No permeate

[eustis22]

hello...I am starting this so as not to derail the other RO threads. I constructed the below RO system (see attached). New MES 400 GPD membranes that I flushed with tapwater run thru a carbon filter for a couple of hours (I do not have access to any permeate or well water). The first time I tried to push 35 gallons or so of 1.5% sap thru it, nothing came out of the permeate line and, after running a little while, my pump just up and started running intermittently with brief "burps". I shut it off a couple of times in the hopes that it had just overheated but it resumed that behavior. The RO just ended up moving sap from one tank to another. This is very frustrating as I have a lot of sap to boil and a limited wood supply. Any suggestions would be deeply appreciated.
http://mapletrader.com/community/attachment.php?attachmentid=23013&stc=1

[littleTapper]

Forum software must have made the photo really small so it's really hard to see any details. Do you have a needle valve on the concentrate line to restrict flow? What pressure does your gauge read when running?

[82cabby]

Little tapper’s question is the key.
Can you post close ups of the pump, the two RO canisters and the permeate and concentrate lines? Basically closeups of the left middle and right of your board? Not getting any permeate generally would indicate not enough pressure in the system. I would say that setup would run best at about 110psi.

[eustis22]

adding more fotos dunno if they will be big enough:

http://mapletrader.com/community/attachment.php?attachmentid=23018&stc=1

http://mapletrader.com/community/attachment.php?attachmentid=23019&stc=1

I was running it at about 110 PSI

[82cabby]

Much better pictures! This is a bit of a long shot but is there any chance you have the permeate and concentrate outputs on the RO housings reversed? It varies from manufacturer to manufacturer but on my 400gpd housings the permeate is the left hand one and the concentrate is the right hand. Also I notice you have two different housings, they may not be the same as each other, ie one might be left side permeate and the other right side.

Assuming the outputs are right:

My thought is: start with the first membrane. Connect the Output from the filter (#2 in your picture) to the input on the housing. Connect the line with the needle valve to the concentrate output and leave the permeate output open. Now you have a basic one membrane system. Run that at 80-110 psi and see if you get permeate. Repeat with the other membrane. You will waste a little sap but you should be able to narrow it down that way.

When you ran straight water through it you got output from both lines?

[DRoseum]

I agree with 82cabby -that is the most likely issue and first thing to check.

Also - check the flow direction on the blue filter housing. They do have a specific direction and if installed backwards may be causing the pressure rise prior to the membranes.

[Bricklayer]

I’m not too familiar with the smaller membrane housings. But they function the same. What I have seen is that every housing on this style and size can have the permeate and concentrate outlets on different sides. You should be able to
Look down the housing when then membrane is not in it and see what line the permeate line is. It will be the one that lines up with the part that sticks out of the membrane with a little oring on
It. Check both membranes as they may be different. I just looked at 2 on Amazon and they were opposite.


Also check that your U cup seal on your membrane is on correctly ? It should be on the input side of your membrane. So on the top. If installed incorrectly it would cause your sap to just flow by the membrane and out the bottom.

[BAP]

My thoughts would be to disconnect the second membrane housing and see if it works only going through the first one. If it does, then disconnect the first one and try the second one only. That way you can narrow down where your problem lies. As someone pointed out, make sure the pre filter is plumbed in the correct direction.

[eustis22]

When I flushed with water I did get output thru both ports. Pics of interior of housings below.

the arrow outlet is on the port I have marked as permeate. They seem to be both on the same side. Also enclosed is the membrane and the direction it's mounted in inside the housing. I will try this evening the run thru one housing at a time. Just wondering if my tapwater ruined the membranes, even thru the carbon filtered.

http://mapletrader.com/community/attachment.php?attachmentid=23038&stc=1

http://mapletrader.com/community/attachment.php?attachmentid=23039&stc=1

http://mapletrader.com/community/attachment.php?attachmentid=23040&stc=1

[Bricklayer]

If you ran clorinated city water through your membranes you may have damaged them.
Your permeate lines should line up with this output

23041

[DRoseum]

Thru a carbon block filter, city water should be fine. I've been doing it for years. 0 permeate flow thru them is whats odd here. If they were shot, you would be pushing concentrate thru to your permeate flow. Not getting 0 permeate flow altogether.

[eustis22]

Apologies...I misspoke myself.....the arrows below I have marked as concentrate outlets. The circular outlets are marked as permeate.

[82cabby]

Try one membrane at a time.
Set up the first membrane and housing. Do not connect any tubing to either outlet. When you fire up the pump sap will only come out of one outlet. Connect the tubing with the needle valve to that one. Don’t connect anything to the other. Run the pump again and dial the pressure up to the 110 psi range using the needle valve. If you get fluid out of the outlet with no tubing, your membrane is good and working and you’ve identified which fitting is which for sure. If not, it’s clogged.

Repeat with the other membrane and housing.

If they both work, plumb the concentrate out of the first membrane to the inlet of the second. Put the tubing with the needle valve on the concentrate out of the second. Don’t connect the permeate outs to anything. Run it again at 110 psi. If you get permeate from both, reconnect your permeate outs with the tee. Fire it up.

At some point doing this you won’t get permeate and then you will have isolated the problem.

[eustis22]

Ok, I tried the below test....

Membrane 1: At 110 PSI I did get a trickle out of the permeate port but it wasn't anywhere near 50:50 in terms of amounts...more like 95:5 concentrate to permeate

Membrane 2: I allowed the pressure (inadvertently) to get up to 150 PSI and got a decent flow of permeate.

This was an Aquatec 8800 pump and I am not sure it is rated to 150 PSI. What is the upside/downside to running it that high?

I am having trouble with my Corona pump cycling on and off (I will play with the pressure valve later today).

[82cabby]

What power supply are you using with the corona pump? What amperage is it capable of delivering? That might be the source of your intermittent problem.

Otherwise with membrane 1 it sounds like something is up with it. With 1.5% sap at 110 psi you should getting much better than 95 to 1. If that membrane was feeding membrane 2 that’s why you weren’t getting anything out of the system.

No, the aquatec probably isn’t able to handle 150 for long. I’m not sure the rest of the components in the system would either!

If membrane 2 can output permeate at 110psi maybe you should consider running with one for now.

[eustis22]

I'm not sure how to answer that question. I am using the transformer that was listed with the pump (and had to order separately). I run house power thru and extension cord out to my shack and plug into power strips in there. I have sent the vendor a message to ask for a new pump as I tried changing the pressure valve to no effect. If that doesn't work, I would appreciate suggestions for a bigger pump than my aquatec 8800.

Last night I managed to process about 30 gallons thru Membrane #2 at about 110-120 PSI in 3 hours or so. I had to interrupt in the process in order to get some un-processed sap for my preheater as the process was too slow to keep up. Before I stopped the concentrate was at 4.5% (from 1.5% base) and after it was at 2.5%...also took a little going to restart the concentrate/permeate trickles.

I will try Membrane #1 this evening to try to get thru the last 25 gallons in the tank.

I should have enough permeate to at least do a flush, possibly a soap. That should hold until next weekend where I have access to spring water to try to salvage these membranes. I am prepared to write them off as a Learning Experience.

I cannot thank the members who responded for helping me work thru this issue enough. You have been a godsend for a problem hat was really stressing me out.

[eustis22]

So Membrane #2 processed about 25 gallons, albeit at 150 PSI or thereabouts....is that because the outlet ports are 1/4" vs 3/8"?

I only have about 25 gallons of permeate so I will flush 12.5 gallons each thru the membranes today and then take them north for the soap/acid wash in hopes they are salvageable. I am fine with grabbing a new membrane for next season as I will not be cleaning new membranes with city tapwater any more.

[DRoseum]

I really doubt the city water thru a carbon filter damaged them. If so, you would be passing sugar into your permeate.

When you I did your initial flush, did you keep your valves wide open? Did your pressure stay fairly low? Did you get any permeate during that?

Flush needs to be done with valves open but you will still get permeate because the water is pretty pure already.

The 1/4 inch is probably ok. I use 3/8 between membranes but 1/4 for outlet.

Pump transformer for coronwater typ-8900 should be 10 amp minimum, probably better to be 15 A (24vdc). I have 3 of these pumps that I run for hours a day (2 for RO, 1 for pumping sap uphill) and habechad 0 issues in 3 years with them. Check power supply, and if you have a multi meter I'd check it during operation. Is it intermittent only when under pressure or when just running dry without any "load" on the pump?

If it's when you are trying to load it up, I suspect power supply is issue.

[82cabby]

Pump transformer for coronwater typ-8900 should be 10 amp minimum, probably better to be 15 A (24vdc). I have 3 of these pumps that I run for hours a day (2 for RO, 1 for pumping sap uphill) and habechad 0 issues in 3 years with them. Check power supply, and if you have a multi meter I'd check it during operation. Is it intermittent only when under pressure or when just running dry without any "load" on the pump?

If it's when you are trying to load it up, I suspect power supply is issue.

Yeah, that’s what I was thinking too. Eustis22, does the power supply you are using have any writing on it that indicates how many volts and amps it is supplying?

[eustis22]

Intermittent when under pressure. I click it on and blurp...........blurp.....blurp.....occasionally it will run for a bit.

Transformer #2: Input: 100-240V ~ 50/60 HZ 2.0 A, Output: 24V~2.7A

Transformer #1: Input: 200-240V ~ 50 HZ 2.0 A, Output: 24V~3.0A

These transformers were listed on the pump page.

When you I did your initial flush, did you keep your valves wide open? Did your pressure stay fairly low? Did you get any permeate during that?


Yes, yes, and yes.

[DRoseum]

The transformer is significantly undersized. You need 10A - 15A vs 2.7A or 3.0A. The number of Amps the pump draws increases under load (higher pressure). You need a much higher rated transformer.

Ive used this one with that pump with great success. Just put 2 wire nuts on the 2nd output that I wasn't using.

inShareplus 24V 400W LED Power Supply, IP67 Rainproof Waterproof Outdoor Driver,AC 90-140V to DC 24V Low Voltage Transformer, Adapter Converter for Outdoor Use https://a.co/d/c0M8fVo

[eustis22]

ok..I will give that a shot...strange the transformer is so under-watted.

[eustis22]

Grrr..this thing...so, I bought the recc'd transformer and it stopped the pump cycling issue. Worked great yesterday as I did my soap wash after re-engineering my RO board somewhat and putting both 1A and 1B two membranes in serial. Ran perfectly for about 2 hours.

BUT....when I went to do the rinse, the pump would not go on. I didn't have a multimeter up north to see where the issue might be but I will test next w/e. But this is very frustrating, the two steps back for every one forward. At the very least I suspect I will need new membranes with these two sitting in soap for a week, though if I can get the pump working again I might try an acid wash.

[DRoseum]

Check gfci or breaker just in case. Your membranes will probably be fine. Just flush them liberally to get PH back to neutral. Acid wash probably isn't required.

[eustis22]

Sadly, there is no GFCI switch on the outlet and none of the circuit breakers were thrown. I will use a multimeter next time I'm up there to see if I can find the issue.