old spiles for tubing systems

[Brent]

I was visiting a shop of a very experienced maple man a couple of weeks back and he told me that many people who switch to tube/vacuum systems are thrilled with the increased flow the first year, but see bit of a decline the second year.

He said a study was done in Ontario and they found that the microbes that plug up tap holes survive the whole summer IN THE PLASTIC SPILE and that when the spile is re-used the growth gets kick started resulting in lower / short runs the second and subsequent years.

So the local Mennonite maplers came up with a "half spile"
It gets put in the new tap hole when drilled and the old one that is still in the line gets plugged into it.

Supposedly this gives enough degrees of separation that the hole stays clear almost as long as putting in a new spile ( can cutting the old one off the line I suppose.)

Never used tubing yet so I don't know if any of this makes sense to you guys, but I thought I'd throw it out there for you to chew on.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

There are several designs already out there from several of the manufactures similar to this.

[jemsklein]

well i will check that out this year cuz its only my 2 year of tubing

[maplekid]

is this something like what you where talkin' about http://www.mapleguys.com/index.php?item=136&ret=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mapleguys.com%2Findex.php%3Fp age%3D1%26category%3D8

[maplwrks]

A lot of sugarmakers are using 2 piece spouts--they throw away the spout part every year. I've used these for 2 years now, I washed the spouts the first year, and I am replacing them this year. After this year, I will be replacing them every year. The theory behind it is that a new spout runs better than an old spout. The increased sap production pays for the new spout each year!

[Brent]

is this something like what you where talkin' about http://www.mapleguys.com/index.php?item=136&ret=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mapleguys.com%2Findex.php%3Fp age%3D1%26category%3D8

that looks like it would accomplish the same thing

The fellow that showed it to me was Dick O'Brien at Uncle Richards
Hers's a link. You'll have to call hiim. He does not have much on line yet.
http://www.unclerichardsmaplesyrup.com/
If I recall correctly some local Mennonites are making what he uses and he is selling
a number of their products. The same group make the new blue plastic 5/16 bucket spiles.

The same Mennonites make the light blue colored plastic buckets. Pretty enterprising bunch.

[markct]

is there a reason i couldnt remove my plastic spiles from my drop lines and boil them to sterilize them, i would think the plastic should take that kinda heat. isnt that basicly what they do with the stainless tubing spiles, i know the catalogs say there meant to be taken off the tube and sterilized, so why cant ya do the same thing with the plastic?

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

You could, but you would have to likely cut them out and then refit them back in and in the process you are leaving your tubing system wide open for bacteria and each time you cut out 1, you are shortening the dropline by aprox 1". If you are that concerned about doing it, I would recommend you put quick disconnects on each drop line.

[markct]

hmm so what if i take my tubing spiles out at the end of the season, boil them, then put them back on the tubing and plug them into that neat little cap made into the tee fitting, seems like then it would keep the system sealed except for the time it took to boil. or maybe i would be better to just take them outa the tree and plug them into the tee, then right before the tapping season take them off and boil then install into the tree and tube. just sorta tossing around ideas, im new to this and just doing it as a hobby so i realy appreciate all you guys input

[peacemaker]

my findings with quick connects is they leak

[MR Electrician]

ok heres a thought why not dip the ends in a hot watter and bleach solution then pack them up for the year.you could keep it in a thermos .just dip it and seal it up for the year
the bleach will be rendered neutral by the sunlight durring the summer .so there shouldnt be any after taste in the spring.

or bring a portable uv light 20 seconds of that will render most germs sterile so they wont re produce .

just a thought

[maplecrest]

if you want to add two weeks to your season, go with new every year. the adapters are great, the d and g are the best do not leak, the cdl lockers leak. i also used the cdl health spout extensions, those worked great no leaks. i tryed the leader ones and they leaked. or cut off and put on new spouts every year. they pay for themselves and make you more syrup. there is something to the ends of the spouts the grow bacteria from one season to the next.boiling ,bleach ect. does not work

[maplwrks]

I have tried to clean my adapters after the year is over, but found that the production dropped off on the second year of use. I will now change them every year----they only need to produce 1 more gallon of sap to pay for themselves. I have tried boiling them, chlorine, alcohol, ain't none of them worked! My only wish is that they could be recycled.

[Jim Brown]

Our turn on this is to us the 7/16 tap on the drop line and put on a 7/16 to 5/16 adaptor . we will take the adaptor off each spring put the 7/16tap on the stud of the tee(seal up the system) and take the adaptor to the sugar house and wash,sanitize,dry and store. In the spring drill a 5/16 hole carry a pocket full of adaptors and drive them in and put the 7/16 tap back on the adaptor. Like a new tap every year!
my two cents

Jim

[royalmaple]

I have an ad for 500-600 of these 7/16-5/16 adaptors in the classifieds make me an offer. They are one season old and in bags, all pretty clean from the get go and if you need more, mike said he's got about 1000 more to throw in. So let me know.

I'm not going to chance it and I am going to pay the money to get fresh plastic in the trees, might be a waste of money but that is something I am willing to risk.

Certainly anyone that doesn't care these are all very clean and certainly nothing wrong with them. Good way to reduce 7/16 you already have out in the field at a lower rate than new.

[maplecrest]

i have 5000 clean adapters used one season, fit over old large spouts ect. free you pay postage.

[ennismaple]

is there a reason i couldnt remove my plastic spiles from my drop lines and boil them to sterilize them?

We did basically that for the past 15 years and I wouldn't recommend it. You nick the tee every time you cut the dropline off so you get a lot of micro leaks. You also lose 1" off of every dropline per year. On the plus side, we would wash a couple hundred at a time in an old washing machine on agitate. When you take them out you run a spile brush through the end to get any gunk out and they're pretty darn clean! I'd recommend you go with the stubbies and extension instead.

[markcasper]

I must say that there needs tom be something used other than the old spile thats hanging in the woods. I have used the leader adaptors 2 years in a row and I disagree with throwing them out after one year. The dealers do an excellent job of touting their one time service. Its more $$$$ they can sell.

I wash mine in the wash machine with straight hot water with bleach, then let them sit on the stove for 3 hours and boil in a big pot, then carry them in the woods in a pail of alcohol. Last season brought some of the warmest strings of days that I have ever seen during a season. A few days were in the 80's prior to a huge freeze up days before easter. Everything had been tapped for weeks and after this warm period, I had copious amounts of sap in the 10th-14th of April timeframe.

I would not hesitate to switch on new ones ever year. The cost is miniscule, I'm just stating my results for those that think maybe thet can get another year or 2 out of them.

For me to do something different, I need to see data, not just an opinion of what works and what does not. I am just saying that I felt I had no yield reduction whether I used new ones or not.

I did buy some new ones for this year, but am not planning on using them unless I tap extremelt early.

[ennismaple]

I'm torn about them. The stubbies are the same cost as a 19/64 spile so the only incremental cost is the $0.17/tap for the adapter.

Let's say you had a 1000 tap operation (to make the math easy). If you replaced them every second year the cost would be $170 per 2 years or $85 per year. At $2.25/lb and 11.3lbs/gallon you'd only have to make $85/($2.25*11.3) = 3.33 gallons more syrup per year from that 1000 tap operation to pay for them. Say a good rule of thumb is one litre (quart) of syrup produced per tap. That equates to a [(1000+3.33*4)/1000 - 1.00] = 1.33% increase in sap production required to pay for it. {I hope my logic makes sense this late on a Friday night!}

Anyone got any hard evidence that says using new or bi-annual adapters increases your yield by more than 1.33%? We all know the equipment manufacturers make more money but do we?

[mountainvan]

I have not replaced spiles every year or the adaptors. But... before I got my ro I used bleach, 5%, to sterilize the spile and taphole. Got the ro, no more bleach, bad for the membranes. Sap yield dropped. Next year started using alcohol to sterilize, sap yield up! I use it every tap the first time and if/when I ream latter in the season. A bit cheaper than 3,000 adaptors or new spiles.

[royalmaple]

Has proctor done anything with this study?

I would say that even if you are into cleaning spiles you'd be way better off with the two part spiles since you can bring the reducers home, clean them bag them and take them back out in the woods with you when you tap. At least you are not leaving the taps in the woods all year long. That makes sense.

They also got you by the low wiskers once again. If you are in panic mode about tap holes and production etc, your already leading yourself into it. Little knudge and your jumping. How do you justify risking "loss of a season" or restricted performance if you don't change them. So gets you thinking...I don't want to miss a trick, so I better buy them I guess.

Take someone like Scott wheeler, lets say he's as honest and pure as the driven snow. He swears by the new adaptors and makes more syrup per tap than just about anyone, or is right there with the top of the top producers.

I'd like to save the money and clean my adaptors, the ones I have are very clean just from last year. So it's not like I would have to spend 100 hours cleaning them.

If you get one last big run in April or late March, then that could easily pay for the adaptors. Just one of those mysteries.

I'd like to see actual factual data to support it, not just someone's experience. Since they are not doing a side by side test with control testing too.

[maplecrest]

a new stainless steel spout is comming out, at 90 cents ea. [at this time] you can sterialize and use again. three years of plastic adapters including stubby will pay for one. i am thinking of trying a few of them in 09. dan crocker came up with this spout. tubeing slides over the barb on tube [spout] after set in tree. to wash pull tubing off and remove spout for cleaning, put hose on tee for summer

[PA mapler]

It seems like these extrensions would make the spile and tubing stick that much further out or the tree. With the skinny health-spouts, I notice the spout "bending" depending on how much tension is on the dropline. Is this a problem at all with the extension?

If you're worried about nicking the barbs on spouts when you cut of the stub of tubing, try boiling them first with the tubing on - the plastic will soften up enough that with pliers it's easy to pull it off.

Royalmaple - where did you find that picture of me!? :lol:

[markcasper]

I bought a refractometer several years ago from Dan Crocker. He had an add in "Farming" I believe and he is the reason that I started using the adaptors.
I originally started with the 7/16"/5/16ths reducers. I am still using these yet.

I am not one for opinions and such, but 3 and 4 years ago I had one hillside on reducers and the other on just straight slim spouts that were 5 years old. The group with the reducers ran wonderfully a good 10 days longer after the "old spout" ones had slowed down /quit. That was all I needed to see to convince me. I have all of this documented in my journal.

Like royal maple was saying.....proctor would do good to have a study done on this to get actual numbers to put down. I must say that if I were to tap early, I will use new ones and will have peace of mind that the adaptors will give me the extra days without risking a loss of production. They are pretty cheap insurance.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

In my opinion if you have that much tension on your drop line, something is not correct. It seems you are stretching them too much when you tap and that is not neccessary. Leave a little slack in them and it gives them some room to bounce in the event a small limb falls, ice storm, wet snow, etc. Also, drilling at a good upwards angle helps this too.

[Breezy Lane Sugarworks]

But also remember that drilling at too much of an angle starts to make the hole oval and not round, not allowing the spout to seal correct.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Good point Ryan!