My plan 2022/23 [Archive] - MapleTrader.com

Swingpure

04-30-2022, 07:48 PM

Before I start off with my plan, I just want to say as I hand out my syrup to more neighbour’s, I keep getting compliments like it was the best syrup they have ever tasted, so I did something right in my first season. I have to admit I have not gone back and tested any of the syrup to see what Brix it is. (I did that at the time of finishing) I just know it looks like syrup, pours like syrup and tastes really good.

I have mentioned before that I am actually going to downsize my taps, not have any pails and just have lines and may add up to 10 more trees on the lines. Might have like 85 taps, including counting double taps. This is just a hobby.

I was just told two days ago that I am a Diabetic. No biggie yet, as I can control it with lifestyle changes, but eating my own Maple Syrup, other than a taste here or there, is not on the menu. I did enjoy making it and still want to make syrup for my kids, grandkids, family and close friends.

Biggest changes for this coming summer is to build a permanent shelter for my cinder block evaporator, and getting a 2x4 divided pan, perhaps with a float box. If I do not get a float box, I will get some stainless steel tubing to go around the stovepipe as a preheater. I guess with a float box there is no easy way to preheat the sap. 90% sure I will get a float box.

I will have to make changes to the evaporator, it will be shorter and wider. I will have to figure out a way to keep the fire bricks in place on the sides. I think I have a way. My top row of blocks will be one solid block and hopefully this will help with not allowing smoke to escape through the cracks between blocks.

I know my evaporator would be better with a base stack and 8” pipe, but for this coming season, I will stick with the same setup as last year, with the 6” pipe coming out the back. That could be something to add for the following season. Right now the cost of the base stack, 8” stainless steel piping and whatever pipe components to go through the roof, is an extra cost, that will not be in the budget.

Time savers with be the new pan, hopefully a more air tight evaporator, the RO working, more seasoned wood than this year and more pieces of wood that are wrist size. Because the pan will sit on top of the blocks instead of down into the firebox, I will have 4 more inches of headroom in the firebox, to add more wood. I likely will get the float box and that will keep my sap level at a much better level than scaredy cat me would allow on my own. With these efficiencies and less taps, it should really help to reduce overall boil time.

Another change is I will pump the sap from my collection barrels into the garage where my RO will be. That should mean a lot less of carrying pails of sap. The one disadvantage is at one point during the boil, I will have to take about three or four minutes to go to the garage, pump the concentrate into a collection tank, then go back to the shelter and pump that into the head tank. That is a lot less work and a lot less distraction than my process last year.

The one other thing I will do in the off-season, is to add the over centre clamps to my DYI vacuum filter that worked really well.

Swingpure

05-01-2022, 02:10 PM

I am ordering my 2x4 divided pan today and will have it fitted to have a float box. I might not get it until the fall, as there are many evaporator orders ahead of me. They make both evaporators and pans. We will see when I get it.

I also lucked into new 2x6 PT wood that will make all of the trusses for my shelter. I will have a sort of cupola at the peak of the roof, that will run the length of the shelter. The cupola opening will be left open with no windows. The opening as presently planned will only be 4.5” to 6”, tall. Is that enough? I know some opening is better than nothing, but would 6” be enough to make a difference?

https://share.icloud.com/photos/0612BQiKLI5NnEhi-csao8bKA

The shelter will look something like this, except only two posts a side and the cupola up top. I will have my existing concrete pad for the cinder block evaporator to sit on, then a wood deck surrounding the pad which will be 14’x14’. In the fall, I will stack my wood for the evaporator on the edges of the deck to act as a four foot high wall and also be very handy when I start boiling. I will also add the support for a head tank.

Brien

05-01-2022, 03:09 PM

where are you ordering your pan from? I am intrigued with a divided pan but I am building a 10x20 shack this year, so all my fun money will go towards that. I also will be using mostly reclaimed lumber, but I will still have to buy the metal for the roof and some rough lumber for the board and batton walls

Also I saw in another post you were asking if you can get light coloured syrup in a flat pan. What I do with my 2x3 pan when I'm doing a big batch is remove 10litre of close to near syrup and keep on boiling down and then when I'm at the end I add it back in

Swingpure

05-01-2022, 04:48 PM

[QUOTE=Brien;404574]where are you ordering your pan from? I am intrigued with a divided pan …. [\QUOTE]

https://www.kijiji.ca/v-view-details.html?adId=1592285302

Ryan is the sellers name: +1 (519) 278-6160. The 2x4 divided pan is $750 Cdn. All tig welded. 22 gauge stainless steel. The thermometer is an extra $100 and the float box is $250.

My hope with the divided pan and float box is that my boils will be more efficient with a consistent level, that is lower than I would dare by eye, peering through the steam, that it will be easier, not having to ladle all of the time and perhaps make lighter and better syrup, although to be honest, I don’t know how I can make better syrup than I did with my five steam pans this year, and I loved the amber colour they made. Also with my steam pans, I could do two batches in one boil, although I guess with the divided pan you are essentially making a small batch every time you draw it off.

The one unknown for me is how often you have to draw it off. I guess that is variable based on your boil rate, but I don’t know if it is on average every 15 minutes, 30 minutes, an hour?

Swingpure

05-09-2022, 07:57 PM

I am reconsidering getting the base stack and 8 inch pipe. As I prepare for my sugar pavilion, I have to design it for the future, and the future is the base stack and the divided pan, all that can work on the cinder block evaporator or a real evaporator. I am finding it easier to plan and build it, if I have the base stack to work with.

Tomorrow I drop a tree that is in the way of the structure, then will get an excavator to remove some roots and dig out the holes for the post. Although the pavilion will be the design for the first year, I will build it so it will be easy to add walls in the future, if I find they are required.

Once I get it the structure built, I will start on the evaporator. With the new pan and base stack, it will be quite different.

Swingpure

05-10-2022, 09:34 PM

Marked the spots where my posts will go. I was going to rent an excavator to dig the hole because of all of the roots I would encounter, but when they wanted an extra $150 for delivery and pickup, I decided I can dig the four holes for $500. Trying to plan where the evaporator, will sit and where the base stack and stove pipe will go through the roof. Where I put the posts will affect that positioning.

Also looked at material for the evaporator and also trying to figure out what flashings I need to go through the metal roof.

Right now I am proceeding that I will get the base stack with the 8” pipe. Trying to find a used double wall stainless steel portion of the stack, to go through the roof.

I can either have 10” height from the fire grate to the bottom of the pan or 17.5”. Any recommendations?

The divided pan I am getting has four channels, I could get it with three, but he recommends the four channels.

Swingpure

05-13-2022, 06:28 PM

I decided on the dimensions of my firebox. It will be 17/18” tall from the top of the fire grate to the bottom of the pan. It will be 23” wide and 31” deep. The front of the ramp will be flat for 15” before angling off at a 45° angle, then it will be flat for 15”, with a 2” space between the ramp and the bottom of the pan. I will need 60+ firebricks for the firebox and ramp.

I am still thinking about what I will do for the door.

For sure I will be getting the base stack. It will have an 18” wide opening and an 8” stove pipe.

My RO pump is working now, but will have to wait until next March to see it work with the membranes.

Swingpure

05-17-2022, 08:11 PM

Well my plans for this coming season certainly have changed. Under the category of nothing ventured, nothing gained, I asked a neighbour if I could tap his trees. His property is a steep long hill loaded with maple trees. The sap should race down the hill.

I think I heard for 3/16 line, 25 taps is a good sweet spot maximum for the number of taps. Is this true?

Is there a maximum length for 3/16 line on a steep hill?

I was thinking of adding two 25 tap lines on the hill. There is a flat spot near the road, that I can use as a collection area and pump the sap from the barrels to the road.

This will raise my planned taps from 80 to 130. Boy the RO better work this year and I will need all of efficiencies that come with the evaporator design change, the new pan and the base stack and 8” stove pipe.

Wannabe

05-19-2022, 08:50 PM

I thought you were gonna stay smaller and try to make it enjoyable??;)

Swingpure

05-19-2022, 11:12 PM

I thought you were gonna stay smaller and try to make it enjoyable??;)

Lol, this will be “easy” sap, from lines instead of buckets. The hill is so long and steep, it is so perfect. The collection area, is right beside the road. I don’t look forward to the day in March when I have to trudge through the waist deep snow up the hill to install the taps.

I may decide not to tap some of the lines I had last year that were on one of my immediate neighbour’s property. I will know that when I actually walk up my other neighbour’s hill and see if there are 50 trees total in two lines, within a reasonable distance. I still may end up with fewer taps than last year, and all on lines. 100 taps sounds like a nice round number.

I know I will have greater boiling efficiencies with the RO, improved evaporator, pan and float box. The evaporator will have an improved fire box and most of all will have a base stack and an 8” stove pipe. I am hoping those boiling efficiencies will reduce my boiling time by 60%+. I will also make my vacuum filter a little better, and will pump more than carry and have fewer things to clean.

One other big improvement for sap flow next season is I will tap the lines lower on the trees, hopefully gaining more sap per tap. When I removed the taps at the end of the season, I realized that I had installed the taps about 6.5’ up from the base of the tree. I can drop that a couple of feet in most cases, which should result in greater sap pressure at the tap.

The other big change for next year is a better structure to boil under, my “sugar pavilion”, which will have a much higher roof with venting and open sides, which should make it much more healthy to boil under. I am working on building that now. I will be walking on a wooden deck, instead of on gravelly mud.

The new pan besides being more efficient, should be easier with the float box, I will not have to ladle the sap from pan to pan. I will also not be preheating the sap on the three induction stoves in the three pots. Although very effective, it kept me busy.

I do not know of a way to preheat the sap between the head tank and the float box.

One last efficiency will be that my wood will be a full year more seasoned and will all be wrist size. It will also be very handy, bordering on the deck that surrounds the evaporator.

I don’t drink alcohol, but joked last year if I did drink beer, I never would have had time to drink any. Stories of sitting around the pan boiling, drinking beer was not possible last year, but this coming season, I hope to sit in a comfortable chair at times, enjoying my water.

Andy VT

05-20-2022, 08:17 AM

This reminds me of a remark from a fellow hobbyist.
"Sugaring is a fun hobby, except in February, March, and April. During that time its a little hectic and a lot of work"

Wannabe

05-20-2022, 04:43 PM

This reminds me of a remark from a fellow hobbyist.
"Sugaring is a fun hobby, except in February, March, and April. During that time its a little hectic and a lot of work"

:lol: I like that one!

Swingpure

05-20-2022, 05:53 PM

Would a vented roof cap on a metal roof, that runs the length of the roof, act as quasi cupola? Would it allow at least a fair amount of steam out?

https://share.icloud.com/photos/0dfG2GTdYxbJlVNnqt_DEWQeg

My gable peak ends will be wide open and so will be the walls, except where it is lined with my fire wood.

Thanks

Gary

aamyotte

05-21-2022, 03:32 PM

From the size of cupolas I have seen I don't think you would get the exhaust rate with those.

Pdiamond

05-21-2022, 07:30 PM

Gary, I tried that with mine and it didn't work. I now have a 2 x 4 cupola, works great. Open one side or the other depends on the wind, sometimes I drop them both.

Swingpure

05-21-2022, 08:17 PM

Thanks.

The two guys that will be helping me with the roof, who have more experience, seem to be reluctant to build the cupola, but I guess I will have to insist.

I am still a few weeks from that. I am waiting for a backhoe to dig out two stumps that are in the way of my deck area, and it will dig out my four post holes. Then comes sono tubes and concrete, and then the build starts.

It will be dual purpose, a sort of gazebo, (pavilion) with a large deck in the summer and a “sugar pavilion” in the spring. The deck will surround the concrete pad I used last year, that the evaporator sat on.

Swingpure

05-21-2022, 09:01 PM

Gary, I tried that with mine and it didn't work. I now have a 2 x 4 cupola, works great. Open one side or the other depends on the wind, sometimes I drop them both.

Thanks

I have a friend, who has a cupola that runs the length of the shack and both sides are open with no windows. Works well for him.

I will do something.

wobbletop

05-22-2022, 10:58 AM

Swingpure

05-22-2022, 05:15 PM

It's tough to find "plans" for a cupola.

I made a box section that would just fit between the roof truss' and then secured the box to the truss'. I used louvered fence sections horizontally to create the openings.

https://i.ibb.co/j3NRnhL/20201223-161927.jpg (https://ibb.co/zPMJqsS)

Thanks! Nice sugar shack! If I ever get a real evaporator, I will add walls to what I am building, but while I am using a cinderblock evaporator I want lots of open sides.

Can you open the lourvers or does the steam find it’s way through. (I know that could be a stupid question). Is your cupola about a foot high?

Swingpure

05-22-2022, 06:57 PM

The picture is crude drawing of my truss spacing plan for a 12’ beam. I may still have a 16’ long beam and add two more trusses. The red line will be where my exhaust pipe will be. If I have a two foot long cupola it would go between 56” and 80” truss, but likely will make a four foot cupola going between the 56” and 104” trusses.

Also attached is a plan for a cupola. I would likely have the middle truss go all the way up like the others.

https://share.icloud.com/photos/09f6I8a0WYpVbKwpxGlvjXKPg

https://share.icloud.com/photos/03eUzV-T_09Fk5l5zhJQdRKBw

Pdiamond

05-22-2022, 08:28 PM

Because my building was already done, all we did was remove the shingles and cut the plywood to the size of the cupola. I had an Amish friend make the cupola as it was much easier for me to just put it up, rather than mess with the building of it. I can't cut a straight line for nothing, let alone build anything. He did a great job too. My son screwed it on from inside the sugar house.

wobbletop

05-22-2022, 09:48 PM

Thanks! Nice sugar shack! If I ever get a real evaporator, I will add walls to what I am building, but while I am using a cinderblock evaporator I want lots of open sides.

Can you open the lourvers or does the steam find it’s way through. (I know that could be a stupid question). Is your cupola about a foot high?

These are what I used for louvers:
https://www.homedepot.ca/product/flexfence-flexfence-8-ft-louver-hardware-system/1001682798

They swivel. It's 3 truss widths long, so about 4'. The opening is about 15" (3 standard fence boards).

It's probably undersized, but I only have a barrel evaporator now, but planning to have a 2x4 next year. If the bigger evaporator produces too much steam, I can add a hood to the evaporator.

I'll try to get a picture from inside but it's built using air nailer, so no fancy joinery like your plans.

Swingpure

05-23-2022, 12:04 PM

These are what I used for louvers:
https://www.homedepot.ca/product/flexfence-flexfence-8-ft-louver-hardware-system/1001682798

They swivel. It's 3 truss widths long, so about 4'. The opening is about 15" (3 standard fence boards).

It's probably undersized, but I only have a barrel evaporator now, but planning to have a 2x4 next year. If the bigger evaporator produces too much steam, I can add a hood to the evaporator.

I'll try to get a picture from inside but it's built using air nailer, so no fancy joinery like your plans.

Thanks, very cool about the louvers. Thanks for the link. I may also do the roof vents for the other 8 feet of the roof, not covered by the cupola.

I won’t be doing any of that fancy joinery either.

Swingpure

05-23-2022, 12:14 PM

I walked up the hill today where I will be putting my new lines. It is steep all the way with no flat spots and lots of maple trees and there will be a good long stretch at the end that will be steep leading up to my collection barrels, that will be the “crux”, the engine of the lines.

It will be ideal. I have to get permission each year to use it, so I will be grateful for any year that I am allowed to use it.

I am also going to redo some lines I did last year and also will not do two lines. I won’t know how many taps I will have for sure until the fall when I actually put all of the lines out, but it will be between 100 and 120. No buckets. And I will have the same number of collection areas and barrels. I will have a better collection pump and piping into the RO in my garage, so a lot less carrying and a lot less pails to clean.

Today I dug out three medium sized roots with the help of my ATV pulling them out. I am also grading the area around my concrete pad. Not much more will happen until I get the backhoe here to dig out the two large stumps on the left side of the picture. Orange pail lids show the approximate placement of the four posts for the 10x10 structure. There will be a fairly large deck surrounding the pad. All of the wood except the four posts is free wood.

https://share.icloud.com/photos/045SP5iYDI9gPFm16uqZma5Ag

Pdiamond

05-23-2022, 07:18 PM

Gary, you can't beat free.

wobbletop

05-23-2022, 10:01 PM

As promised. Hard to get a good view with the truss' in the way.

https://i.ibb.co/bzyzg29/20220523-152845-1.jpg (https://ibb.co/72T2JRm)

https://i.ibb.co/JHTxFwV/20220523-152932-1.jpg (https://ibb.co/cQ9bXS0)

Swingpure

05-23-2022, 10:46 PM

As promised. Hard to get a good view with the truss' in the way.

Thanks. It was also interesting seeing your trusses.

Not positive yet what I am going to do.

Swingpure

05-24-2022, 04:35 PM

The good news is the back hoe showed up and dug out the two large stumps. I knew there was a 50/50 risk that my concrete pad might get affected because the stumps were so close to the pad. Prior to the hoe arriving, I cut as many roots as I could find going under the pad. At first I thought I was successful, but on the almost last scoop, the pad got lifted and broke at the only hairline crack in the pad.

https://share.icloud.com/photos/096Y_vlprnS9iJ4ajq8S6ygfg

The bad thing is I had based all of my measurements for the post locations, off of the pad. With the pad moved, I will have to go to plan B.

The back hoe also had a large bucket. so the holes are quite large for my sono tubes, but fortunately my soil is very sandy, so it will not be too hard to fill in.

I will figure out how to place the sono tubes in the correct, square locations.

Pdiamond

05-24-2022, 07:49 PM

Gary forgive the ignorant question, but what are sono tubes?

Sugarbush Ridge

05-24-2022, 08:17 PM

Pour concrete,,,, put rebar in. very cheap for what they do. I concrete may crack but not break apart

Sugarbush Ridge

05-24-2022, 08:21 PM

Sono tubes,,, round cardboard tubes to pour concrete for piers and after concrete dry tear off cardboard.

Swingpure

05-24-2022, 08:28 PM

Gary forgive the ignorant question, but what are sono tubes?

They are hard “cardboard” forms that you pour concrete into for pilings. I place my posts on top of them.

https://share.icloud.com/photos/0b2RLGj5kefcQsUdsV-NuFNGA

https://www.sonotube.com/sonotubeconcreteforms.aspx

Pdiamond

05-25-2022, 06:42 PM

Thank You - Learned something new today.

Swingpure

05-25-2022, 08:09 PM

I got the sonotubes in place today and mostly filled up the holes surrounding them. Rain arrived earlier than expected, so I did not 100% get all of the holes filled and I did not get a chance to cut the sono tubes down to the level I want them to be. They are buried four feet down. I covered them up with bags and plywood. Rain is in the forecast for the next two days, so hopefully Saturday I will finish some of the prep work and pour concrete.

I have some of my metal roofing already from my last year’s shelter. I will have to cut that into smaller lengths and also buy four new panels.

I am likely a month away from being completely finished.

https://share.icloud.com/photos/07ckqU4RQEwPQaRAcOQKzUz8Q

Swingpure

05-27-2022, 07:58 PM

A friend shared with me this picture of a totally different structure, but it sort has a full length cupola, something that would be fairly easy to build and for my open design might work. I would cap the ends.

https://share.icloud.com/photos/010cxzU5CEPKstVo0b6uqfADg

Today I ordered the rest of my metal roof.

Tomorrow I pour concrete in the sono tubes. It will be a few more days before I put my posts on them.

Swingpure

05-28-2022, 06:43 PM

Poured the concrete for the four posts today.

https://share.icloud.com/photos/0a8Ix3gOwZ2NBZBR3-hr9MOCQ

I decided that I will pour an entirely new pad and scrap the old one. Further reading on pouring new concrete over old, does not bode well for the longevity of the pad. I will make it slightly larger than the old one. This time I will add some wire mesh to the pad.

As soon as my friend with the tractor comes over and takes away the old pad and grades the area where the new pad and deck will be going, I will pour the new pad, then start working on the beams that will go on the posts.

Swingpure

05-29-2022, 08:05 PM

The old concrete pad was removed today and my friend graded the area pretty level. I will have a few touch ups tomorrow with the rake.

I also made the form for the concrete pour tomorrow. I still have to level it and stake it. I made it a little different with a 2x6, flat board at the bottom of the form. I did this because I want my deck, to be perfectly level with the pad.

I checked the level on the four piers I poured yesterday and they were perfectly level both ways, which is a good start.

https://share.icloud.com/photos/056v4GmqeBB6AGoFFMcV8ZvGA

Swingpure

05-30-2022, 06:22 PM

It was a hot day, but I poured 25 bags worth of concrete into the form for the pad. 24 likely would have been enough, but I wanted to make sure it was full. It is plenty thick enough for essentially what is a heat barrier to prevent any root fires (unlikely in March and April) and a level surface to build the evaporator on. I made it 4 inches wider and three inches longer than the old one. As mentioned it will be surrounded with a large wooden deck.

https://share.icloud.com/photos/0fducn9hinAX4eQnlnE2BST6w

https://share.icloud.com/photos/0246aiGU-1MQQ7l2GJCVa7I_Q

We may put up the posts and beams tomorrow. After that will be the trusses.

I ordered two more roof panels, so my roof will be 15 feet long, overhanging the posts by 2.5’.

I figured out how I will build the cupola. Too hard to explain, but will take pictures when I get to that point. It will be 4 feet long and will have a 10” opening.

I am trying to buy some used double wall 8” stove pipe. New stuff is uber expensive. Finding flashing for double wall 8” stovepipe for the roof is also not easy. I sure hope the base stack is worth it.

Pdiamond

05-30-2022, 06:59 PM

Swingpure

05-30-2022, 07:33 PM

I put a high temp boot for my pipe to go through on my roof. You can cut it to size. It's made for the double wall pipe. Menards was the store of purchase. i don;t know if you have those in Canada or not. They also were fairly reasonable on the double wall pipe.

Yes we have those. Did you put any flashing on top of the boot, or just the boot?

I was thinking that I could get away with one 36” piece of double wall pipe, but it is so close to the length I need, I may need two. They are around $300 new for a 36” piece. That seems terribly expensive. I keep thinking I am looking in the wrong place for them.

Swingpure

05-31-2022, 03:20 PM

Some good progress today on the structure. It is still a work in progress. The temporary chords will be replaced with better ones. Supports from the posts to the beams to be added. Just one more truss/rafter to go up. I will be using 2x6 for strapping, because I have it available free.

Tonight I will build the remaining truss and start to cut pieces for the cupola.

https://share.icloud.com/photos/0a5TRE3PbCshd7Zz7uiHfhbMg

https://share.icloud.com/photos/07fMrC6P4K_UrEIExYdklxArw

Pdiamond

05-31-2022, 07:12 PM

When I typed it in on their search bar it was as follows; double wall chimney pipe. The price that came up for my store was $115.49 that is U.S. dollars. I cannot believe that it more than doubles in Canada. The boot had the base flashing attached. I did add the extra ring that goes on the outside of the pipe to deflect water, but right now for the life of me I can't remember what they are called.

Swingpure

06-03-2022, 07:23 PM

The structure that will house my evaporator is coming along. Just waiting for the metal roofing (June 13) and the decking material (next week) to arrive.

I still will add a cupola, but I am not a roof guy and my friend who is helping me says he will add it. He is doing it differently than I would, but seeing how he will be the one up on the roof and that he has built houses that have made magazines, I will yield to his knowledge.

https://share.icloud.com/photos/0cbvWn6noCwxktA-IcyZELtng

I am going to have to go to a stove pipe store and understand exactly what I need to do to come up through the metal roof. It is the only part of my plan for the up coming season where I still have no set plan for. I want to do it safely, but also do not want to break the bank.

After I have finished the structure and deck, the next thing will be to add the over center clamps to the vacuum filter. I highly recommend the vacuum filter. It did an excellent job of filtering and in under two minutes of time.

After that I will be adding piping to the garage, so that I can pump from some of my collection barrels, directly to my raw sap barrel for the RO.

Late August/early September, I will walk up where my new lines will go and like last year, I will use twine to mark the path where my lines will go. This not only helps with determining the best path for the lines, but helps me identify how much line I have to buy and how many drops, I will need.

Swingpure

06-09-2022, 12:47 AM

I am still waiting for the metal roof to arrive next week and for the balance of my used deck boards to arrive, to finish the deck. That should be done by the weekend.

https://share.icloud.com/photos/00eZ9blDioAT0P4gnU8G_FG6w

In the end I decided not to add a cupola at this time. Partially because my friend helping me was reluctant to build it, but mostly because the sides and the ends are so wide open, the steam and smoke will easily find a way out.

If I ever get a real evaporator and close in the shelter, or if I find that the steam and smoke is not exiting well, I have structured things so that I can always add one in the future, with not too many problems.

After this is all completed, my next project is to add the off centered clamps to the vacuum filter.

berkshires

06-09-2022, 06:19 AM

Looks nice! For several years I had no opening directly above my evaporator. You are right that with big enough opening on the ends of the structure the steam will find it's way out. The problem is that there will be a constant pool of steam above the evaporator, and it will condense on those joists and drip into your pan.

Gabe

Swingpure

06-16-2022, 01:40 PM

We got the metal roof on today. I will have to wait until next week to get the deck boards I need to finish the deck.

It will never be a “sugar shack” because it does not have any walls and no cupola, but it will be a good shelter for the evaporator. Once the evaporator is in it with the official looking base stack, it will look more like a sugar something. For the summer it will be a nice gazebo area.

https://share.icloud.com/photos/0f6MI5MduL2QlCuV6uAo8bsfA
https://share.icloud.com/photos/0d8m1bYmbiYTQR0ZkReXjLyCA
https://share.icloud.com/photos/0b99pTVTbYDeYOwdvoKQu-aTg

In the fall I will surround the evaporator area with a four foot high wall of my split wood for the evaporator. If need be when I start evaporating and there is a driving rain coming in on one side, I can always put up tarps.

Next thing, after I finish the deck boards, will be to get some good cobalt drill bits to drill the holes in my stainless steel vacuum filter, to install the over center clamps. I cannot tell you how good the DYI vacuum filter is, and what a great job of filtering it does and it does it in minutes (1 to 2 minutes).

paulslund

06-18-2022, 12:39 PM

Swingpure

06-18-2022, 01:45 PM

My first structure was also what I called a sugaring gazebo.. the following year I obtained (by chance) some free materials and expanded the footprint and enclosed with walls.. I found the wind with the open gazebo made managing the steam very difficult, especially as I manually check the level in the pans (no float box and a siphon to connect pans).. You might consider wrapping the walls with thin plastic sheeting (i.e. just wrap and staple on the outside) for the month + you are boiling and then take down when the season is done. Blocking the wind from cooling the pans is also beneficial.. just a thought.

Looking good thought! Much nicer than my gazebo was! :-)

Thanks.

My posts are 10x10 apart, so I will have four 10’ long tarps at the ready, and will adjust them as needed. I will have to learn what is best and that could be different each day.

My wife likes the open look during the summer, so the temporary tarping, may be the way I go for the next few years.

I just finished the deck on the structure today. All of the wood for the structure and the deck, with the exception of the four 6x6 posts, was free.

https://share.icloud.com/photos/005-eqmCM595IPNsT8H3DfU0w

https://share.icloud.com/photos/08dUujNGpNTpSjIsYQ4vFZ46g

https://share.icloud.com/photos/0e0FtH4hyALky6e7gBhFHyZRQ

Gary

Swingpure

06-19-2022, 01:11 PM

Installed my over centred clamps on my vacuum filter today. It seemed impossible to drill last Spring, but with different drill bits and an improved technique, it became almost easy to drill today.

This will make filtering syrup even easier now. I highly recommend 4walls DYI vacuum filter. It does a super job of filtering in just minutes.

https://share.icloud.com/photos/0b41ZRtcHUEz48gUlmd16Gh_Q

https://share.icloud.com/photos/088ow5kBqX_0rXt-rXopojzeA

Next project will be to build the stand that will hold the head tank. After that is to install the piping through the garage wall to pump directly from the collection barrels to the RO raw sap barrel, that will be in the garage.

maple flats

06-19-2022, 07:06 PM

2 things. Earlier you were asking or wondering about draw off frequency, just do it by temperature and don't try to time it. Actually back when I had a 2x6 I attended a seminar by Glen Goodrich and he said he draws continually. Yes his evaporator was far bigger, but I started doing continuous draws. As the temperature got to syrup, I cracked the draw off valve slightly. Early when I tried I was able to get 15-20 minute long trickle draws before I had to close the valve. In time I got better and a few times I got draws of 45-60 minutes. Then I graduated to a 3x8, the draws got longer. However after fighting getting an auto draw I finally got one, WOW, so much easier.
Cupola, they are easy to build. It's common to make them the same size as the evaporator. Just make them a little house on the roof with both sides openable and closeable, from below, at floor level.

Swingpure

06-19-2022, 09:48 PM

Swingpure

07-09-2022, 04:36 PM

I finally received all of my parts for the pipe that will go through my garage wall. I will be pumping from collection barrels and transfer tanks into the garage into the RO raw sap barrel.

It is a 16” stainless steel pipe, with stainless steel couplings and brass fittings and brass quick connects. I will be able to have quick connects to connect to both ends of the pipe. I will wait for fall to drill the hole and hook up the pipe.

https://share.icloud.com/photos/046bjACd6iII9f4pNJvTtRdXg

Swingpure

07-13-2022, 06:32 PM

Today I picked up my 3/16 tubing for my two new lines. I got the last two 500 rolls on the shelf. I also purchased all of the necessary fittings and new filters for the DYI vacuum filter.

Best of all I found a relatively cheap source for the translucent horizontal 35 gallon tanks. Still not cheap, but a lot cheaper than CDL and some other sources. I will buy two, one to go on my ATV to transfer sap from my remote collection barrels and the other will be my head tank.

Swingpure

07-13-2022, 06:39 PM

My divided pan looks like it will come later than sooner.

I have a question. Last year with the batch boiling I never mixed batches. I had 14 separate batches. With the divided pans and draw offs, can I mix draw offs from different consecutive days, until I have enough that I want to then finish it?

Super Sapper

07-14-2022, 06:28 AM

As long as there is good flavor you can combine whatever you want to. It is purely up to you and what you want to achieve. I add my finished syrup to my bottler until I get enough to fill whatever container I am using at the time. I then grade this and bottle. The advantage for a smaller producer is less overall work by finishing less batches. The disadvantage is that you will not be able to keep all of your batches separate if that is you goal.

Swingpure

07-16-2022, 04:37 PM

Picked up the metal for the frame that will go on top of my cinder blocks, that will support the divided pan. The angle iron pieces will also help secure the top of the firebricks. I will get them welded up next week. The angle iron is 1/4” thick and is 3”x2”, The end flat plates are 1/4” thick and 1.5” wide.

I will put gasket material between the metal and the pan.

The frame as shown is upside down. The angle pieces will point downward on the evaporator.

https://share.icloud.com/photos/0400S_N5-nbA06oLrjWu99Geg

https://share.icloud.com/photos/023ip6moEBY5DAj6PkCZCn4Ew

I also droppped a string from the rod where the centre of the stove pipe will go and made a mark on the concrete pad below. Based on that mark, I can start to build the evaporator again, but will wait to mid August to start to build it. I will start bringing over the firewood that will surround the evaporator at the beginning of September.

Although I hope to get my pan and base stack before the snow flies in November, I am not positive that will happen.

maple flats

07-17-2022, 07:22 AM

When you say “In time I got better”, what did you do differently than before? Just cracked it less?

Yes, I just got more accurate in the amount I opened the valve so the draw could keep going longer.

Swingpure

07-26-2022, 03:55 PM

I am still waiting for my metal frame to be welded and that should be done shortly.

In the meantime, I am starting to piece together my cinderblock evaporator. It is slightly shorter and definitely wider than last year’s evaporator. I am just putting some blocks down to determine whatever size blocks, metal floor and firebricks I will need. There will be a layer of firebricks over the metal floor.

The fire box will be 23.5” wide, 30” deep and 18” high. There will be an angled ramp for 7.5 inches, then a flat ramp for 15”. All of that will have firebrick on the surface. There will be 1.75” from the top of the firebrick on the flat ramp to the pan. With the fire grate added, there will be 12” from the grate to the pan. I can make it so there is 16.5” inches from the grate to the bottom of the pan, but that will result in considerably more firebrick

https://share.icloud.com/photos/099IHYHvWTlGyQGPj22sFDL0Q

I might not get my pan, float box and base stack until October. Hopefully not later than that.

Swingpure

08-09-2022, 06:21 PM

My metal frame to hold the 4x2 divided pan and to help hold the fire bricks, arrived today. In the pictures the evaporator is not close to being finished, it is just little parts to see just how I am going to put it all together.

I needed to make sure my cinder blocks were the exact distance apart from each other and wanted to wait until I received the metal frame. It turned out it fit exactly and not only held the fire brick to the side of the cinder block well, but also had slight down pressure to help hold the fire bricks in place.

As this year’s evaporator is 10” wider than last years, I will have to make an additional 10” wide angled ramp and also make a 2.5 inch filler for the other parts of the ramp. I will be pouring concrete into forms tomorrow to make those pieces.

I may also get my wider fire grate tomorrow. Before the end of this week, I should have all of the evaporator built, with the exception of the base stack. I hope I get that before the snow flies.

https://share.icloud.com/photos/08efui3Zs9rGJzWfsip8NcBzA

https://share.icloud.com/photos/041rzdE7KthOf4R8OA37ouvew

https://share.icloud.com/photos/0ecvsHB-WxLlu1meuFcTEY1cg

Swingpure

08-10-2022, 07:36 PM

Today I poured the concrete for the missing pieces of my cinder block evaporator. Before the end of the week, it should be all built except not having the base stack and divided pan.

Before I finish the evaporator, just wondering if I am building something that will succeed. I will have four inches of space below the fire grate. The fire box will be 23.5” wide. There is a 45° angled ramp about 7.5” long, then a flat ramp, 15” long, with a 1.75” space between the ramp firebrick and the bottom of the pan. There is a base stack over the end part of the 15” flat ramp that feeds into an 8” stove pipe, that will be 12’ tall with no rain cap.

Right now I am not planning on a blower, but could add one, but I am not sure one would be good for the cinder blocks.

Do you think I should have good draft with this setup?

Swingpure

08-11-2022, 06:00 PM

I did not get everything done I had hoped to, but I did get a lot done. I cut the metal to fit for the floor plate, and cut concrete blocks and panels to fit certain locations. I also took the concrete I poured for other locations and they all fit perfectly. I then started to place the firebrick. The angle iron holds the top of the firebrick really well.

Tomorrow I will cut the firebrick to fit the special places.

The only thing I do not have set in my head yet is the door, I keep changing my mind. Last year I had a large concrete door with handles that I simply slid off to the side, when I wanted to load wood. It was a pretty good fit and seal, but was not perfect.

I will come up with something.

https://share.icloud.com/photos/01c5XptzzB-N3Z8C9G9ct4gOw

https://share.icloud.com/photos/071kT14hPTWCtIT2a-dSGO14Q

Swingpure

08-12-2022, 01:57 PM

I have the fire brick basically completed. Some sand yet to fill in some spaces on the floor, the sides are tight.

https://share.icloud.com/photos/096Ez-mv9mJrQA0jAg92OhagA

Now to figure out the door.

Andy VT

08-12-2022, 08:12 PM

That looks amazing. I want to build that. After you figure out the door and show us those pictures! And your AUF/AOF setup. :-)

maple flats

08-13-2022, 06:47 AM

I can't access your pictures, I have an Android phone not an Apple.

Swingpure

08-13-2022, 09:30 AM

It should still open on an Android phone, I just tested sending the same link to my buddies android phone and it worked and you are the first person that has ever said you could not open one of my iCloud links. I am not sure what to do to help. Sorry you cannot see the picture.

Gary

Swingpure

08-13-2022, 11:04 AM

So I had considered getting a metal 12x12 door and attaching it to metal plates, getting things welded and making it all fit, but that would have been $400 or more by the time I was done. With all of the other expenditures with the divided pan, float box, stainless steel lid and the base stack, two new 500’ lines each, I thought that project could wait a year.

Instead I reused left over material from last year’s evaporator, and I am using last year’s door (although I will renew it), and it will work just fine.
The handles on the door were simply wood from my wood pile, that is cut to size and drilled. I will renew the handles as well. So other than buying a concrete patio stone to replace the door panel, it cost me nothing.

https://share.icloud.com/photos/0e0uzf1X0Hdhl9AXQS2utv4Vg

https://share.icloud.com/photos/094I5XppbSPF-txI-0ZAMKohQ

https://share.icloud.com/photos/092N4pcxLh00QL-WUK_NVy5yA

After reading some posts about DYI AUF, I know what I want to do. It definitely will be variable speed and will likely be on a low setting. I know last year, my leaf blower, even from a distance was way too much. I am not sure I need it, but maybe a little additional air will help, without damaging the cinder blocks.

Swingpure

08-13-2022, 06:55 PM

I purchased this fan for my AUF. I will rig up something to vary the speed, unless the airflow is not overly powerful.

https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B00CQBFOTS?smid=A3HEJJH0D3Q286&ref_=chk_typ_imgToDp&th=1

https://share.icloud.com/photos/041bVGMDVyzNvMsGqlSw8s6rw

Once I see how much flow comes out it, I may find a way to pipe it to come out in two different locations.

Edit: Well that was easy, I now have ordered my fan speed controller. https://www.amazon.ca/iPower-Exhaust-Controller-Adjuster-Inline/dp/B0714FFG4F/ref=pd_day0fbt_sccl_2/147-9119916-3770819?pd_rd_w=IPhoi&content-id=amzn1.sym.8b6780d3-612a-41a1-b711-b85b62069095&pf_rd_p=8b6780d3-612a-41a1-b711-b85b62069095&pf_rd_r=VJF7XWEBPZSEXP9XG8PH&pd_rd_wg=lPTut&pd_rd_r=2c54bc08-c239-45cb-ae17-4b534cef329a&pd_rd_i=B0714FFG4F&psc=1

https://share.icloud.com/photos/08aXXXwycggqvfLxe1_sOeJRg

I was thinking piping the flow to have AUF and AOF, but I doubt this fan has the pressure for that and will be happy with air coming from under the grate. I might yet split the flow to come out each side of the draft opening.

Swingpure

08-14-2022, 04:56 PM

The fan arrived today from Amazon, I think less than 24 hours after I ordered it. I think it will produce the right amount of air for my cinder block arch. I will have the speed control to dial back if need be, but may not need it. I was thinking of splitting the flow, but seeing it, I just will funnel it towards the opening below the grate. I will just use some 4” metal ducting either side of it.

It should increase the heat in the firebox, but I don’t want to get overly hot and overly damage the cinder blocks.

https://share.icloud.com/photos/043KdAjas5bxwB_j8fepMJyQg

https://share.icloud.com/photos/065inibUvRNS5nj2M9leZMXGg

Pdiamond

08-14-2022, 09:06 PM

Swingpure

08-14-2022, 09:29 PM

Gary, you won't damage the cinder blocks, you have them protected with fire brick. I don't think that fan will get your firebricks that hot. my squirrel cage blower on my sealed arch can make mine glow.

Thanks.

Last season with my leaf blower just idling, and held at a distance, it caused the flames to come out from under the door and fire was going crazy.

I will give this one a try. It will be better than nothing and I can always quickly get something like a squirrel cage blower, if I need something more powerful.

Swingpure

08-14-2022, 09:54 PM

I am glad that I have had stuff to do on the evaporator and building the sugar gazebo and deck this summer, it has kept the maple season jitters away.

In the next two to four weeks, when my brother comes to visit, I have 5 face cords of split wood, that is a year and half old, to split further into wrist sized pieces, and will surround the evaporator with the newly split wood on three sides.

Also I have string that I will run to find the path for the two new lines. I will identify the maple trees to be tapped and will measure how much tubing I will need. Each spool of line is 500 feet long. I have already purchased two 500’ rolls of tubing and need to know if I will need more. (Hope not)

I have walked up the steep incline once and have no real idea how far it is to the peak and how many maple trees there are enroute. My goal is to have 30 taps on each of the two new lines. I think with the steepness of the hill, I can get away with 30 taps per 3/16 line.

In October I will put out the actual lines. Two are actually out, with five other long ones and two short ones to put out.

Swingpure

08-16-2022, 05:49 PM

My primary transfer pump has arrived. My friend who has been doing sugaring for years has one just like it. It will pump much faster than last year’s pump and will be easier to use. It has stainless steel components. I will use it to transfer sap from my collection barrels, to my 30 gallon transfer tank, to my RO raw sap barrel. Tomorrow I will buy a fitting to go from the 1” NPT outlet to GHT. I will also buy a connector to go from the bare end of the 12 volt cord to my quick connect cables. It will be powered by my ATV and the transfer tank will also be mounted on my ATV.

https://share.icloud.com/photos/0d4s1WmhRLagP97oAcZ-tYu5Q

I will also buy a patio stone for my arch door. Last year’s door was 24x14x2”, but this year I will put a thinner and slightly smaller door, just to reduce some weight. 24x12x1.5” It should work the same.

I will be buying two horizontal translucent 35 gallon tanks and one or two new translucent Uline 55 gallon tanks.

https://share.icloud.com/photos/014wiSDy9UUVYaJ312qmfG6xg

Super Sapper

08-17-2022, 06:33 AM

Swingpure

08-17-2022, 09:24 AM

For my 12 volt equipment like pumps, I use normal 120 volt ends (cut an extension cord in half). These are much better than any quick connect fittings that I have found and you can use a standard extension cord if you need more length. What I wish I would have done was switch the male/ female ends so that someone can't plug it into an outlet.

Thanks for the tip.

The connector coming from my ATV is a quick connect and they worked well for me last year, so I will stick with them. I did find a quick connect fitting in my supply, that I will solder onto the pump’s wire.

If that does not work well for me, I will look at using your tip.

Gary

Swingpure

08-17-2022, 07:01 PM

I got the vent pipe for the fan. I may shorten it up a little more.

I also picked up the 12x24x1.5 patio stone. It was around supper time when I got home and thought it would just take a couple of minutes to drill the holes. The first hole took me over a half hour to drill. It must have been some super fare concrete. I did not want to drill the second one and further disturb the neighbour’s around suppertime. I will drill the second hole tomorrow for the second handle. It fit perfectly and is likely 30%+ lighter than last year’s door. It cost me under $7 for the door unit.

https://share.icloud.com/photos/0535C7Ns0CsZZCeYk8zCj2XDw

Tomorrow I will solder on the quick connect onto the pump and try the pump with some clean water, to make sure it works.

maple flats

08-18-2022, 03:54 PM

Swingpure

08-18-2022, 07:19 PM

Swingpure

08-18-2022, 07:32 PM

I finished the door. The Concrete drilled a lot quicker in hammer mode, something I avoided yesterday because of the noise and it being supper time. I also attached the quick disconnect wire to the new pump and tested it and it all worked fine.

https://share.icloud.com/photos/09e2ykkFkGC7slW-8FVOuJPfQ

The evaporator is basically done, with the exception of the base stack and pan. Right now I do not have a plan B if ever they were not built in time. The stack I would like before the snow flies, the pan could wait until February. I may just start looking for a plan B, but I am hopeful I will not need it.

Next tasks are getting new barrels, tanks, running string for the new lines and putting a connection pipe in the garage. And seeing if I can extend the expiry dates on the photos.

Swingpure

08-18-2022, 07:47 PM

I found I can get your more recent pic psts, but not the earlier ones. Then I noticed on the ones I did get, that they expire on 9/12/22, must be when I tried earlier, they had expired. Must be your sharing approval expired on those. The more recent ones I can get on my windows computer and on my Android phone. Maybe you can make the link share longer, think about it, if it's an option.

The expiry date is set for 30 days and cannot be changed. If someone wants to see a photo, I can always send a new link, which will last an additional 30 days. Another option would be to share an iCloud album, but that would show all photos and may not lead the viewer to the picture associated with the post.

Swingpure

08-22-2022, 10:32 AM

Today, in light intermittent rain, I walked up the steep slope where I will have two new 3/16” lines. The bush was not overly thick, so the only challenges were stepping over fallen branches or trees. The forest is half Oak and half Maple. The Oak trees were quite large, the Maples for the most part were smaller than I expected and many fell within the 16” to 10” diameter range. There were a few larger ones.

I used twine to map my route and to determine how much line I would need. Walking up, stringing the line up as I went from Maple Tree to Maple tree, it went pretty well as expected and I had about 27 taps on that route. I still had twine left on my 500’ roll so I know one 500’ roll of tubing will do. I will double check that next week, just in case the odd Oak tree initially fooled me. Although on the ground it is easy walking, the tree canopy is full, with Maple and Oak leaves intermixed.

Coming back down, I had hoped to go to the right of the first line, as I wanted to avoid line of sight of the lines, from my friends place, but I just encountered Oak tree after Oak tree, so I had to start going left, and more left, before eventually working my way back to the collection point. My buddy will see some lines in the forest during the winter, but it should not be too bad. This time I ran out of twine and will need another 50 to 75 feet to make it to the collection barrel. I might be able to reduce that the next time I look at my choices.

So I will have two lines between 450 and 550’ long with 25 to 30 taps on each line, on a steep incline, with no flat spots. I will have a steep uninterrupted run to the collection barrels, to have a good “crux”, to power the natural vacuum . The sap should flow well on these lines.

This Saturday I will be buying two brand new 55 gallon drums for collection. They will be translucent in colour so I can see the sap levels, but also so that they do not stand out too much, as they will be about 20’ away from the road.

In the winter I will have to start walking the lines to make a path, because walking up the lines in waist deep snow, up the steep snow, with gear will be challenging. I will also have to dig out a path through the plow row, as it can be high and long.

My brother comes up Saturday and next week we will walk the lines, confirm that the trees I have wrapped around are maple and will mark them so when I go in late October, after deer season, so I do not get mistaken for a deer, I can identify the maple trees, in case the twine lines are down. We will also look to see if there are any better routes.

Swingpure

08-23-2022, 12:11 PM

This morning was a beautiful morning and I thought I would go back up the steep hill where I marked the path for two new lines yesterday. My goal was to see if there was another path for a line to the left (going up) of the first line, to make sure all of the trees I had wrapped the twine around were indeed maples, and third was to mark the trees with yellow and orange construction tape.

I started off going left from the bottom of the hill and I was able to identify a number of maple trees. Sometimes it went away from the original line and sometimes towards it. Near the top it went well away from the original line, which is why I could not spot it from the top looking down. It turned out that there were 28 trees I could tap, some possible double taps. Next week I will run a twine line up there to measure the distance, but when I go by CDL on Saturday, I will buy two more 500’ lines. I had only planned on having two lines, but I guess I will have three at that location.

I marked the other two lines with construction tape, checked to make sure they were all maples and only one wasn’t and counted the trees I would tap and there were 25 on one and 26 on the other, with possible double tap trees. Combined with the taps at the location on or beside my property, there will be 150+ taps.

For the steep hill location, I will be buying two 55 barrels for collection. One will have one line going into it and the other will have two. They will be side by side.

Question: Is it okay to have a line that goes from one barrel to the other near the top of the barrel, that if the first barrel gets full, it can then start to flow into the other barrel?

There could be days, when I will not be able to keep up with the amount of sap I collect with my RO.

Question: Is it okay to mix sap concentrate with raw sap in the divided pan? (My assumption is yes, that it would just take longer to boil)

I have not used a divided pan before, but my impression is that it is just a continuous process and that near the end of the day if you have more sap then you are willing to boil that day, that I just stop adding wood near the end, cover it when it has cooled down a little and start over the next day.

Is that a correct assumption?

Thanks

Pdiamond

08-23-2022, 08:46 PM

Swingpure

08-23-2022, 09:36 PM

You are correct about the shutting down process, but you won't want to cover it up until it stops steaming and make sure there are no coals in the fire. The other thing I use to do would be to add more than enough sap to the pan so I knew it would not boil off. kind of screwed the gradient for a while. Thought I would let you know last year was my first year using the 3/16 tubing and I put in just 8 taps as a trial. I had a 55 gallon barrel for those. I had one really good run day, and those 8 taps filled that barrel. You may want to plan on checking more than once a day on those 25 to 30 taps

Thanks. I will definitely wait for the sap to cool down before putting the lid on.

Last year the locals told me we had a very slow year. I was sort of redeemed by the high sugar content in my sap. I had about 25 taps going into each of three barrels. The best I ever did was 25 gallons in one of the barrels. The whole spring I never had a giant flow day. My buddy about half hour south of me had his barrels overflowing a few times, but he also had more taps, going into his.

I think one thing that might have slowed my flow is I had my taps too high up on the trees about 7’ high. My drops were 3 feet long and even though my lines were about 4 feet high, I put the drops up fully extended. This year they will be closer to 5.5’.

I will be pumping out the collection barrels in the morning and if need be before it gets dark.

Swingpure

08-27-2022, 08:30 PM

Today was supposed to be the day I picked up the two 55 gallon barrels and more supplies from CDL, but I picked up a paddle board first and it was much larger than I expected and I could not see a safe way to carry the paddle board and the two barrels with my tonneau cover and bed extender. I will try getting them in two weeks.

On the way back home, the plan was to stop at CDL and pick up a 1000 feet of tubing and a few more fittings and some bottles. I decided to call ahead just in case, and sure enough this time of year, they are closed on the weekend.

The only maple thing I was able to accomplish is pick up more twine to mark out the 3rd line.

Early this week I will pick up two 35 gallon horizontal tanks, one I will attach to my ATV as a transfer tank and the other I will use as a feeder tank for the float box on the evaporator.

Swingpure

08-28-2022, 03:15 PM

Today I ran the twine up the third line. I will need about 540’ of tubing for that line. I added a few more trees and will be close to 30 taps on that steep line. After deer season, I will run the lines. No hunters should be there as it is close to the road, but you never know,

Tomorrow I will go buy the two 35 gallon horizontal tanks.

Swingpure

08-29-2022, 09:32 PM

Picked up two 35 gallon horizontal food grade tanks today. They were $165 each. That is at least $100 cheaper than CDL. I got them in Trout Creek, in case anyone else in Northern Ontario is looking for them.

I will start to play with how I will attach one to the ATV and the other to my feeder tank stand. Also will get the fittings to go from the tank to garden hose fittings.

https://share.icloud.com/photos/0809QLeiLMPECpYP9EpBSHWfA

The 55 gallon barrels I will get in 12 days.

Pdiamond

08-30-2022, 08:42 PM

Ouch. They certainly don't give those away do they.

Swingpure

08-31-2022, 05:46 AM

Ouch. They certainly don't give those away do they.

The 55 gallon barrels are cheaper. There are places that want $100 more for the same 35 gallon tank.

I have not sold my syrup, but if I was in it for the money, it would take 4 years or more of selling everything I made, to cover my capital expenditures, and that would not pay you for your time. It is certainly a labour of love.

Andy VT

08-31-2022, 11:09 AM

I have not sold my syrup, but if I was in it for the money, it would take 4 years or more of selling everything I made, to cover my capital expenditures, and that would not pay you for your time. It is certainly a labour of love.

That's fine for your first year, but I think you should start selling! You've got way too much invested and way too big at this point to give all away. You must at least be at a quarter-time year-round job at this point for your operation. Charge below market value if you must but the customers will actually enjoy having some skin in the game by having to pay something for the syrup. You won't make money, but you'll lose a lot less.

Swingpure

09-01-2022, 07:58 PM

I had made my sugar shelter dual purpose. We call it the Maple deck. In the summer it is like a gazebo with a big deck and in the spring a shelter for my evaporator. The evaporator is all but built except for the base stack.

Today we had a gathering on it, of 20 people. I called it Waffle and Wings Whursday. (It was supposed to be held yesterday on Wednesday.) We had waffles with my maple syrup to start off, then tons of wings and other foods to finish it off. Several beverages were also consumed.

https://share.icloud.com/photos/00aW00vIkrkdYLxQE495NhMdQ

It was an opportunity to use the space and to share my maple syrup. Next week I will be putting the evaporator wood, on parts of the deck.

maple flats

09-02-2022, 07:09 AM

I began selling in year one and never looked back. In year 1 I started with 27 taps and quickly got up to 79 taps. I only sold syrup at work (at the time I drove school bus after selling my business and not being ready to really retire). I only made just under 11 gal and sold all but 3 gal, all in smaller sizes. By year 2 I'd added over 100 more taps, gone to gravity tubing, built a 16x24 sugarhouse and sold my "half pint" evaporator and bought a used 2x6. From then on, until 2018 I added more taps every year and sold most of what I made, I never went for the bulk sales concept, the only bulk I ever sold was B grade and later on an occasional very dark, but that stopped too as I started making bourbon barrel aged maple syrup, a real winner.
Don't be afraid to sell your syrup, if it's good enough to give to friends it's certainly good enough to sell. Besides, if you sell it, keep all receipts, they can then be claimed.

buckeye gold

09-03-2022, 06:34 AM

I sold from the bigging as well. I have sold for 14 years and now when I am slowing up everything is paid for and I am just going to make for personal needs and give away. I will not be selling anymore. Part of this is because the FDA kept calling and asking questions and wanting to inspect my shack and records, so I just told them I was out of business and shutting down. I was ready anyway, but that pushed me over the edge. I am glad I sold enough to have everything paid for and made some profit.

Swingpure

09-03-2022, 10:14 PM

I likely will sell some next year by word of mouth. I will still give an amount away to close friends and family.

I am getting a little concerned about my pan and base stack being built in time despite being still five months away. I will try and get a certain degree of confidence next week, and may have to start considering plan B for them. I am still hopeful the original plan will happen. Getting a plan B base stack is the most concerning.

Andy VT

09-05-2022, 08:59 PM

I likely will sell some next year by word of mouth. I will still give an amount away to close friends and family.

Yes, me too. Selling actually has been a struggle for me too. My operation is so small I can't quite call it an operation. I could totally afford to give it all away. I decided to sell this year mainly because I ended up thinking it added to the fun both for us and for the "customers" to sort of pretend its a business. But close family and friends and perhaps the closest neighbors and brand new neighbors will always get some for free.

I will always waffle on how much to sell and how much to give, and to whom! Sounds like you have a lot of friends too. That's a good thing.

Swingpure

09-08-2022, 01:11 PM

I have started to resplit firewood and have started to stack it around the evaporator. In the picture, some pieces look too large, but many are wrist size or smaller. I have that much more wood to resplit and stack and around the back and partially on the other side, all under cover of the roof. As we get closer to snow, I will cover the wood with poly.

https://share.icloud.com/photos/082xAh0l9-hIaYa2uKHXqTJew

Saturday I pick up two 55 gallon drums from U-line. This coming month I will be marking a few more trees, running some 3/16 lines, making about 85 drops.

I am assured by the person making my pan, float box and base stack that they will be finished prior to the start of the season. I had hoped to have the base stack before the snow flies, so I did not have to go up on the roof during winter, but that will not happen.

Pdiamond

09-08-2022, 06:59 PM

Gary, it is okay to have a few pieces of wood larger than wrist size. You can put that on top of the the other wood once it is going well.

Swingpure

09-10-2022, 03:41 PM

Picked up my two 55 gallon drums from Uline today.
https://share.icloud.com/photos/0c8p7mtjA8QHovoaihttKyEJA

Tomorrow or Monday, I will finish re splitting the firewood and stack it around the perimeter of the evaporator. During the start of the boiling season it will act, at least initially as a wind and snow break.

Yesterday I marked some trees. I am changing the location of one of my collection barrels, so I may string some 3/16 line to the new location.

Swingpure

09-11-2022, 03:47 PM

I basically surrounded my evaporated today with about 5 face cords of wood. It will be barely enough wood if I run all of the sap through the RO. I may have around 150 taps this year, which is a little less than 50% more than last year. I will have to have another few face cords stashed away somewhere, accessible in the spring. I do have more room on the maple deck, but it will not be under cover of the roof.

https://share.icloud.com/photos/0ceS3aVSFDJoeeTev1yIIhauA

Pdiamond

09-11-2022, 07:50 PM

You could always stack some more on what you have up there by the looks of the picture.

Andy VT

09-11-2022, 08:54 PM

The setup I grew up next to was pretty cool I think. Maybe it was the norm back in the day. It was a wood-fired, no RO, 1800 taps on buckets operation when I was a kid (it was 1980's just before upgrading to tubing and RO... basically a 1960 operation that I got to experience in 1983). The sugarhouse was essentially 3 sided, with the finishing-pan end being the open end. That end had wood stacked up in several rows all the way to the ceiling. So the firewood formed the 4th wall until the very end of the season.
You essentially have a zero-sided sugarhouse. You could actually have 4 walls with your wood stacks if you go higher! Maybe you could even put some windows in! Guess you'll want to make sure the stack is very very stable though if you go high...…… a tipover on guests could definitely be unfortunate....

Swingpure

09-12-2022, 12:17 AM

Thanks for the tips.

I could go a little higher, but I cannot make a complete wall as my wife likes to be able to look through the structure and see some trees on the other side. As Andy VT mentioned if I stack it too high, a tip over would be unfortunate.

I actually have a lot of room on the deck to the left of the evaporator and can simply tarp that pile of wood. I figure I need at least three and maybe four more facecords of wrist sized wood to feel totally comfortable going into the boiling season. The RO I made last year has never been tested and I doubt it can keep up on the heavy flow days. I can see having a mix of concentrated sap and raw sap on the heavy flow days. I also have to consider the RO not working well at all, at least until it is proven.

My current RO setup has one 400 gpd membrane and two 150 gpd membranes. I am also debating replacing the two 150 gpd membranes with a second 400 gpd membrane, figuring that would increase my daily output of concentrated sap. I could have 150+ taps this year on lines and 9 buckets for the grandkids to see.

This year my feed barrel for the RO will be above the RO pump. I will have a pipe that goes through the garage and I will pump from the outside of the garage, through the pipe and into the feed barrel.

Swingpure

09-12-2022, 11:32 AM

This morning I added the feed tank support (pic has the feed tank on it) and more supports for a third row of wood. I think by adding a foot more of wood on each of the existing rows and adding the third row on the right, I will come close to having 2.5 to 3 additional face cords of wood. That should do me. If I run out I have my wood that I use for my fireplace, that i can borrow, or I can simply stop boiling.

https://share.icloud.com/photos/04fCmx3pCk-1hLtInenrXO6Kg

I also purchased fittings today.

A fitting from the Feed tank to a RV hose, with a shutoff valve and a fitting from the RV hose to a future float box.
A fitting from the transfer tank to a RV hose with a shut off valve
A fitting from a RV hose to the 3/8 tubing going into the RO pump.

Brien

09-12-2022, 08:07 PM

I'm not sure if you can simply stop boiling, I think you have sap running through your veins!

This morning I added the feed tank support (pic has the feed tank on it) and more supports for a third row of wood. I think by adding a foot more of wood on each of the existing rows and adding the third row on the right, I will come close to having 2.5 to 3 additional face cords of wood. That should do me. If I run out I have my wood that I use for my fireplace, that i can borrow, or I can simply stop boiling.

https://share.icloud.com/photos/04fCmx3pCk-1hLtInenrXO6Kg

I also purchased fittings today.

A fitting from the Feed tank to a RV hose, with a shutoff valve and a fitting from the RV hose to a future float box.
A fitting from the transfer tank to a RV hose with a shut off valve
A fitting from a RV hose to the 3/8 tubing going into the RO pump.

nhdog

09-13-2022, 12:13 PM

swingpure, looking at your picture of your feed tank i am wondering how you will work around the piping going to your evap. looks might be in the way off to the side like that.

Swingpure

09-13-2022, 01:54 PM

swingpure, looking at your picture of your feed tank i am wondering how you will work around the piping going to your evap. looks might be in the way off to the side like that.

Good question and the answer is, I don’t think I ever need to go to that side while I am boiling. It is a question I asked my pan builder. He likes building pans with four channels. I wondered about a three channel pan, with the float box at the rear left, which he said he could build. Ultimately I went with what he normally does.

The float box will be on the left side, but other than filling up the feed tank and opening the valve on it, I should not have to do anything else on the left side. The draw off valve is on the front right side where I have lots of room to work.

Having said all this, I have never used a divided pan before. As far as I know the sap enters the pan from the float box in the front left corner, goes up and down the four channels and is ready to be pulled off on the front right corner.

If I have to go to the left side, let’s say to turn the pan, when it is not boiling, it will be easy to disconnect the RV hose from the turnoff valve.

I guess in the worse case if I had to go there, I could crawl under it.

I still have to learn after how many gallons do you need to turn the pan, to remove nitre, how often a day will the temperature of the sap get to where you need to pull it off.

I have to learn about sweetening the pan, but do not quite understand if you have enough sap to start off with, why you would not automatically be pulling off some syrup the first day. One would think the sap in the final channel would have boiled down to syrup, just like a flat pan.

I will have to learn when I am turning the pan to help get rid of nitre, how to draw off the boiling sap into separate pails and to put them back in the pan in the same order, to try and maintain the gradient.

I did split some more wood today. I possibly might have Covid and ran out of energy part way through the splitting, so I did not get as much split as planned.

I also purchased on Kijiji (Cdn version of Craigslist), a section of double wall pipe that will go through my ceiling. My ceiling is only the thickness of the metal roof. This will allow me to determine the correct size of the hole in the roof and will also allow me to find a redneck way of supporting it. It allows me to buy a section of 8” pipe to come out of it, with a storm collar. Doing this now is a lot better than January or February, when I expect to get my base stack and pan.

DRoseum

09-13-2022, 05:14 PM

Swingpure

09-13-2022, 07:02 PM

Gary - sounds like your channels run the length of the evaporator. You might want to consider setting the feed tank behind your exhaust stack and setting your pan so that your float box and drawoff are at the back and interchangeable so you don't have to physically lift and flip the pan to reverse flow. You just reverse flow by changing your float box/draw off valves and where your hose goes in and draw off from opposite side. Sanitary fittings work wonderful for this purpose. You can make plugs or use valves to hold syrup in pan and actually reverse flow mid boil if niter build up is really being problematic. You might want to do this during LONG boils. Do you have round holes between channels? I made stainless handled silicone stopper plugs to hold syrup in middle channel of my pan and only drain off the side ones to swap them and maintain as much gradient as possible when reversing flow.

You will want to see how your rig boils as well because you want your drawoff to be as close to the hottest parts as possible where you get strong/consistent boils. A lot of times this isn't near the door or the back of the arch. This is why many pan setups have cross flow front pans with draw off near the middle where the temperature profile is hottest.

Lots to think about. Thanks for the suggestions.

The channels do run the entire length of the pan.
https://share.icloud.com/photos/0b4MBexw2jnxipuxOalWb3SyQ

https://share.icloud.com/photos/0caghgTtHooMfVt3_gRji03lw

Last year when I had the five restaurant pans, with #1 being at the door and #5 at the stack, the pans were hottest in the following order: 2, 1, 3, 4, 5. Now this year my evaporator will be slightly different with the base stack, 8” stove pipe, vs 6”, and a 2x4 divided pan. I am hoping I will have better heat flow towards the stack, but I believe it will still be my coolest area.

I think I am missing something. I can still swap the float box and draw off valve at the front, by just having a longer hose from the feed tank. To my knowledge to remove the float box and draw off valve, I will have to draw off almost all of the sap, in which case moving the pan should not be overly difficult.

Saying all of this I have zero experience with the divided pan, so I could be totally wrong.

I am a little pot committed on where the feed tank will be this year, because all of the wood already stacked in the rear. The feed tank being up front where it is will also be easier to fill.

Swingpure

09-14-2022, 01:41 PM

I was exposed to someone who unknowingly had Covid and I finally tested positive today. That will slow things up for the next few days. I have had all four shots, so hopefully it remains like cold like symptoms. I did relocate the two ends of two lines to their new collection location today and I put up one four tap line.

Last night during a peaceful moment I had an epiphany, I simply do not have the wood resources for 150 taps on a yearly basis, let alone this year. I am not going to put up some of the lines I had up last year. I will keep the 80 taps on the steep hill and keep the two lines that I left up from last year that total about 25 taps. I will add one more short line and have a few four tap lines. I will likely end up with about 125 taps give or take.

DrTimPerkins

09-14-2022, 03:12 PM

Swingpure

09-14-2022, 08:07 PM

Hope your symptoms are mild and best wishes for a speedy and full recovery.

Thanks, my better half is already better and I will be re splitting wood tomorrow, so all should be good.

Pdiamond

09-14-2022, 08:08 PM

Gary, make sure you rest and relax so that it doesn't become anything worse. You'll be in my prayers. Get better real soon.

Swingpure

09-15-2022, 06:07 PM

Today I finished splitting the last of the seasoned wood designated for the evaporator. Added some to the top of the existing rows, then started a third row on the right. I put some tarps over the piles as we will be having four days in a row where it will rain. I will work on a more permanent way of securing the tarps prior to the first snow fall.

I calculate that I have 6.5 face cords of wood. I also have 5 large garbage bins full of pine/spruce construction scraps. Last year to boil 930 gallons of sap, non RO’d, took me 5 face cords, or 186 gallons (704 L) of sap per face cord.

Last year I ended up with a litre of syrup per tap, which is what you would expect, but I only reached that because of the high sugar content of my sap and that I was given 100 gallons of free sap. Locals said it was a very slow year for our area.

If I do have 130 taps and I actually collected 40 L of sap per tree, that would be 5,200 L of sap. I hope this year’s evaporator will be more efficient, partially because of the base stack and 8” stove pipe and partially because of the divided pan and especially the float box. For easy math and perhaps too optimistically, let’s say I now boil 200 gallons (757 L) per face cord. Also let’s say with my pine scraps, I have 7 face cords of wood. That means I could boil approximately 5300 L of sap. If I RO all of the sap I could maybe double that. Hmmmm, as I type this, maybe I could handle more taps, if I really did get the evaporator efficiency improvement I hope for.

Coming up, is putting the stainless steel pipe through the garage wall, so I can pump from my collection barrel directly into the raw Sap RO barrel in the garage. Also coming up the next sunny warm day is pressure washing all of the collection barrels, so they are totally clean going into winter.

I found today, that I am starting to think of winter as purely the pre sap flowing season.

https://share.icloud.com/photos/0bdaWj_FCCW6U_Gtir1N7zFJA
https://share.icloud.com/photos/038foUdF-iFTW4rvdfOOM0J9w
https://share.icloud.com/photos/0c3kxLHxHDPmZKgaSvXU71Y2Q

Swingpure

09-16-2022, 05:11 PM

I put the stainless steel pipe through the garage wall today. Pretty straightforward after moving existing items that were on the wall. I have quick disconnects at either end of the pipe to quickly connect the RV hose from the transfer pump to the pipe.

I am back thinking I will have close to 150 taps and in a few days will order a 400 gpd membrane and will have two 400 gpd membranes on my DYI RO. I am not sure how many gallons of concentrate it will produce per hour, but hopefully close to my evaporator boil rate.

Swingpure

09-16-2022, 07:54 PM

Colour me happy. I let the guy whose property I will be running three new lines down on his steep hill, know what I have been doing and will be doing. I told him about the ribbons on the maple trees, the twine I ran to determine the path of the tubing and to figure out how much tubing I will need and let him know I would run the tubing after deer season, and he wished me good luck. So I guess it is for real.

Monday I will go to CDL and buy another 1000 feet of tubing and in my spare time, I will make about 100 new drops, for the new lines and some additions to two old lines. I am retiring one old line (1 year old) and was debating making some drops out of that line. If I don’t watch it I could end up with 170+ taps. The RO better work.

Edit: Deer season is longer than I thought, I will time it to put up the lines a week or so before the first snow.

Swingpure

09-17-2022, 04:53 PM

Marked some new trees and ran some twine to map out the new line that will go in that area. My one neighbour has left for the season, so I will run the two lines that run partially on his property, sometime this week. My other neighbour will likely leave for the season after the Canadian Thanksgiving on Oct 12th, and I will put up the single line on his property after that. Last year I had two lines on his property. So I have reduced that line, but have added trees to the one line.

Right now it is shaping up like 165 to 170 taps. Next spring after the season I will be saying I have to downsize.

Pdiamond

09-18-2022, 07:31 PM

Or you'll be saying. " well, if I am going to keep doing this it's time for a real arch and raised flue pan and syrup pan setup."

Swingpure

09-18-2022, 08:39 PM

I installed one line today, one of the ones from last year and added five additional taps to the line. I still have to add some of the drops to it. It is a relatively low tap line with 11 taps on it. It does have a decent drop on it and should produce well.

Tomorrow I go to CDL and pick up 1000 feet of tubing and a few other things. Tuesday, I will add another line from last year, with no new tap additions. I may have time to add another short line from last year as well.

I read the new NAMSPM about RO’s. I will have to raise my raw sap RO barrel a little. I am finding all of the cleaning practices of the membranes, that I read you are supposed to do in the manual, with constant acid and soap washes during the actual season, more than I expected, and if true, it makes me wonder if it is worth it. I was prepared for the permeate washes, but not sure if I have time to do the others. I will talk about this with CDL tomorrow.

Maybe I am misunderstanding what is required.

Swingpure

09-18-2022, 09:09 PM

Or you'll be saying. " well, if I am going to keep doing this it's time for a real arch and raised flue pan and syrup pan setup."

Lol, the base stack and pan I will be getting, will be able to go on a real evaporator, but I can never see freeing up $4000+ for getting a real evaporator. (Despite nickel and diming myself to well past that)

DrTimPerkins

09-19-2022, 09:38 AM

...I am finding all of the cleaning practices of the membranes, that I read you are supposed to do in the manual, with constant acid and soap washes during the actual season, more than I expected, and if true, it makes me wonder if it is worth it.

It's like your mother asked when you washed your hands...."did you use soap?" A permeate rinse will help somewhat, but when membrane performance starts to drop, only a soap wash will help. If you keep concentrating and only rinse, eventually your membranes will be so clogged they will barely work and soap washing may not restore performance. Typically you won't have to do more than rinses and soap washes to keep flow rates up. We've had citric acid in our cabinet for a decade and only used had to use it once. It really isn't that difficult. The key thing to keep in mind (other than the fact that they are strong chemicals) is that you want to do a good rinse AFTER the wash to flush all the soap out, and you want to do a good soap wash and rinse before storing at the end of the season.

An hour to soap wash and rinse is well worth the huge reduction in boiling time (50% or more) and the time spent cutting and handling wood.

Swingpure

09-19-2022, 11:08 AM

It's like your mother asked when you washed your hands...."did you use soap?" A permeate rinse will help somewhat, but when membrane performance starts to drop, only a soap wash will help. If you keep concentrating and only rinse, eventually your membranes will be so clogged they will barely work and soap washing may not restore performance. Typically you won't have to do more than rinses and soap washes to keep flow rates up. We've had citric acid in our cabinet for a decade and only used had to use it once. It really isn't that difficult. The key thing to keep in mind (other than the fact that they are strong chemicals) is that you want to do a good rinse AFTER the wash to flush all the soap out, and you want to do a good soap wash and rinse before storing at the end of the season.

An hour to soap wash and rinse is well worth the huge reduction in boiling time (50% or more) and the time spent cutting and handling wood.

Thanks, lol, I calmed down a little as I understand things better. I still have to learn exactly how to do it, but I guess rinse, wash, rinse. I will have a separate bucket to draw from with the soap solution. I also realized while driving to CDL that I will have to have a quick disconnect to switch from my raw sap barrel, to my permeate barrel and my soap barrel.

My raw sap barrel is above my pump, but at the moment my permeate barrel is not. Hopefully the pump can draw the permeate from the top of the barrel.

I will order the 400 gpd membrane in the next day or so. I just want to spread out the expenditures. Today, I purchased 1000 feet of 3/16 tubing, some fittings, some RO soap, some filters for my dyi vacuum filter and a new tension hook. My other tension hook fell out of my hoodie pocket yesterday, or I placed them down on the ground and forgot where. I was interrupted with a phone call, then a visitor and then when I looked for them, I could not find, them. I searched for them and could not find them along the tubing path. Now that I have purchased a new set, I am sure I will find the old set.

This afternoon, once things dry up a little, I will add the drops to the line I added yesterday and may start putting down another line.

Pdiamond

09-19-2022, 09:08 PM

It's only a real expenditure once, after that it's all down - hill from there.

DrTimPerkins

09-20-2022, 07:59 AM

It's only a real expenditure once, after that it's all down - hill from there.

In theory.... Doesn't seem to be that way in maple however...there's always something to be had. :lol:

Swingpure

09-20-2022, 03:15 PM

I put up a 13 tap line today, a 5 tap line and a new 4 tap line, (that had buckets on it last year). Last year I had about 75 taps on lines on my property and adjacent properties, this year there will be about 80. There will also be 80+ new ones on the steep hill I am allowed to tap this year.

I cannot put up any more lines until October 13. Now we move to barrel final rinsing.

Pdiamond

09-20-2022, 07:37 PM

So true Dr. Tim so true

Swingpure

09-21-2022, 05:27 PM

My main job today was reclaiming the inside of the garage, but along the way, I put fittings where they should be, I added taps to two 35 gallon barrels and one 55 gallon barrel, finished off the pipe going through the garage wall and had the hose from it go into the 55 gallon RO raw sap barrel and also added the fittings from the RO barrel tap to the RO pump.

I guess the barrel should be higher, but it is above the pump and when full the sap will be much higher.

https://share.icloud.com/photos/07fRoOFIGNLdl_sS-7u0Nh4OA

https://share.icloud.com/photos/0acC6uUhLz0ZHv9WN4_FRV9EA

Swingpure

09-26-2022, 07:59 PM

I just ordered an 1100 Amarine bilge pump, to pump from my 35 gallon transfer tank with a small opening at the top, into my RO barrels in the garage. I can open the garage door, drive in, close the door and then using one of my boats two deep cycle batteries, can power the pump and get the sap into the RO barrels. If I don’t use it there, I can use it to pump from the 35 gallon transfer tank filled with concentrate, into the feed tank. I also have the pump I used last year and use both at the same time, to half the time, if time is a big factor.

I am just going through the various scenarios in my head, of transferring sap from three collection barrels into the 35 gallon transfer tank on the ATV into the RO raw sap barrel(s) in the garage. They will also be a fourth collection barrel that I will pump direct into the garage. I have no idea how fast the two 400 gpd membranes will create the concentrate, but I would like to run the RO sometime after midnight, again first thing in the morning after I have removed the concentrate and if there is enough sap, run it one more time. On a high sap day, I could produce at least 75 gallons of concentrate. The concentrate from the first RO would go into the feed tank. While the RO is working on the second batch, I would go out and collect more sap, then start boiling. At two different points during the boil, immediately after a draw off and adding wood, I would race to the garage, seconds away and refill the transfer tank with concentrate and refill the feed tank.

My guess is with the feed tank, float box and just after a draw off, I should have a few moments where I am not standing over the evaporator.

After the boil, I would go out and collect sap again depending on how it is running. If the sap is not running that hard, I could maybe skip the morning collection.

I don’t know if I am correct in saying this, but 10 gallons of concentrate should boil twice as fast as 10 gallons of raw sap? If true, if my evaporator boiled at 10 gph, the. I should be able to boil 20 gallons of concentrate in an hour.

Is this true?

Thanks

wobbletop

09-26-2022, 09:18 PM

I don’t know if I am correct in saying this, but 10 gallons of concentrate should boil twice as fast as 10 gallons of raw sap? If true, if my evaporator boiled at 10 gph, the. I should be able to boil 20 gallons of concentrate in an hour.

Is this true?

Thanks

I don't think that's the way it works. With RO you've already removed a lot of the water, so it won't take as long to boil, but your boil rate should be the same. Going from 2% to 6% you've already removed about 75% of the water, and that's where the time savings is.

Swingpure

09-26-2022, 09:24 PM

I don't think that's the way it works. With RO you've already removed a lot of the water, so it won't take as long to boil, but your boil rate should be the same. Going from 2% to 6% you've already removed about 75% of the water, and that's where the time savings is.

Lol, this is what confuses me. With less water to evaporate off, doesn’t it take less time to boil it?

Z/MAN

09-26-2022, 09:47 PM

Swingpure

09-26-2022, 09:57 PM

Swingpure, I have that same 1100 pump. It works great (it will surprise you) and you don't need the deep cycle batteries. It will work just fine off the ATV battery. Use the correct size hose for the pump, don't downsize it. I clamped my pump to a 4-foot length of PVC pipe and zip tied the hose to that pipe and it drops down into a 55 gal drum or small opening tank very easily. I also installed a quick connect plug on my ATV and the end of the pumps power wire. Putting an inline on-off switch at the top of the PVC pipe makes the whole job much easier.

Thanks for the tips. I have the quick connect on the ATV already, and I will order another quick connect switch. I have one already in my transfer pump setup.

I was thinking the deep cycle battery, as my ATV would be off inside the garage, and I was worried about draining the ATV battery.

Super Sapper

09-27-2022, 06:24 AM

Lol, this is what confuses me. With less water to evaporate off, doesn’t it take less time to boil it?

Your boil rate is the amount of water that you evaporate off in a given amount of time. If you have 40 gallons of sap you will need to evaporate off 39 gallons of water. At 10 gph it would take 3.9 hours. If you ran that 2% through an RO to 6% you will have 13.3 gallons of concentrate and will need 1.3 hours to boil to syrup. (numbers are just for an example, you actually need 43.5 gallons at 2%)

Andy VT

09-27-2022, 06:24 AM

Lol, this is what confuses me. With less water to evaporate off, doesn’t it take less time to boil it?

It takes less time to boil with RO because you have less of it. If you have 1000 gallons raw sap to boil for the whole season, well, you have to boil off 975 gallons. If you can boil 10 gallons per hour, you're looking at 97.5 hours of boiling.

If you RO to bring that 1000 gallons down to 500 gallons, now you only have to boil 475 gallons. It is still 10 gallons per hour. But fewer gallons. Now you will boil for 47.5 hours.

But if its the same evaporator that does 10 gallons per hour, its 10 gallons per hour no matter what. In fact, if anything, I think the more concentrated would be slightly slower than raw sap because the boiling point is higher.... but basically same.

Swingpure

09-27-2022, 08:24 AM

Thanks for the answers. I do get that the savings in time, is the fact that you might have 50 gallons of concentrate to boil instead of 100 gallons of raw sap, saving half the time and half the wood to boil. There is a little part of my brain that still thinks a solution that has less water in it should boiled quicker than a solution with more water, but I will let that thought disappear and that 10 gallons of concentrate will take me an hour to boil, at a boil rate of 10 gph.

I am interested to see what my boil rate actually will be this year. I took on the advice given to me last year and I will now have a base stack, a straight 8” stove pipe, instead of a 6” stove pipe with a 90° elbow in it, a better pan (but not really an increase in sq inch surface area size), a bigger fire box, more seasoned and smaller wood and perhaps especially the float box, that will keep my sap level at 2” or less. (Often last year the sap level in my steam pans might be 3 to 5” deep). I also learnt last year how much wood to put in at one time and that less can be more.

Last year the locals said it was a slow year for our immediate area. I never had to deal with high volumes of sap on any given day, which likely allowed me to keep my head above water. I think only on one day did I reach 1 gallon of sap per tree a day. This coming year if I get a few days of 2 gallons per day, I will be a very busy man. Last year the taps on buckets did not do well, and I think I hurt myself with the taps on lines having the taps unconsciously at the 6 foot level of the trunk. This year they will be lower around the 4.5 to 5’ mark.

Also this year, I will have 80+ taps on what is ideal conditions for 3/16 line, with a steep slope the entire length of the 500’+ line, with a long uninterrupted steep run to the barrels. This should create pretty good natural vacuum, and it will all be with new line and new fittings.

Now I just need the new pan, float box and base stack to arrive and away we go. I guess also wait for March for the sap to flow.

Andy VT

09-27-2022, 10:01 AM

Thanks for the answers. I do get that the savings in time, is the fact that you might have 50 gallons of concentrate to boil instead of 100 gallons of raw sap, saving half the time and half the wood to boil. There is a little part of my brain that still thinks a solution that has less water in it should boiled quicker than a solution with more water, but I will let that thought disappear and that 10 gallons of concentrate will take me an hour to boil, at a boil rate of 10 gph.

I think I figured out what is tripping you up... and you are onto something. You only have to boil away what isn't syrup. So if you have 10 gallons of sap at 2%, you only have to boil away 9.75 gallons of that, at 10gph. If you have 10 gallons of sap at 4%, you only have to boil away 9.5 gallons of that, at 10gph. If you have 10 gallons of sap at 8%, you only have to boil away 9.0 gallons of that, at 10gph. So, yes, there is less to boil... but as you can see, for practical estimating purposes, you can still round to 10 gallons for easy math unless you're doing super high brix RO. But technically if you like doing math you could subtract the resultant syrup from your gallons to find out how much you actually have to evaporate.

But I also suspect that this slight difference will be eaten away, at least partially, by the higher boiling point of the higher concentration, so might as well still stick to calling 10 gallons of sap 10 gallons on your 10gph setup and still keep the math easy.

DrTimPerkins

09-28-2022, 07:34 AM

I don’t know if I am correct in saying this, but 10 gallons of concentrate should boil twice as fast as 10 gallons of raw sap? If true, if my evaporator boiled at 10 gph, the. I should be able to boil 20 gallons of concentrate in an hour.

As others have said, no, this is not correct. The evaporation rate of your rig will remain pretty much close to the same whether you're boiling raw sap or concentrate.

Evaporation (boiling) rate is the amount of water exiting the liquid via evaporation as steam during processing. It is dependent upon the size of the evaporator and the firing rate.

Draw-off rate is the amount of syrup (or near syrup) exiting the pan through the draw-off.

Processing rate is the sum of evaporation rate + draw-off rate.

More about this in Chapter 7 of the new Third Edition of the North American Maple Syrup Producers Manual.

DrTimPerkins

09-28-2022, 07:39 AM

So if you have 10 gallons of sap at 2%, you only have to boil away 9.75 gallons of that, at 10gph. If you have 10 gallons of sap at 4%, you only have to boil away 9.5 gallons of that, at 10gph. If you have 10 gallons of sap at 8%, you only have to boil away 9.0 gallons of that, at 10gph. So, yes, there is less to boil... but as you can see, for practical estimating purposes, you can still round to 10 gallons for easy math unless you're doing super high brix RO. But technically if you like doing math you could subtract the resultant syrup from your gallons to find out how much you actually have to evaporate.

Evaporation rate will remain the same...processing rate (evaporation rate + draw-off rate) will increase somewhat with increasing RO concentration due to the higher draw-off rate.

Swingpure

10-15-2022, 05:15 PM

Getting closer to running four lines. The weather has been and will be very rainy. I had 20 to 30 face cords of wood delivered in logs for the first time and it has been hard finding dry periods of time to Buck it up and split it. I had wanted to get it all out of the way before stringing the lines, but that is looking less likely.

Today because it rained all day, I took the opportunity of making 86 drops for the new lines, mostly for the three new lines. I am not positive how many taps I will need, it will depend on how many double tap trees I will have and then decide to tap double. I know I have approximately 78 different trees to tap.

Weather here is cooler than normal and we even have some freezing temperatures and minor snowfall in the forecast, but none of the snow will stay. It will warm up again next Friday. It is a reminder that I need to finish doing any of the little things to get ready for the maple season.

I still have to buy the 400 gpd filter, a second transfer pump and maybe a second RO pump.

I hope to get my new pan, base stack, float box and pan cover in December/January.

I gained access to some additional seasoned wood and will add at least a half face cord to my supply surrounding the evaporator.

Pdiamond

10-15-2022, 09:10 PM

Swingpure

10-15-2022, 10:10 PM

Gary, I got it made this year. My wife let me get a wood processor and I received a military discount and did not have to pay any taxes or shipping cost. It came from Florida to Michigan. Can't wait to use it.

Well I am jealous. That would be very sweet.

My Buddy has a tractor that makes his work so much easier, with the lifting and moving of the wood.

I just need it to stop raining.

Pdiamond

10-16-2022, 07:28 PM

It's been raining here too. Now we have a big cold front dropping down from Canada, starting tonight with a rain/snow mix thru Wednesday. By the weekend it's going to be mid 60's and sunny.

Swingpure

10-21-2022, 08:25 PM

Tomorrow I will run the three new lines on the perfect slope. After stringing them out, I will add the approximately 80 drops. That may last until Sunday to finish. I then have a fourth line to install, mostly an old one from last year, but I will add several more taps to the start of it.

By the end of Sunday, I will know how many taps I will have for 2023. It should be around 175 to 180, with three collection areas and 4 collection barrels.

Then I start splitting 7 face cords of wood for 2024 evaporating. I just finished splitting 14 face cords for winter 23/24 and a little bit for 24/25. (Without a wood processor lol)

Swingpure

10-22-2022, 05:36 PM

I strung the three lines this morning with the help of two friends. Before I went alone to connect the drops to the line, my neighbour shared with a picture of a large black bear on his trail cam, which is in the same area of where I am running the lines. I kept an eye out for it. Things were going well installing the drops, until I could not find my tension hooks. I had just used them on the previous tree. I searched where I thought I put them down and then quadruple checked where I walked. After not finding after looking for almost a half hour, I drove home and got a finger rake. I eventually found them, just barely, about three feet away from where I thought I had left them, buried in the leaves. I may paint them a fluorescent colour. I finished off the one line, but lost my momentum and was losing the light, so I will try and finish the other two lines tomorrow and install a fourth line.

https://share.icloud.com/photos/030d9suD6q5Ez-X8uNiT8BL5g

https://share.icloud.com/photos/08dpBN4Ws6R1UyW1_L16noOPA

The slope on the runs is excellent and there are good good steep runs at the end to power the tubes. The sap should race out of these lines. My transfer tank on my ATV holds 35 gallons, I wish I had like a 100 gallon one for my truck.

Pdiamond

10-22-2022, 09:53 PM

The runs look pretty good, Gary. That bear looks even better. I would put him down and have fresh bear liver and onions that night for dinner. It's one of those meals where you can sit back with a nice cold Canadian brew and say it doesn't get much better than this.

Swingpure

10-23-2022, 06:58 PM

Unless the bear is chewing at my ankle, he is safe around me. I did pack some bear bangers and bear spray, in the extremely unlikely chance he came around.

I had planned today to get started at 8:30 am, but woke up at 5 and did not fall asleep again until after 6:30. I did not wake up again until 11:10. I raced out with no breakfast or lunch, and got in a good rhythm and finished connecting the drops on the two remaining drops. I added one more drop, so there are 74 drops on the three lines (21, 30, 23). The lines are approximately 510’, 550’, 550’ long. I meant to check the altitude at the peak, but it is a big drop from the top peak to the bottom. I definitely will have to break a path in the snow a few times prior to the start of the maple season. It is hard enough walking up there now.

I also strung a fourth line and got it connected just as it turned so dark I could not see very well. I have about three drops to add to that line tomorrow, but it will have 21 drops.

Tomorrow I will check out two lines I left up for the summer, and I will get a good count of my total drops. I will also add seasoned wood to my evaporator wood pile, to total out to about 7 face cords beside the evaporator. If the RO is working, that should be enough.

Swingpure

10-24-2022, 06:16 PM

Today I put the final drops on the fourth line and also checked two other lines and made a repair to each of them. I also changed how the three lines connect at the bottom.

I measured with an altitude app the drop from the peak of the 3 lines to the collection area and it showed it being an 80 foot drop. It seems like more.

All totaled I have 150 taps. Tap count per line:

Collection area 1 (50 taps)
1 - 12
2 - 10
3 - 19
4 - 5
5 - 4

Collection area 2 (26 taps)
6 - 13
7 - 9
8 - 4

Collection area 3 (2 barrels) (steep hill) (74 taps)
9 - 21
10 - 30
11 - 23

https://share.icloud.com/photos/073WU4bA6vWzhRvjTg4v7WsYw

https://share.icloud.com/photos/0b4Kohj1xPy0X_8CIeZ-QqhrA

https://share.icloud.com/photos/0dbuItY6c4fQ1mJnAyNUVUq4w

I also some additional wood to the evaporator pile.

Tomorrow I start splitting for evaporator year 2024.

Pdiamond

10-24-2022, 07:54 PM

Gary. your lines look really good, how did you manage to keep them so tight.

Swingpure

10-24-2022, 09:03 PM

Gary. your lines look really good, how did you manage to keep them so tight.

I had help this time with someone pulling, as I was unraveling and guiding the lines.

Also when I add the drops with my tension cord, I take out any slack. That is really what makes the difference.

Pdiamond

10-25-2022, 07:06 PM

Maybe that is the difference between yours and mine. I use the tension hooks, but I was all by myself.

Swingpure

10-25-2022, 11:08 PM

Maybe that is the difference between yours and mine. I use the tension hooks, but I was all by myself.

When I pull the lines together, and cut it, I see how much one line overlaps the other and I cut the difference out.

When I piled the wood around my evaporator, I added more wood to the top of the row than I originally planned, and was fearful it would tip.

https://share.icloud.com/photos/0beQPh4hRf5ZHd5ySmAtQQbQw

Today the top of the row behind the evaporator fell over, but fortunately it fell away from the evaporator. It made me think if it fell forward after I have my base stack installed, it would be bad.

I made a second row of wood on the left and dramatically reduced the height of the back row and the row on the left. The row on the right is three rows deep and looks to be very solid.

I also started splitting wood for 2024 season. As everyone knows, splitting the wood into wrist sized pieces vs home firewood takes twice as long. I should have it all completed come the weekend.

Swingpure

10-29-2022, 08:05 PM

Today I finished splitting my 2024 evaporator wood. Next tasks are to give the collection barrels a rinse after sitting all summer.

I still haven’t done anything to my RO. I could stand pat with the 400 and two 150 membranes. I still do not understand how they work as far as flow. I still don’t get why the two 150’s at the end would not slow down flow from the 400. There is a piece in the puzzle I am missing. Maybe it is not about flow and instead about how much water is removed.

I still have to wire up the bilge pump and get the hose for it. Eventually I will buy a second transfer pump and maybe a second RO pump as back ups. Getting all of the lines up and finishing splitting the wood has taken the pressure off me and now I can do things at a more leisurely pace.

(I have 47 face cords of split wood on my property now and another five face cords of cut logs and a few more face cords of logs yet to be bucked up.)

Pdiamond

10-30-2022, 06:21 PM

How did you accumulate so much wood, did you buy a truck load of logs?

Swingpure

10-30-2022, 08:30 PM

How did you accumulate so much wood, did you buy a truck load of logs?

For the first time ever I bought 20+ face cords of wood. I already had 32 facecords on hand. With the 20+ facecords, I bucked it all up and split 15.5 face cords and have approximately 400 fireplace length logs ready to split in the spring.

Load of the 20 facecords of logs:
https://share.icloud.com/photos/0fa98ojIUQq2VbsIjTTs5pnzg

Winter 22/23 Wood:
https://share.icloud.com/photos/077TW4HPTu8Jv3pWSQNU9E0tw

Winter 23/24 Wood:
https://share.icloud.com/photos/0df3bu-fPcbQl3kBnKLCwPCiQ

Evaporator Wood
https://share.icloud.com/photos/0abbP5aIvbvoljbAaNVGOR1BQ

Winter 24/25 Wood:
https://share.icloud.com/photos/070-ehUuBk8ef1QDD7-xSp2RQ

One neighbour wants me to drop two tall birch trees and I can have the wood and another neighbour just came up and wants me to cut a number of their trees to manage their forest and I can have their wood. So I think I am good up to 24/25 or 25/26. Now to live that long.

Pdiamond

10-31-2022, 05:59 PM

Gary, do you heat your home strictly with wood or do you have a secondary source of heat. I heat our home with propane, and I have a pellet stove in the basement. When I have the pellet stove going, I leave the basement door open, and the heat will naturally flow upstairs. Keeps the upstirs around 72-75 degrees except for the bedrooms in the back of the house. They get cool.

Swingpure

10-31-2022, 09:13 PM

We also have electric baseboard heat, but heat 95%+ from our fireplace insert. We use 13-15 facecords of wood a year to heat our place.

Our house (originally a cottage) is called a panabode style home with interlocking cedar sort of logs, with no insulation other then the “logs” themselves. They wood walls actually does a decent job of insulation. When we bought it we replaced all of the windows with better windows and added a roof on top of the existing roof so we could add R40 worth of insulation in the ceiling as opposed to the one inch thick white styrofoam insulation that was in the original ceiling.

Our bunkie and detached garage are heated strictly by electricity.

Swingpure

11-01-2022, 02:29 PM

It continues to be great fall weather. I am sitting outside typing this on my rear deck and I can see some of my sap lines all set and ready to go. I can’t wait for the season to start. Looks like cooler weather will arrive in a week’s time.

Today I ordered my backup transfer pump.

In a couple weeks I will order the RO pump that Dan has talked about: Coronwater 800 gpd RO Pump 8900K RO Water Filter Booster, and my Aquatec will become my backup.

I may yet order a second 400 gpd membrane, but I still need to understand the system better. It still confuses me how adding my two 150 membranes after the two 400 gpd membranes does not slow how much Concentrate I get per hour.

I have to admit never doing the RO before, it is causing me the most angst. I know it will be a giant time and wood saver, but it just seems so much simpler to just add the raw sap to the pan and boil it.

I guess after I do it a few times, it will make sense and seem easier to do. None of the local sugar makers I know use an RO.

Pdiamond

11-01-2022, 06:41 PM

Gary you will have to let me know how the RO works for you. I have never used one in my operation.

Swingpure

11-01-2022, 09:26 PM

Gary you will have to let me know how the RO works for you. I have never used one in my operation.

It will be a steep learning curve, but I have watched a lot of videos and read a lot. The big unknown for me is how fast it will process 50 gallons of sap. That will determine when I start the first 50 gallons. I can see some days trying to run 150 gallons of sap through it. That should produce 75 gallons of concentrate. I will likely do 50 gallons starting after midnight, then 50 gallons when I wake up. If I have 100 gallons or less of sap I will start boiling then. If not I will wait until the 2nd 50 is done, then start the third and also start boiling.

The other big unknown at one point I have to go get the last batch. Not ever having used a divided pan, I think after I have drained off the correct temperature sap/syrup and have added fresh firewood, I should have five minutes of unattended time with the evaporator, to go get the last batch.

I will flush the RO after the last batch and after I have finished boiling. I have bought the soap. I still have to get the bucket I will use to supply the permeate and soap and then permeate to do the flushing, washing and flushing.. I wonder if a 16 gallon pail is enough?

My base stack when it arrives is supposed to be 8 feet tall, then I will have a 3 foot double wall pipe through the ceiling and then will add a 2’ pipe with a storm collar on it. Today I was looking how I will support the double wall pipe and I have some ideas.

DRoseum

11-02-2022, 04:52 AM

Swingpure

11-02-2022, 09:03 AM

I had written a post with a lot of RO questions and I came to the realization although it will take me more boil time and wood, the whole process will be much more simpler and less complicated if I do not RO. I am a one man operation without a proper sugar house and it is just far more simpler to gather my sap, put it into a barrel beside my head tank and pump up the sap as required. This way after collecting sap in the morning, I can start to boil right away, I don’t have to stay up late to turn on the RO and wake up early to start a fresh batch and after a day of boiling, I don’t have to spend time flushing all of the membranes. (I also collect late afternoon after the boil)

I feel at peace with the decision. Keeping it simple is best for me and my early operation. My evaporator should be far more efficient this year, and I do not mind putting in the time to boil and when I run out of wood, I run out of wood, but I have a lot of wood, at least this year I do. Maybe one day I will get an RO bucket with all of the instructions and tips.

Now instead of spending another $400+ bucks on a new pump and membranes and barrel, I can sell what I built maybe for $300.

It just takes out so much uncertainty for me and as I said I feel at peace now. For other people and their operations, the RO may be the perfect decision for them.

I think this year just learning how to be good with a divided pan and increased taps will be a good enough learning curve.

Sorry for asking all of the RO questions the last year, but it was not in vain, it helped me to get to this decision.

Anyone in Ontario want to buy a DYI brand new RO? Lol. I just posted in on Facebook Marketplace.

Andy VT

11-02-2022, 09:35 AM

I must say, I enjoy reading you thinking out loud but there is definitely a certain whiplash aspect to it! :lol:
I suppose if you can sell your stuff for most of what you paid, nothing really lost, but may I suggest an in-between option?
It seems you were stressed by the thought that the system must be balanced and absolutely all sap must be R.O.'d before entering the pan.
But clearly you are prepared to boil with no RO at all for this year.
So... what if you used your system once this year? Twice? Just to get to know it a bit? Maybe you'll find you even use it more. Or not. Doesn't matter.
Any amount you use it will be a bit less boiling, and a bit more learning. Or, even use it zero times but you've got a head start on your 2024 system in that case, and plenty of time to find deals on any remaining pieces you need.

I haven't R.O.'d yet, and I think I'm not going to get to it this year, but I've decided I'll be easing into it when I do. I won't try to stress about all or nothing or getting the balance just right. I'll RO what I can RO. And it will probably be the bucket, for avoiding re-inventing any wheels and the product support, and just to throw him a bone for all the free videos and documentation I've already read and watched.

On the flip side, if you've realized you've got the wrong stuff for what you want to do, might as well cut bait. The point is more that things don't have to be all or nothing first time out.

wobbletop

11-02-2022, 11:06 AM

Swingpure

11-02-2022, 02:25 PM

I must say, I enjoy reading you thinking out loud but there is definitely a certain whiplash aspect to it! :lol:

Lol, I can see how one may feel that way.

I suppose if you can sell your stuff for most of what you paid, nothing really lost, but may I suggest an in-between option?
It seems you were stressed by the thought that the system must be balanced and absolutely all sap must be R.O.'d before entering the pan.
But clearly you are prepared to boil with no RO at all for this year.
So... what if you used your system once this year? Twice? Just to get to know it a bit? Maybe you'll find you even use it more. Or not. Doesn't matter.
Any amount you use it will be a bit less boiling, and a bit more learning. Or, even use it zero times but you've got a head start on your 2024 system in that case, and plenty of time to find deals on any remaining pieces you need.

What you say makes a lot of sense to me. I can give it a try. Keep it on a small scale. I do have a collection barrel right outside the garage and I have put a hole through my garage with a pipe through it, so that I can pump directly from the collection barrel into the RO raw sap barrel, so I can try and just RO what I get from the collection barrel, which based on last year, was 10 to 20 gallons each day. It should be more this year as I have 24 more taps running into it. I can start it when I get up to collect and use the concentrate part way through the day.

I would not have to flush as much and can use my one existing permeate barrel for the flush and have two other containers for the waste flush. If it doesn’t work, I have not lost anything and it does work and I get comfortable with it, maybe I could process more sap through the RO.

I will not buy another pump or any additional membranes, the 400 and two 150’s will be good enough. I have everything already set up to start tomorrow if I had to.

Thanks for the great suggestion.

Swingpure

11-02-2022, 02:31 PM

You do you, but I don't think anyone (very few) have stopped using RO once they see the benefits.

Why not run RO at the same time as you are boiling? The RO output can feed your pan or sap tank directly.

I will give ROing a try as Andy suggested and if it pans out, and if it works well, I will see if I can somehow rig something next year to feed the concentrate to my feed tank. It is not a good fit the way I am set up now.

Z/MAN

11-02-2022, 08:45 PM

Swingpure, I have been thinking right along that you might be biting off too much at once. Start the season with your new divided pan, learn everything you need to know to run it smooth and be comfortable with it. Then, and only then start playing with your RO. A little at a time and you will figure it out. There is no rule that says you have to RO all your sap. You could do small amounts and mix the concentrate with your raw sap until you are comfortable running it full time. Nobody will crucify you for it. Running the RO sounds a lot more complicated then it really is and learning it (part time) will help. You have jumped into this craziness with both feet and everything else you could find. Slow down, take a deep breath, and enjoy all the new equipment you purchased. Little steps will still get you there!

Andy VT

11-02-2022, 08:55 PM

Yep, what Z/man said! Glad to hear you'll keep what you've bought. You'll know when you're ready to try it out; no need to sweat it. Maybe you'll want to up your permeate storage (not sure) but that's all! Every gallon of permeate you end up making will be a gallon not to boil. Maybe you'll make a lot, maybe a little, maybe none; it's all good! And report all your results of course because I'm going to get into RO for 2024.

Super Sapper

11-03-2022, 06:24 AM

To start with, I would just recycle your concentrate back into your sap tank. You can start it whenever you want, several hours before or just when you start up the evaporator. There is a lot of emphasis on getting a certain concentrate flow or concentrate level when you are just trying to reduce your evaporator time. I will say that you will be hooked on watching all that water come off before evaporation.

If you have a head tank, run an overflow line from it to your storage tank. You can then just run RO without worrying about matching flow with the evaporator. Just run the RO to take off the maximum amount of permeate and not how high of brix in your concentrate. On some this allows the RO to run a faster flow and keeps the membrane cleaner and thus takes off more permeate.

Swingpure

11-03-2022, 04:10 PM

Thank you for all of the suggestions. I do feel better that I will only RO when time permits. I think I can manage ROing the sap from the one collection barrel, but if it really complicates things, I can stop at any time.

I do agree that the key for me this year is to learn how to work with the divided pan and if I can do that and if I have some time to RO, I will. I realize there is so much I do not know about divided pans and do not yet know the questions to ask about it.

Today I flushed out all of my collection and storage barrels and other storage vessels. They were in remarkably clean shape.

I also played with how the transfer tank would sit on my ATV. It actually took me a few different setups to find one I liked. I will have to build a ramp so that my ATV sits higher in relation to my barrels, so that I just have to open the tank valve and it unloads into the barrel.

I also decided that I will unload some raw sap into 5 gallon pails. I wasn’t going to do that, but I did find last year that each morning I could take a chunk of ice out of the pails, nature’s RO. It will just mean more cleanup time, as I rinsed out each pail at the end of each day.

https://share.icloud.com/photos/01cHAfpJWz-hWmt7E2pmGJSNw

https://share.icloud.com/photos/02a3XyMHSSJhx7oI1ubmVFihw

Z/MAN

11-03-2022, 09:55 PM

You will offload your atv tank much quicker if you use your pump. (No ramps) Stick it in the tank and you will empty that tank in minutes.

Swingpure

11-04-2022, 11:47 AM

You will offload your atv tank much quicker if you use your pump. (No ramps) Stick it in the tank and you will empty that tank in minutes.

You are 100% correct. I actually had purchased a 1100 gph (18 gpm) bilge pump that would fit in the narrow opening at the top of the tank. Essentially it would take 2 minutes to empty the entire 35 gallon tank.

I tested draining 5 gallons from the 15 to 10 gallon mark and it took 4 minutes 25 seconds, to drain 5 gallons. So a little less than a half hour to drain the entire tank. A no brainer. I ordered a spare bilge pump just for back up.

This bilge pump needs an 1 1/8” id hose which I found out is a rare cat in these parts, so I ordered one on Amazon. Not to give Amazon a plug, but when you live away from the big centers, Amazon can fill the gap of things you want, sometimes with next day delivery on certain items.

https://share.icloud.com/photos/035QGzeUoeDFdrRk_zfy86zYA

nhdog

11-05-2022, 06:36 AM

i can't help but wounder if your new bilge pump and hose are food safe ? your are going to be making a lot of syrup for just your home use alone so i expect you will be selling or giving a lot away. just food for thought.

Swingpure

11-05-2022, 07:56 AM

The hose is food safe for sure, and the bilge pump is made of food safe plastic. I used to fixate on food safe pumps, but then I discovered that a number of people on the site use a number of transfer pumps, both large and small, that are not officially food safe.

The brand new bilge pump type, is being used by others on this site with no issues.

None of my syrup will end up on store shelves, however my grandkids will be eating it and I trust that the syrup will be just fine.

All of my collection barrels, pails and tanks are all officially food safe, everything from the pan onwards is stainless steel and I wash much of it, on a daily basis.

johnallin

11-05-2022, 08:52 PM

.. I used to fixate on food safe pumps, but then I discovered that a number of people on the site use a number of transfer pumps, both large and small, that are not officially food safe...[/COLOR]

That doesn't make it right.

Swingpure

11-06-2022, 03:16 PM

I made myself some drill bit depth stops today out of dowel. I am not sure how well they will stand up, so I made a few.

https://share.icloud.com/photos/092Wa-yjRuTFEva-7rDIHJpVw

I also received some maple related Amazon deliveries today, including a digital thermometer, because the one last year was done at the end of the season and an in-line on/off switch with quick connect ends.

bigschuss

11-08-2022, 04:49 AM

I used to fixate on food safe pumps, but then I discovered that a number of people on the site use a number of transfer pumps, both large and small, that are not officially food safe.

If I am hearing you correctly...everything "upstream" of the evaporator and everything "downstream" is all food safe. By your own admission you used to "fixate" on food safe pumps. But because other guys are using cheap Chinese Harbor Freight pumps of questionable pedigree that are not food safe, you're OK also using them?

Just my 2 cents, do your grandkids a favor and find a food safe pump. They are easy to find and really not that much.

BoerBoel

11-08-2022, 06:48 AM

I made myself some drill bit depth stops today out of dowel. I am not sure how well they will stand up, so I made a few.
You could also use some tubing instead of the dowel.

eustis22

11-08-2022, 07:04 AM

Until this day, what I didn't know, was that there WERE such a thing as food safe pumps (excluding sump pumps). Anyone got an example? I procured stainless water transfer pumps.

Swingpure

11-08-2022, 12:00 PM

You could also use some tubing instead of the dowel.

Lol, I tried finding friends that had old 5/16 tubing, just a couple of inches of it and no luck. You can’t buy just a couple of inches, and it was $10 to buy a small roll of it. I may end up doing that if the dowel does not work. I had the dowel on hand.

Swingpure

11-08-2022, 12:23 PM

If I am hearing you correctly...everything "upstream" of the evaporator and everything "downstream" is all food safe. By your own admission you used to "fixate" on food safe pumps. But because other guys are using cheap Chinese Harbor Freight pumps of questionable pedigree that are not food safe, you're OK also using them?

Just my 2 cents, do your grandkids a favor and find a food safe pump. They are easy to find and really not that much.

My first season (last year), I was going to buy a shurflo food grade pump, but for Christmas, I was given as a present a different pump that was not officially food grade. It was a generous gift. I spent time researching all of the components that the sap would touch and they were all food grade. I used it last season with no issues, but it was slow.

I discovered that a friend who has been making syrup for many years and at a greater volume than me had been using a sump pump to transfer his sap. It does it dry quickly. The components that will touch the sap are all stainless steel. He has used it for years with no issues. It is not officially food grade.

The bilge pump that started this conversation was also recommended to me. Everything that the sap is food grade plastic and the sap would race through this pump. The people that have used it have had no issues with it.

I am a by the book kind of guy in almost everything I do, so not having a food grade pump is different for me, but I do trust the people that have recommended them to me.

Other than Shurflo pumps what other choices are there?

Swingpure

11-08-2022, 02:14 PM

Andy VT started another thread specifically on the food grade pump issue and I think that is a good place to discuss that particular topic and I will be gladly discuss and learn on that thread.

Earlier this year I lost my tension hooks and could not find them and later with a new pair I lost them, but eventually found them in the leaf cover just a few feet away from where I thought imhad placed them. Today a month or so later I went with a leaf blower trying to find the original pair. I started off where I thought I might have left them and no luck, I then blew leaves where I walked and still no luck. I will eventually find them, but it might not be until next summer.

After I temporarily lost the second temporary tension hooks, I tied bright orange and yellow construction ribbons/tape to it so it would stand out in the leaf litter. I used different colours for each end of the tension hook to make it easy to grab the end you want to hook up first.

Pdiamond

11-08-2022, 06:49 PM

I heard on the weather report today that you may be expecting some snow in the next several days once it leaves the Dakotas. Sounds like you may get a significant amount too, good luck.

Swingpure

11-08-2022, 08:27 PM

I heard on the weather report today that you may be expecting some snow in the next several days once it leaves the Dakotas. Sounds like you may get a significant amount too, good luck.

Our forecast keeps changing. At the moment the snow will be north of us, but this morning it was forecasting about six inches. We have had an amazing October and November. It has really saved on the firewood. I will have bonus left over for the evaporator if need be, although it will not be split wrist sized.
https://share.icloud.com/photos/002fVI28p0vam6TVoK7ExHx1Q

Nice eclipse here this morning!
https://share.icloud.com/photos/072ueGAe24q60KWAWs4WxRdrA

DrTimPerkins

11-09-2022, 12:47 PM

Swingpure

11-09-2022, 04:36 PM

The winter side of fall arrives here this Saturday. Today I was trying to do the last of the things I can do now to be ready for the maple season when it starts. Here it is usually near the beginning of March. Today I was putting away my collection barrels and other storage tanks and vessels.

Including the capacity of the collection barrels, I could store up to 600 gallons of sap and 150 gallons of permeate. I will never have to hold 600 gallons at any one time, but it is good to know if I get a couple big flow days, I can handle it.

Last year I don’t think I had even a single high flow day, although as I have mentioned before, locals said it was a poor year.

As we move into winter, I am hopeful that my divided pan, float box, base stack, base stack plate, 36” double wall pipe and pan lid arrives in January or before. Once the base stack arrives, we will cut the hole in the metal roof and make the supports for the double wall pipe.

I am not sure if the plugs for the divided pan comes with the pan. (As I understand it, when you are finished for the night, you plug off the openings at the end of the divided runs to help maintain the gradient.)

I can see most of my lines from my yard and today I could almost see he sap flowing down the lines. Four months to go!

As homework this winter, I will watch every divided pan video I can.

Pdiamond

11-09-2022, 05:20 PM

Gary your weekend forecast is almost identical to ours.

Swingpure

11-09-2022, 05:56 PM

Gary your weekend forecast is almost identical to ours.

Be safe driving! I got my winter tires on yesterday.

I just see each day of winter, as one day closer to sap flowing.

It has been a good fall, and as I mentioned before, I did not use as much firewood as normal.

Swingpure

11-09-2022, 11:38 PM

These are my lines, some are on my lot, some are on my adjacent neighbour’s lots, and some about 6 lots away from me. As you can there are a lot of trees.

The first pic has a drop of about 30 to 35’, the second pic has a drop of about 80’. The lines on the second pic should be racing with sap if I tap them correctly.

https://share.icloud.com/photos/072Y3ICC_S4CBRXKw-m1-a6bg

https://share.icloud.com/photos/0bc-OqhkDdRz9IdBj-fEeriLg

berkshires

11-10-2022, 09:39 AM

Preliminary research suggests that warm falls and dry summers are associated to some degree with lower sugar content in the spring. Trees have to maintain their living tissues later in the fall when the temps are above freezing. In doing so they use up some of their stored sugars for respiration when it is warm. Since the leaves are gone, they can't make more to replenish the lost sugar.

Fortunately, the correlation is not real strong, and there are multiple interacting factors to consider. Making a prediction from this is difficult, and liable to be incorrect. The science is just not mature enough yet.

This is fascinating - I never knew this. I bet it helps explain something I've noticed - that the further north producers seem to have sweeter sap. Two posts down, Swingpure talks about how winter is arriving in his neck of the woods. That's far from true for me, and far far far from true further south.

Thanks for sharing!

Gabe

Swingpure

11-10-2022, 10:44 AM

I walked my 3 new lines today on the steep hill. The main purpose was to remove as many tripping hazards as I could so they would not be a problem when I am either walking or snow shoeing in the snow.

It was a good thing I did, because besides removing the tripping hazards, I found four spots where branches had come down in a recent wind storm we had, that had lowered the line, but fortunately did not break it.

I also made some slight height adjustments on some of the lines, just to improve the slopes of the lines.

I plan to walk the lines at least once a month and hopefully twice a month, mostly to break a trail in the snow, but also to check the lines.

Swingpure

11-11-2022, 01:06 PM

16 gallons for a flush, wash, or rinse is not enough of ypu are putting 100 gallons thru it per day. I would recommend keeping all of your permeate for these purposes. I have two 60 gallon barrels for permeate from 100 trees on 3/16 vacuum. Having all the permeate you can for flush, wash, rinse purposes is a good idea.

A few questions:

For the first flush prior to processing the sap, I will be using filtered and UV’d lake water.
How many gallons of that water will I need to do a proper initial flush?
Will all of that be waste after it has flushed the membranes?

Let’s say the first time I run the RO is with 50 gallons of sap, in the perfect world, it will produce 25 gallons of permeate.
Is that enough for the flush?
Is that permeate waste after the flush or can it use it again for another flush?

I guess after the flush, you have to wash it with a combination of either permeate and soap or water and soap. Is that all waste? How many gallons of soap and water/permeate is need for the soap wash?

Thanks

DRoseum

11-12-2022, 08:06 PM

Swingpure

11-12-2022, 11:24 PM

eustis22

11-13-2022, 06:10 AM

Where am I going to get 50 gallons of water pure enough for flushing?

DRoseum

11-13-2022, 01:40 PM

You can use tap water. If using city water with chlorine in it, be sure to use an active carbon block 5 micron pre-filter for that initial flush.

eustis22

11-14-2022, 11:13 AM

thanks...my city water does indeed have chlorine in it. I'll pick up some of those filters

Swingpure

11-14-2022, 06:06 PM

You can use tap water. If using city water with chlorine in it, be sure to use an active carbon block 5 micron pre-filter for that initial flush.

There is no chlorine in my water. I will buy a 50’ extension to my water hose so I can reach my RO.

Thanks

Gary

Swingpure

11-14-2022, 07:02 PM

Do no reuse flush water/ permeate. Once you use it, discard of it.

Use MOST of your permeate each day for flushing. It will really help keep your system performing best. If you get 25, use it. If you get 50, use it. Even when needle valve is wide open on a flush cycle, you will get some permeate flowing out. I run that permeate trickle right back into permeate tank i am drawing from to prolong the flush.

Ro soap is NAOH. It's a base solution and there are instructions for how to mix it up before use. Goggles and gloves are a must. Most indicate a PH around 11 (check membrane limits as well). RO bucket and mattatock madness site have good cleaning instructions. Basically recirc that for a while and then flush liberally with as much permeate as you can, ensuring your PH returns to neutral. You won't need to wash daily if you are running your RO with low recovery rates on the membranes (recovery rate per membrane = permeate out / inlet flow) and are flushing regularly with liberal amounts of permeate. Probably a couple washes per season and one at year end is good depending how much sap you run thru it etc.

Initial rinse of new membranes requires a fair amount of water. Be sure to have a pre-filter in your housing. The membrane manufacturers typically specify how long to flush them for when brand new. Most residential membranes say 1 hr. With 3 membranes (400gpd + 2 x 150gpds) in series running 1 hr --> 700gpd/24hrs = 30 gallons...I'd recommend 50 gal or more.

Again thanks.

I was in the garage tonight going through my head what I need to do all this. I will need my 55 gallon raw sap barrel, my 55 gallon concentrate barrel, my 55 gallon permeate barrel, my 40 gallon barrel with a rain barrel spigot and hose for the flushed fluids and another one to hold the soap solution, I have a 16 gallon barrel and a 27 gallon gallon barrel for that.
My soap says ph11 for daily washes and ph12 for mid season and end of the season washes and says to flush 200 gallons of water/permeate after the soap wash.

I will have a rain barrel spigot on the 40 gallon waste water barrel and will connect a dedicated 50’ hose to it and have it drain while I am flushing in the 200 gallons into it.

I still have to read how to do the wash. Unfortunately the instructions sheets that came with my membranes were thrown out with the packaging.

I have my raw sap barrel raised above the Aquatec pump, but I will have to trust that the Aquatec pump will be able to draw the permeate up from the permeate barrel for flushing. I could raise the permeate barrel, but then the output of the RO system would have to be able pump up the permeate to the barrel.

Swingpure

11-15-2022, 03:47 PM

Gary your weekend forecast is almost identical to ours.
There is no snow on the ground at the moment, but we will have a little overnight. Right now in our forecast we could receive 50 cms (20”) of snow between Thursday and Monday. I doubt it, but it will be a dramatic change from the current snow free landscape.

I think you have a decent amount of snow heading your way as well.

When I see the snow, it will be the start of the pre season for the maple run. Approximately 112 days to go before the sap flows here.

https://share.icloud.com/photos/0411BUY23vp3IDuDM36FCISIg

DRoseum

11-15-2022, 04:05 PM

A 5 gallon bucket is all you need for soap wash. Just recirculate for an hour and then let it sit a bit. Put all 3 hoses in that bucket when recirculating.

As for flush water... keep the first gallon or 2 and check sugar content. Might be worth throwing into your boil.. the rest, don't worry about a tank, just dispose of it down the drain or out on the ground. You will want to neutralize soap wash solution and that rinse water to safely dispose of it.

Swingpure

11-15-2022, 05:32 PM

Pdiamond

11-15-2022, 06:02 PM

We've got about 2

We've got about 2 inches so far. According to the weather report it's supposed to snow all week.

Pdiamond

11-15-2022, 06:06 PM

Gary. we've got about 2 inches so far. The weather report says we are supposed to have snow all week long and into the weekend.

DRoseum

11-15-2022, 07:23 PM

Thanks

Do you check the ph with ph paper?

Do you neutralize it with water or some other solution?

Thanks

Gary

Yep. Citric acid works to nuetralize it and can also be used for acid wash of RO. Granular citric acid is readily available amazon.

Swingpure

11-15-2022, 07:57 PM

Yep. Citric acid works to nuetralize it and can also be used for acid wash of RO. Granular citric acid is readily available amazon.

Thanks, I just ordered both on Amazon.

needmoremaples

11-15-2022, 09:10 PM

I've neutralized with vinegar. Don't run that thru the RO tho. I do washes at home in my garage. I use a 10 gallon stainless pot and I put it on a burner to help warm it up. My soap is chemically set to stop where I need it at 11 mph (I think) circulate that til it hits 113F and I leave it soak for as long as I can. Push water into the Ro til my tank is full, neutralize and dispose of the soap water. Then flush the rest in the same manner for 20 min. I've never used citric to neutralize but do have some now as I did my first soap\acid\soap wash. I like the dowel idea on the drill bit. Tubing on the drill bit gets all mashed up and goes deeper than you want it to. Haven't tried a drill stop.

Swingpure

11-15-2022, 09:58 PM

I like the dowel idea on the drill bit. Tubing on the drill bit gets all mashed up and goes deeper than you want it to. Haven't tried a drill stop.

Thanks. I am hoping the dowel works, but I did buy an inexpensive drill stop set on Amazon as back up. I might try both with a regular drill bit on a piece of wood, prior to tapping.

Last year was my first year tapping. Although it went well, the tapping auger was so aggressive, it was hard to stop at the right depth. My hope is the dowel or stopper will allow me to go quickly in and out, a nice smooth round hole.

needmoremaples

11-15-2022, 11:44 PM

Tapping bits are effortless and drive themselves in. Highly recommended over any other bit. Last for 1000's of tap holes.

Swingpure

11-16-2022, 03:02 AM

Tapping bits are effortless and drive themselves in. Highly recommended over any other bit. Last for 1000's of tap holes.
Thanks

I do have tapping bits, they did cut effortlessly, sometimes they felt that they kept wanting to pull you deeper. As I got more experienced, I would brace myself a little better to stop that.

bigschuss

11-16-2022, 04:51 AM

Thanks

I do have tapping bits, they did cut effortlessly, sometimes they felt that they kept wanting to pull you deeper. As I got more experienced, I would brace myself a little better to stop that.

Not sure what tapping bits you bought, but you should not have to brace yourself? My 8 year little girl can easily tap our trees by herself. No dowel. No stop...roughly 2" deep. The fact that your bit is pulling itself in to the point that you need to brace yourself and make a stop for the bit to prevent this...??? Something doesn't sound right.

DrTimPerkins

11-16-2022, 07:36 AM

,, but I did buy an inexpensive drill stop set on Amazon as back up.

A very cheap and effective bit stop is a piece of 5/16" tubing cut to the proper length and slipped over the drill bit, leaving 2" of bit exposed for tapping.

Swingpure

11-16-2022, 01:21 PM

Not sure what tapping bits you bought, but you should not have to brace yourself? My 8 year little girl can easily tap our trees by herself. No dowel. No stop...roughly 2" deep. The fact that your bit is pulling itself in to the point that you need to brace yourself and make a stop for the bit to prevent this...??? Something doesn't sound right.

The bits were purchased from CDL. Sometimes they did want to “pull” themselves in. That was my experience on some of the trees. There is no issue going into the tree, just stopping it at the right spot on occasion was an issue.

With my stops, whether it be the dowel, or a drill stop, or 5/16 tubing, it will not be an issue this upcoming season. 111 days to go.

I envy you that you started maple syruping while your kids are still young and can participate.

bigschuss

11-16-2022, 05:59 PM

The bits were purchased from CDL. Sometimes they did want to “pull” themselves in. That was my experience on some of the trees. There is no issue going into the tree, just stopping it at the right spot on occasion was an issue.

With my stops, whether it be the dowel, or a drill stop, or 5/16 tubing, it will not be an issue this upcoming season. 111 days to go.

I envy you that you started maple syruping while your kids are still young and can participate.

Ah, I see. Yes, those stops should work fine.

And yes...it won't be long now. Just got all of my evaporator firewood stacked last weekend. Felt god to get that done.

Swingpure

11-17-2022, 07:16 PM

Gary. we've got about 2 inches so far. The weather report says we are supposed to have snow all week long and into the weekend.

The radar shows you getting hit with Lake Effect Snow right now. We will get hit early this morning and really get hit on Saturday. It will give me an early opportunity to start practicing with my snow shoes which I will need to use in March.

Pdiamond

11-18-2022, 07:40 PM

Swingpure

11-18-2022, 09:29 PM

I never thought I would need snowshoes, got an extra set. I would say we currently have about 8 inches on the ground right now, give or take and they are calling for an additional 8 to 10 inches starting tomorrow around noon. Really early in the year for us to get a snowstorm like this. The Farmers Almanac was spot on for November. I am not looking forward to January and February, except it brings me closer to syrup season.

Wow.

So far we have just had a dusting of snow. The streamers have been missing us, but I think we will get our share tomorrow.

As long as the Great Lakes are warm and not ice covered and you get the right wind, we will get lake effect snow. 109 days until the sap flows.

I am so fearful of going up the long steep hill in waist deep snow, I am actually going to be training so I have the stamina and strength to do it. As mentioned before, I hope to break a trail twice a month, so come tapping day it will not be overly difficult to make it up the hill.

Personally my experience with snow shoes in deep snow, when you are the one breaking the trail, is it is still a lot of work as well.

Good luck dealing with your snow and take your time. Two people in Buffalo died from heart attacks clearing their snow.

Swingpure

11-19-2022, 09:10 AM

The attached photo shows some of the snow that has fallen, but also the maple tree that hangs onto some of it leaves right through winter. I have two collection barrels sitting in place, my other barrels are all in covered storage. You can see one of the clay coloured barrels on the left.

We had only received about 9 cms (3.5”) by 9 am, but we are now directly in line with a steamer and will have a lot more by the time this ends.

https://share.icloud.com/photos/015zBuF-qWoiEgXWpB29UbyEA

Pdiamond

11-19-2022, 08:26 PM

I have a tractor for clearing snow and luckily most of my wood's trails are from previously logged trails that just need to be kept open. Easy to get to my tree's to hang more lines.

Swingpure

11-19-2022, 10:28 PM

I have a tractor for clearing snow and luckily most of my wood's trails are from previously logged trails that just need to be kept open. Easy to get to my tree's to hang more lines.

Yeah, a tractor will not make it up my lines.
https://share.icloud.com/photos/04e6-fUhyyvIu-GcqhS_ve3CA

If I had won the two billion dollar powerball the other day, I definitely would have got a tractor.

108 days to go.

The biggest thing on my mind now in the maple world is anticipating my pan, pan cover, float box, base stack and base stack plate and 36” double wall 8” pipe, being made and ready for pickup. Hopefully sometime in December I will know a build date and hopefully I will get them before February 1.

OrangeAgain

11-20-2022, 06:01 AM

I have a tractor for clearing snow and luckily most of my wood's trails are from previously logged trails that just need to be kept open. Easy to get to my tree's to hang more lines.

We have 2.5 miles of logging / cross-country ski trails in our forest. The Craftsbury Outdoor Center maintains our trails. All of my taps are within 50' of a trail = excellent access.

Pdiamond

11-20-2022, 06:02 PM

Swingpure

11-20-2022, 07:51 PM

Our snow total for 16 thru 20th was 18 inches give or take 2 inches depending on where you measure. How about you Gary are you getting hit now with snow?

OrangeAgain, isn't it nice having those trails to work with.

We ended up with 11”, we were lucky. We might get a couple more tonight. Orchard Park (Buffalo) got 77”. There are a number of places in Ontario that got a whole lot more than we did.

The one lucky thing I have with my collections areas, is one is 20 feet from the road, the other is 7 feet from my driveway and the third, I can pump directly from the collection barrel to my RO barrel.

Putting the taps in and then looking for any potential leaks will be the fun thing, but collection will be easy. If I wanted to part with about $500, I could have got a 100 gallon horizontal tank that would fit nicely in the bed of my Ranger, that would save a few trips back and forth from my far collection site. I did not want to part with $500 and will make a few 2 minute trips with my 35 gallon tank on my ATV.

Pdiamond

11-21-2022, 07:32 PM

Swingpure

11-21-2022, 10:37 PM

I am pretty lucky in that respect. I picked up a SS tank 200 gallon, a little more if I squeeze, on a trailer with hard rubber tires. I can go anywhere, and they don't go flat or get squishy. I only paid $125.00 for that at an auction. It has been a big help. Now that I have the 400gallon milk tank, I think I should be all set for storage.

That was a good find and a great price on the 200 gallon SS tank.

I will be having 150 taps on line, but I also will have a few taps with buckets right near my house for any grandkids or friends who visit, to check. I am not sure how many I will have yet. I did not get a lot of sap from them last year. I might tap them early so they could me an indicator for when the sap is starting to run. I will not really need the sap from them. I might also to use them to experiment with different diameter trees.

Swingpure

11-22-2022, 01:13 PM

I walked around today to look at what I could put on pails, mostly to have something for Grandkids or friends to check while they are up.

It is somehow in my nature, to keep adding them. There are 6 that are very close and very easy to check. There are another 5 taps that I could run on a short line to another pail that is close by and easy to get to.

Then there are 4 more that are a short walk away. Then there are 7 more that I could put on a short line that would feed into a 16 gallon barrel, that would be close to the 4.

As mentioned on an earlier post, I would likely tap these a few days ahead of the real lines, to help determine when the sap starts to run. I also mentioned the pail taps under performed last year, but it was apparently a slow year, but I do not expect a lot of sap volumes whether it be 6 taps or 22 taps.

DRoseum

11-22-2022, 03:13 PM

Gary - this is all normal, at least for all of us on this forum! None of us can resist tapping a viable maple. What's 22 more?? ;)

Pdiamond

11-22-2022, 07:36 PM

Are your trees all sugar maples and are you hanging actual buckets on the tree or using pails on the ground being fed by a spile connected to tubing.

Swingpure

11-22-2022, 08:50 PM

Are your trees all sugar maples and are you hanging actual buckets on the tree or using pails on the ground being fed by a spile connected to tubing.

All of my trees are Sugar Maples. I will be using pails on the ground fed by a spile with tubing. The exception being is I will connect a few trees with tubing. I will have 7 taps on tubing going into a 16 gallon barrel. 2 sets of 5 taps on tubing going into a 5 gallon pails, unless I can get a couple more 16 gallon barrels and clean them and have them feed into them. And five simple pails with drops.

Dan “enabled” me, so I am going to run down to CDL tomorrow and pick up some more tubing. I also want to buy some defoamer and a new 11/64 drill bit as a spare. The weather the next few days will be above freezing, so a good time to run the three new lines. I guess I have to add the 17 on lines to my lines count and just show five on pails.

I have now research how to use defoamer on a divided pan. It was simple to do with steam pans.

Swingpure

11-22-2022, 10:05 PM

Tonight was the first time I ever saw a commercial on TV for maple syrup. It was quite comical and directed you to this site.

https://maplefromcanada.ca/
And this Facebook link: https://www.facebook.com/PureMaplefromCanada/

I could not find the commercial which I saw on You Tube, which would have made this post more relevant, but did come across this historical moment on YouTube:
https://youtu.be/tdikUhN4gSo

Swingpure

11-22-2022, 10:45 PM

With the search function, I quickly found my answers about defoamer use on a divided pan. My pan will be two feet wide, so two drops where the sap enters the pan, each time I fire up. I may eventually experiment and try to add a little less, as that would be a lot more than I ever used with my five steam pans.

http://mapletrader.com/community/showthread.php?36210-defoamer-where-and-when/page3&highlight=Defoamer+divided+pan

I do have a cinder block evaporator and I do get a decent boil, and we will see in the spring how decent it is, with the new design and base stack on the new divided pan, but it will never be as hot as a professional evaporator, where the stove pipe glows red.

Last year I used defoamer that I bought from CDL and I am planning on buying it again tomorrow.

The cooking oil that we use at our place is avacado oil, I wonder how that would work?

DrTimPerkins

11-23-2022, 07:37 AM

The cooking oil that we use at our place is avacado oil, I wonder how that would work?

Natural oils tend to not work as well as synthetic defoamers, resulting in higher amounts being added to accomplish the same amount of foam reduction. This can cause an oily sheen on top of syrup, as well as off-flavor and odd mouth-feel.

Never heard of anyone trying avocado oil...typically you want to use an oil that has no inherent flavor (neutral), which is why safflower oil is commonly used as a defoamer.

All defoamers (natural and synthetic) will go rancid, so should be stored cold in a well-sealed container (to prevent oxidation) during the off-season and checked for odor and taste prior to use.

Swingpure

11-23-2022, 02:05 PM

Natural oils tend to not work as well as synthetic defoamers, resulting in higher amounts being added to accomplish the same amount of foam reduction. This can cause an oily sheen on top of syrup, as well as off-flavor and odd mouth-feel.

Never heard of anyone trying avocado oil...typically you want to use an oil that has no inherent flavor (neutral), which is why safflower oil is commonly used as a defoamer.

All defoamers (natural and synthetic) will go rancid, so should be stored cold in a well-sealed container (to prevent oxidation) during the off-season and checked for odor and taste prior to use.

Thank you.

I did buy a synthetic defoamer today.

I threw out last year’s bottle a couple months ago after reading that they can go rancid. Thank you for the advice.

The gentleman who helped me at CDL, who knows my smaller cinderblock setup, suggested I start with one drop of defoamer each fire and adjust after that.

I did buy more line but they were out of the blue 500’ rolls, so I bought a green coloured 500’ roll. Most of that will go in an area with no other blue lines nearby and is out of sight of any neighbour’s that are up.

I also bought two dozen 500 ml Kent bottles and four dozen caps, as I had some bottles from last year returned to me. Most of my syrup will go into mason jars and I will be buying a bunch of them in the next couple of days. Potentially I might need to bottle about 170 L of syrup this year.

I will run my new lines tomorrow, I am watching the World Cup this afternoon.

Swingpure

11-23-2022, 04:50 PM

I put up the wires for the three new short lines to connect to, and made 14 drops. The other 8 will be drops that fall directly into the pails.

The tubing went easily onto the fittings, in contrast to the last roll I purchased a couple months ago. Having always worked with the blue tubing, the green tubing certainly appeared different. All 14 drops were made from new tubing and new fittings. The other 8 direct drops will be from drops from last year that I had cleaned.

Once again never having done it, when it comes time to clean the nitre from the pan, I will drain all of the sap in the pan into pails and number the pails so that they get poured back into the pan in reverse order, poring them in at the drawoff end of the pan.

I will power wash the nitre off and take the occasion, to power wash the bottom of the pan at the same time.

I will have reversed the pan a couple/few times first to try to remove the nitre before power washing, but as I type this I think in both cases I have to empty the pan, why not power wash it all of the time?

bigschuss

11-23-2022, 05:33 PM

Once again never having done it, when it comes time to clean the nitre from the pan, I will drain all of the sap in the pan into pails and number the pails so that they get poured back into the pan in reverse order, poring them in at the drawoff end of the pan.

I will power wash the nitre off and take the occasion, to power wash the bottom of the pan at the same time.

I will have reversed the pan a couple/few times first to try to remove the nitre before power washing, but as I type this I think in both cases I have to empty the pan, why not power wash it all of the time?

I know you've never done it before....thought I'd chime in. I have a Mason 2x4 and boil about 600 gallons of sap each year. In the 12 years I've boiled with it, I've never had to reverse the flow...EVER. I've never had nitre build up. I think that you're going to find it absolutely unnecessary to drain and powerwash your 2x4 mid-season, let alone reverse the flow. It just won't be an issue. I think a lot of information you read online and in the producer's manual applies less to small time hobbyists and more the larger operations.

Swingpure

11-23-2022, 06:55 PM

I know you've never done it before....thought I'd chime in. I have a Mason 2x4 and boil about 600 gallons of sap each year. In the 12 years I've boiled with it, I've never had to reverse the flow...EVER. I've never had nitre build up. I think that you're going to find it absolutely unnecessary to drain and powerwash your 2x4 mid-season, let alone reverse the flow. It just won't an issue. I think a lot of information you read online and in the producer's manual applies less to small time hobbyists and more the larger operations.

Thank you! That is helpful!

Pdiamond

11-23-2022, 07:48 PM

I like to use canola oil. It works real good for me.

Swingpure

11-24-2022, 06:06 PM

I perhaps should have been watching the football games, but it was a very nice late November day here and I installed the three short lines with drops, with no issues. I decided not to tap two trees. I always give them a second look before installing the drops, and with the leaves off, I felt the trees were not healthy enough to tap. I did double tap two large trees, so I still ended up with 22 new taps.

Our snow is in the process of melting, when it comes back, where I had been thinking I would walk the lines twice a month to keep the path to the taps passable, I decided I will try and walk them twice or so a week. Not only will that help to keep,the paths even more passable, but will help me to stay in shape during the winter and will allow me to keep an eye open for any fallen branches on the lines.

Pdiamond

11-24-2022, 06:35 PM

Yes, sir its warmed up here also. most of all the snow we got is gone.

Swingpure

11-25-2022, 04:04 PM

berkshires

11-28-2022, 02:29 PM

I mentioned in an earlier post about seeing a TV commercial about Maple Syrup. They are not super special, but it is so rare to see commercials on our favourite liquid. (I guess for some it is their favourite non alcoholic liquid) I videoed them off of the TV. A little funny.

https://share.icloud.com/photos/05cBMtsPcw2WVFyJnTuapHt0A

https://share.icloud.com/photos/00eNZ8-SwoybI3F70p3wimqeQ

Thanks for sharing, these are really cute. And in that vein, here's something that's not maple for breakfast. Just heard about it from a colleague from work and made it for Thanksgiving. It was a big hit: https://smittenkitchen.com/2007/11/nutmeg-maple-cream-pie/

Gabe

Swingpure

11-28-2022, 03:44 PM

Thanks for sharing, these are really cute. And in that vein, here's something that's not maple for breakfast. Just heard about it from a colleague from work and made it for Thanksgiving. It was a big hit: https://smittenkitchen.com/2007/11/nutmeg-maple-cream-pie/

Gabe

We have a restaurant near us that specializes in pickerel (walleye) and people come a long ways to eat there. But they also have a Maple Cheesecake that is Orgasmic. It is to die for. If i was on death’s row and got to pick my last meal, this maple cheesecake would be part of it.

Swingpure

11-28-2022, 05:42 PM

If you have a raised flue pan feeding into a finishing pan, do you need two float boxes, one for each pan?

I have sent my pan maker a few questions about getting a raised flue pan into a finishing pan versus the divided pan. The two three key questions, are cost difference, expected boil rate differences, and is it worth while to have a flue pan on a cinder block evaporator?

Today I finished restacking my firewood for the 2024 boiling season. I had it stacked in two 6’ tall rows and thought I did a good job, but found it on the ground a few days ago. When I restacked it, I put it into three, less tall rows. All those finely split logs took time to restack.

I have watched some other evaporator videos, mostly to look at the pans, but in almost case I noticed how full they stacked the firebox

DRoseum

11-28-2022, 06:05 PM

Yes raised flue & syrup pan sets require 2 float boxes. A drop flue and syrup pan set uses only 1 float box.

Swingpure

11-28-2022, 06:53 PM

Yes raised flue & syrup pan sets require 2 float boxes. A drop flue and syrup pan set uses only 1 float box.

Thanks. I read on another thread that a raised flue is preferable to a drop flue, although I guess at the least it is more expensive simply because you have to have two float boxes.

If I was ever to chose a drop flue, I would have to redesign my evaporator, which would not be a big deal.

I should be satisfied with the divided pan, but seeing a potential 2 to 2.5 times increase in boiling rate is attractive.

Before I get too far ahead of myself, I will see what my pan builder has to say. He may not even have time in his schedule to bipuild a more complicated pan for me.

Pdiamond

11-28-2022, 07:07 PM

yes. you need two float boxes, one for incoming sap, one for outgoing to the finish pan, and that also controls your depth in the front syrup pan.

Swingpure

11-29-2022, 01:22 PM

I spoke with my pan builder and we decided I will stick with the divided pan. He cannot tell me when I will receive the new pan and base stack and accessories, but absolutely promises I will get them before the start of the maple season.

Our snow is virtually all gone, but more snow is expected late tomorrow, brought in by a November gale. I will have to check my lines for fallen branches or trees after the expected strong winds. True cold weather arrives around December 7th and it looks like winter will finally start then.

Andy VT

11-29-2022, 04:54 PM

I should be satisfied with the divided pan, but seeing a potential 2 to 2.5 times increase in boiling rate is attractive. Before I get too far ahead of myself, I will see what my pan builder has to say. He may not even have time in his schedule to build a more complicated pan for me.

To the notion of being satisfied with something in maple, I offer the following thought:
"Muwhahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Swingpure

11-29-2022, 07:19 PM

To the notion of being satisfied with something in maple, I offer the following thought:
"Muwhahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

LOL

Actually I addressed not being satisfied this summer, when I built a new structure for my evaporator, and followed suggestions to move to a divided pan with a float box, added a base stack, went to an 8” stove pipe and built a better cinder block evaporator. I also have better seasoned wood, more finely split, and I added a fan to blow air under the grate and likely will buy a better fan. I had my RO pump repaired and made improvements to my DYI vacuum filter.

In my discussion today with the builder, cost was a factor in the final decision. Two things though stood out to me was he told me about the potential of my divided pan. On his very good evaporators, he gets 15+ gph out of it, but the other thing was he asked me if I would ever do more than 172 taps and I said no. At that moment in my mind, I thought that the land I have added 75 taps to, can be taken away from me after any season, and I would be down to under 100 taps and then my need for better, faster will not be as great.

If after this season and if it is a successful one and I am not satisfied and want more, and I get some kind of guarantee, I can use the land for two or three years, I will take a hard look at getting a real evaporator, but that would be a big commitment and I am getting closer to 70. (Not there yet, just turned 67). Although 70 is the new 50, running many taps, all by myself, will start to get more challenging, so maybe going bigger is not the realistic move. But that is many decisions down the road.

Pdiamond

11-29-2022, 07:22 PM

I'll agree Andy, and second the motion.

berkshires

11-30-2022, 08:27 AM

I have watched some other evaporator videos, mostly to look at the pans, but in almost case I noticed how full they stacked the firebox

Looks like you deleted the link you had to the Smoky Lake video? I have it saved, so I don't need that one. But I'm curious which other videos you might be looking at. I was also surprised at how full the firebox was in the Smoky Lake video and I'd like to see other examples.

GO

Swingpure

11-30-2022, 09:44 AM

Looks like you deleted the link you had to the Smoky Lake video? I have it saved, so I don't need that one. But I'm curious which other videos you might be looking at. I was also surprised at how full the firebox was in the Smoky Lake video and I'd like to see other examples.

GO

I am away from home right now but here is the link to the original video and a link to a second one. On the second one it is right near the end of the video you see them loading the firebox.

https://youtu.be/HQPYXBiGheM

https://youtu.be/uCeFBikLvtE

There were some others but I will have to search for them later.

Andy VT

11-30-2022, 09:13 PM

I think you deleted a whiplash post :lol:
In your defense you are a stream-of-consciousness poster. Just part of the charm. My stream of consciousness is probably just as back-and-forth... I'm just not fast enough to write it down before it switches -- usually.
Wise to be considering age and resources.
Also, I think recognizing that satisfaction isn't ultimately attainable in a sugaring setup helps keep things in check. If the four-digit operation doesn't quite satisfy and the 5-digit or even 6-digit operation doesn't quite satisfy, the difference is how many digits you have tied up in it!
I have to check my receipts, but I think I'm still a 3-digit operation... but barely. At least my yearly losses will be kept within 3 digits. If my time is free. :lol:
Oh, and your homemade arch is really lovely. If you find you have a bit more resource, it would greatly benefit from a real door!
Andy