap is close or even uphill from your pump, the trees push up to 13PSI your diaphragms are goin to get wet pretty quick, and once wet, they will not dry out. The pump is more efficient with liquid than it is with air, but it is still much batter than gravity. With no leaks, and a properly functioning pump, you will absolutely get more sap from taps on a pump than with buckets or bags whether you see it "surging" or not.

[Hkb82]

All my lines and taps are above my pumps and some not very far away. I still found that on slow days or early and late in the day that the recirculation line kept me pulling a solid -25. Without it I’d get multiple lines having more air/gas then sap enter the manifold at the same time and get a bit of a stall. If that happens a lot I’d only hold around the -20 mark. Just the way my system seems to work but it sounds like a recirculation line would at least keep the original posters pump moving liquid. He stated it stopped pumping for a couple min and then if would start again. I’ve never had that unless it wasn’t getting sap. I think this is more his issue then the surging. Before I had the recirculation line I would get this but only loose my flow for a few seconds then it would start to pee out again. I also couldn’t get it to even -20 when that was happening. I also now can let my lines freeze up and my pump can still run without freezing till I shut it down. I find I don’t get the back pressure of sap going back into my lines when I do this. Or at least it minimizes it as much as possible.

[vach50]

Got caught up in the season quickly and didn’t have a chance to add my recirc line until today. Will be anxious to try it next year. Thanks everyone!

[82cabby]

I’m really thinking about building one of these set ups this season. Would someone be willing to post a link to a specific shurflo 4008 pump? There are several models that start with 4008 - … but then have different model numbers after the 4008. And the prices vary considerably.

Also, in Looking for a dc power supply, what kind of current draw are folks seeing or designing for with these pumps?

[DRoseum]

4008-101-A65 / E65 is the pump you want.

Max current they draw is 7.5 AMPS. You will want a 10 AMP 12 VDC power supply.