There has to be a better option for a pump for a home built ro

[Cashcropin]

I currently have a two home built 2 post 4-40 ro systems that I use and think they are great for making syrup. But I also find that the 330 procon pumps hooked up to a 3/4 hp Dayton motor to be a vary fragile pump set up . As I have not made it through a season without pump problems . I checked my local maple suppler for the pumps on there ro system and they run a multi stage pump for a feed pump and a high pressure pump . I’ve searched online for a similar pump with no luck finding the exact pump they use . They pump seems to be made in India they brand is walrus model #TPH4T6KS-A is there an equivalent pump out there . This seems to b the biggest limiting factor to make a really awesome homemade reliable ro system

[Andy VT]

I have not gotten into the world of RO yet, but I've started looking into it by reading and watching all the info that RO Bucket has published, some other stuff on YouTube, and in here on mapletrader.
So, for the pump question, I can offer this info that I found.
On YouTube for a homemade RO, search "Build Your Own Maple Syrup Reverse Osmosis Rig" by "gardenfork".
He uses the following pump: Search on amazon for "Aqua Tec 8852-2J03-B423 Aquatec CDP 8800 Water Booster Pump + Transformer"

I have a sneaking suspicion this might be the same pump the RO Bucket uses, partly because it offers a low pressure shutoff as an option and the RO bucket now offers that feature as an option.

I have no experience with this pump; just thought I'd pass the info along!

(I think I'm going to end up with RO bucket because in the end I think it will be only slightly more money than piecing everything together myself and I appreciate all the work he's put into putting it together and all the free education offered! And theoretically, some support if I need it)

[DRoseum]

Aquatec diaphram pump is way too small for 2 post 4x40 RO. Even larger coronwater TYP-8900 diaphragm pump won't work.

[fred]

So, you found what works, but you won't go to the guy that helped you and buy from him and have something that won't break down? You're still searching for something cheaper but want it to hold up the same? got it!!

[Andy VT]

Aquatec diaphram pump is way too small for 2 post 4x40 RO. Even larger coronwater TYP-8900 diaphragm pump won't work.
Ah, right! Different scale! Never mind what I said for this situation!

[Cashcropin]

Thanks for your replies if you have not gotten into ro systems I would highly recommend getting ito a system either home built or from a suppler . I’m sure with some more research I’ll find a pump that will do what is needed . With my limited experience with ro I’ve come to the conclusion that for all the high dollar setups of the system it really seems to me it’s just a high pressure filter system that only allows water thru the filter “membranes “ so part of my maple experience is trying to make most of my equipment on my own not really trying to cut out suppliers just try to make it in a business with very slim margin so any help would b appreciated thanks

[DrTimPerkins]

With my limited experience with ro I’ve come to the conclusion that for all the high dollar setups of the system it really seems to me it’s just a high pressure filter system that only allows water thru the filter “membranes “...

That is basically correct. Most maple "RO" systems in use these days are actually nanofiltration devices. Originally maple systems were true RO membranes, but not so much these days. Functionally though...not a lot of difference...pressure pushes water of out through pores in a semi-permeable membrane (true RO) or through an nanofilter that is too fine to allow sugar to pass through. Nanofiltration can function at lower pressures, which reduces the cost of concentration systems.

[darkmachine]

I built a 2 post 4x40 system for last season. I got a deal on the 330gph procon, which was the first thing i got($90). This was a clamp on style, which is why i got it so cheap i assume. I ended up buying a 1hp single phase motor($300+shipping) and then I was able to get a bolt on adapter and coupler so i could use the procon.(kleenrite). I should have the headroom to go to a 660gph procon with the motor, and i can rewire to use on 220. I did add a shallow well pump that I scavenged before the procon because i was worried about damaging the procon. I have not had any issues at this point. I have heard that i shouldn't need the second pump, but i like the margin for safety.

[Cashcropin]

I agree that I really like the procon pumps when everything is going good they do a great job and save a ton of firewood and I truly believe the only reason a have problems with them is 99% operator error as we get into the thick of the season my prefilter will start to foul up without out me catching it and the pump will not last in those conditions . I’m just thinking someone out has to have information on the multi stage pumps used on the commercial units any information is appreciated thanks

[carls47807]

The vane pumps are going to be 1/4 the price of any multistage pump. You are also looking at 220v if you want a multistage set up. This is probably the number 1 reason I stick with the vane style.
The big weakness with vane pumps is they do not like restriction/suction. It isn't a bad idea to put a vacuum gauge somewhere on the suction side to monitor performance. Once you get a baseline it's easy to tell if something is starving the pump, and you can catch it before it becomes an issue. A well fed, quality vane pump should last many years.

[minehart gap]

I truly believe the only reason a have problems with them is 99% operator error as we get into the thick of the season my prefilter will start to foul up without out me catching it and the pump will not last in those conditions . I’m just thinking someone out has to have information on the multi stage pumps used on the commercial units any information is appreciated thanks
I think that I am missing something. Couldn't you install a low pressure shutoff after your filter. Then when your filter starts to clog, RO shuts off, and your pump doesn't burn up or if you go buy a pump from your maple supplier, still install a low pressure shutoff after your filter so that a more expensive pump doesn't burn up.

[darkmachine]

I tried that with well type pressure switches and was never able to keep it from bouncing on and off. In other words the low pressure pump builds pressure, the procon comes on and then the pressure falls and it cuts off. If I hold the first pressure switch open until the system pressure levels out it will run as intended but any little drop in pressure will set it bouncing on and off again. I think a different type of switch and maybe a little logic on a controller would fix it. That's the difference between a 800 dollar machine and a 3000 dollar machine.

[bmbmkr]

I bought a second hand Deer run single ppost, it had a 5hp gas motor with a piston pump. Second year I doubled taps and added another post and put a Procon 330 with a 1 1/2 HP 220V motor. Fed it with a SS Sprinkler pump from northern tool. I've been reading the RO threads here on the trader for 7 or 8 years. I think the 3/4hp and clamp on ProCon 330 is a weak design. I have had zero issues with the 56C bolt on pump adapter. I did gravel one of my Procons early on. I ran 1200 gal of sap through 2x, my filter plugged up and I fried the pump.(sounds like gravel running through them when the vanes give up) I'm running a 2.5x20 filter now with a 2 Hp Procon 660 4 post 4x40. McMaster Carr has the lovejoy shaft connectors, and the 56C motor/pump adapters cheaper than Kleen-rite. Edco Distributing has Procons cheaper then Kleen-rite also. Finding 1725-1800 rpm motors with the 56C face is the hardest part. The bolt on adapter add a little over head cost, but they are bullet proof. Stay away from the vevor motors, they are junk. They have a so called warranty, but you go down in the middle of the season, it'll take too long to get a replacement in. I have two Leeson motors that I got from an electrical surplus warehouse in TX and a Dayton motor for a back up that I got new from E bay.

[Cashcropin]

Bmbmkr thanks for your info on the procon setup I did not realize that the 56 frame hookup pump were a better design. It sounds like you have a pretty sweet setup on your ro now . With my pump problems in the past I’m really wanting to find out a little more on the multi stage pumps . I seems like any way you go the pumps get pretty spendy . But I feel like with all the mistakes I make a pump that can take a little abuse would b nice .

[maple flats]

Cashcroppin, you say you suspect your pre-filter plugs up and ruins your Procon pump. A question, do you have a pressure gauge and flow meters on your homemade RO? iIf yes, adjust the pressure as it climbs higher than design pressure by opening your restriction valve. Also, flush off or change the prefilter sooner.
Even on a manufactured RO the operator needs to keep an eye on such things. If you don't have both a high pressure gauge and flow meters, get some and add them. Your Procon failures will not be there when you keep track and adjust as needed.

[darkmachine]

Never had to replace my procon, but I have two filters and a low pressure switch between my feed pump and the procon that turns off the procon when it doesn't have pressure. The first filter in my system is a woven filter, fairly course, it eliminates debris from buckets and anything that has fallen in that may clog or damage the pumps, then after the feed pump i have the 5 micron before it gets to the procon, I haven't had any issues with this setup so far, if it helps you setting up so you can prolong the life of your pump, here is a video of my setup.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/Jhz3DyLRNUSqxeBf9

[bmbmkr]

Bmbmkr thanks for your info on the procon setup I did not realize that the 56 frame hookup pump were a better design. It sounds like you have a pretty sweet setup on your ro now . With my pump problems in the past I’m really wanting to find out a little more on the multi stage pumps . I seems like any way you go the pumps get pretty spendy . But I feel like with all the mistakes I make a pump that can take a little abuse would b nice .

You are welcome. I have done a bit of research on multi stage pumps as well. I'm probably goin to make that plunge in a year or two when I move up to an 8" vessel & membrane. A benefit of multi stage pumps is they heat the sap, which increases the concentration efficiency through the RO. Multi stage pumps have a steeper pump curve than vane pumps such as the procons. Then again, if I have read correctly, if you feed them at a higher pressure, they output a higher pressure. I'm still learning, been reading all I can on pumps, fluid dynamics and things such as cavitation for the last 6 years or so. My limiting factor is my budget lol. Good luck this coming season!

[Rselleck91]

You want a gb Gould series if you’re looking to go to a multi stage pump with aprox 700ft head pressure.
I personally run a procon stainless with feed pump and use a multistage pump as a recirc. Works stupid good and also noticed memprotech does the same setup.

I see a post on this thread oboist 220 being bad…… not at all! 220 is the way to go, way more efficient. All 3 of my pumps are dual voltage but are wired for 220 less amps being used which is what you get billed for.

Lastly about pressure switches….. they work just fine if you’re feed pump is sized right. My feed pump actually has the biggest hp motor out of the 3. You don’t want the bare min or something that falls in that category of you’re capacity, you want 4 or 5 times the gph capacity if you want to party…….. do that and your pressure switch will work fine.

[WMF]

Your bill from the electric supplier is for power, not amps. There is no free lunch and a motor will use the same amount of power regardless of being configured to run on high or low voltage.
The advantage of higher voltage/lower amps is smaller gauge wire can be used which is negligible for a little RO.

[carls47807]

I wasn't saying 220v was "bad", I was just saying it is not convenient for the majority of people I sell RO systems to (250 taps and less). They are usually working in a shack with no power or a 20 amp 110 line. The 3/4hp motors we use 23 less watts at 230v than at 110v. (1127 watts at 230v vs 1500 watts at 110v).

[Cashcropin]

I was talking with a local sugar maker that said a pressure washer style positive dispacment pump are used on some commercial ro set ups he was thinking they are a good option for a pump does anyone have any experience or knowledge about these setups ? Any help is appreciated thanks

[carls47807]

Pressure washer pumps are piston style pumps. A lot of them (all?) that are being used are not nsf, and even if they are nsf, they still do not meet the "zero lead" requirements for maple syrup (different from "lead free", which still contains lead). Unless the pump is all stainless steel, it will probably contain a small percentage of lead. Even the procon and fluid-o-tec nsf pumps that are brass contain a percentage of lead.

[bmbmkr]

You want a gb Gould series if you’re looking to go to a multi stage pump with aprox 700ft head pressure.
I personally run a procon stainless with feed pump and use a multistage pump as a recirc. Works stupid good and also noticed memprotech does the same setup.

I see a post on this thread oboist 220 being bad…… not at all! 220 is the way to go, way more efficient. All 3 of my pumps are dual voltage but are wired for 220 less amps being used which is what you get billed for.

Lastly about pressure switches….. they work just fine if you’re feed pump is sized right. My feed pump actually has the biggest hp motor out of the 3. You don’t want the bare min or something that falls in that category of you’re capacity, you want 4 or 5 times the gph capacity if you want to party…….. do that and your pressure switch will work fine.

Can you give us some details on your recirculation pump? I tried it last year when I upgraded my Procon 330 to a 660. I plumbed in the 330 as recirculation, fed it from concentrate output and pushed it into the 660 pump output right before the membranes. Even though I split the 4 4x40's into two banks of two, I was blowing a cap off at less than 100 PSI. For this season I took the recirculation pump off, and plumbed the recirculation loop back into the HP pump feed. I guess next year I'm just goin to move up to an 8x40. even still I'd like to get the most efficiency out of my machine, and I don't quite understand the recirculation pump aspect. I get the fact that it increases flow across the membranes, I'm just trying to wrap my head around how to size the pump and how to plumb it in.

[Rselleck91]

How many membranes are you running? Keep them in series, anymore than 3 you are better off with going to a 8040 membrane vessel and you really do not need a 600gph pump unless you have 2 8inch vessels.

Vane pumps are not good recirculating pumps. Have you ever had your water removal just slow down and you open your pressure valve for a minute and then close it again and you’re removing a higher amount at the same psi after closing it again? That’s membrane foul. That’s the sugar sticking to the membrane slowing down what it can pass through.

How do we fix it? Make that same sap in that closed system move like a mother trucker! Using a smaller pump then your high pressure pump will not achieve what you are looking for. If you’re feeding 330gph in then you want 3 to 4 times that. It doesn’t need to be a pressure pump it’s case rated pressure just has to be good for your operating pressure hence multistage booster.

These work awesome for wash cycles as they help bring your wash temp up to 110° with the friction of the turbines pretty good.

My newest build is a stainless procon 260 feeding 3 vessels with a Dayton stainless 3/4hp multistage pump.
I’m finding that less feed than what you have for membranes results in being able to keep your needle cracked less making a higher brix pass. At first you don’t reach your normal pressure but you will as your sugars start building up.

Result is I have a 5/16 line worth of concentrate and about a 3/8 line worth of water coming out. At 2% Raw sap I’m getting it out at about eight on the first pass, 12 on the second and seen as high 16 on the third.
Soon I’ll play with higher psi vessels and pumps for higher concentrations.