Offseason Expansion PLans - Input appreciated

[Bellehollow]

Hello all -

Hope your seasons were all good! As the 2022 season winds down, we are looking ahead to next year.

We are looking to expand our current 400 tap operation - mixed 3/16 on natural vac and some 5/16 on sureflo style pumps - to a tubing system with automated vac.

The section that we are looking to build out is approximately 20 acres with all mature sugar maples on a north facing hill. Slopes are approximately 1% as an average to our tank location. Our old collection tank was down a hill with greater slopes for the 3/16", but we will be moving our tanks to allow for easier removal in snow and ice.

I have included a drawing at the link below for feedback.

We will probably do this expansion in 2 stages, each approximately 750 taps. We do not have power so will be looking at dc systems for vacuum and some type of solar array for charging. The Bosworth Guzzler G2 systems seem to be our best(and only) real option. We do not live near our sugar bush and need remote functionality to operate.

For storage tanks we are looking at either 1500 or 2000 gallon SS for each 750 taps. Probably closer to the 1500 gallon capacity.

Mainline - we are torn between 1" or 1 1/4". It appears from research that the 1 1/4 can handle 1000 taps. Questions are:

1. Should we run the mainline along the hedge row say 1 1/4 and then the lines teeing off of that say 3/4" that will branch out to our laterals? Or keep all the same size?
2. Run a 1 1/4" line for the first section of 750 taps and then a second one up to the next section of 750 taps? or a 1 1/2 line to capture the whole system?
3. Should we tie in the ends of each line that tees off the main or dead end them all?
4. Leaning towards the spin seal, non-prelashed.
5. Color leaning towards blue.
6. Pump technology either mountainmaplefarm or bosworth sap check
7. Single line verse dual line

More on the expansion - a 2X8 oil fired arch( 0r 30"X8), a 600 or 900 R/O and a new sugar shack 25X40 that will tie into our existing 15X20.



https://drive.google.com/file/d/1dv8mwGwnd_-KW1MQrEdHZ9Tl2oXDjE56/view?usp=sharing


Thanks in advance for any and all feedback.

[motowbrowne]

Personally I'd really try to get into an actual vacuum pump and releaser setup, even if it means running a generator. With that many taps having something that will overcome leaks will be a big bonus, especially if you aren't there all the time.

I'm far from an expert on tubing, but I'd see if you can do an inch over inch wet/dry setup and then brach off into inch mainlines. I just like being able to keep fewer sizes of fittings in stock. 3/4 is a little cheaper, but not as forgiving to install.

I'd only go with spin seal if you're gonna buy the tool. I used dsd star saddles for my installation this year and love them. Not a single leak and they're super simple. I've heard good things about the lapierre flex clips too.

[DrTimPerkins]

Personally I'd really try to get into an actual vacuum pump and releaser setup, even if it means running a generator. With that many taps having something that will overcome leaks will be a big bonus, especially if you aren't there all the time.

I'm far from an expert on tubing, but I'd see if you can do an inch over inch wet/dry setup and then brach off into inch mainlines. I just like being able to keep fewer sizes of fittings in stock. 3/4 is a little cheaper, but not as forgiving to install.

I'd only go with spin seal if you're gonna buy the tool. I used dsd star saddles for my installation this year and love them. Not a single leak and they're super simple. I've heard good things about the lapierre flex clips too.

Good advice throughout this post from start to finish. Forget the guzzler pump. CFM is too low to work just with tree gases from that many taps. No point putting in a great tubing system if the pump is that marginal.

[Bellehollow]

Great! thanks for the advice on the pumps. We were also contemplating trying to go with a gas generator to power a vacuum set-up that we can wire a thermostat to cycle on and off at a pre-set temperature.

What would be a vac pump capable of this amount of taps that can run on say a 2000 watt generator if any?

As far as the mainline that runs in my diagram up the hedge row: If I run a dual line up to cover up to 1500 taps should it be 1 1/4 or 1 1/2? Does the vac line have to be the same size? Can I run a black poly water line for the vac?

The lateral mainlines that tee off of the main - that can just be a single line correct?

[TapTapTap]

The section that we are looking to build out is approximately 20 acres with all mature sugar maples on a north facing hill. Slopes are approximately 1% as an average to our tank location. Our old collection tank was down a hill with greater slopes for the 3/16", but we will be moving our tanks to allow for easier removal in snow and ice.




I agree with the advice to go for a high capacity high vacuum pump (like a rotary vane) with a wet-dry line but I have a couple of concerns:

- At 1% you have a very marginal slope. If you're doing a mechanical releaser over a tank then you'll need extra height at the tank which gives you even less slope to work with.
- A 2,000 gallon SS round bottom tank will be reduced to about 1,500 gallons with a mechanical releaser stand that is suspended in the tank.
- I don't think you'll drive much of a "real" vacuum pump with just a 2,000 watt generator.
- CDL makes gas powered vacuum pumps. There's no sense in having a generator unless you need the power for other equipment. I'd guess you're looking at something closer to an 8,000 watt generator to drive a 3HP electric motor for a rotary vane pump.
- You're going to burn some serious fuel.
- Remote systems are a big challenge. Many guys are using monitoring system to keep track of the operation but there's lot's of complications if you don't have internet at the sugarbush.

Good Luck

Ken

[TapTapTap]

So I think what I'm really concluding in my post above is that maybe you are better off with a simpler sureflo type system. It would be cheaper and easier to maintain. If your sugarhouse was within piping distance I would be strongly suggesting that a high-vac wet/dry system is the best and obvious solution. Or, if you were a big producer you would be setting up with the high-vac wet/dry with insulated/heated pump building and 25kw diesel generators - but even they would need about 10 times more taps to justify it.

Ken

[wiam]

How far from grid power?

[Bellehollow]

Few responses:

The actual slope of this section is between 1 and I would say closer to 3% depending on where you are. Where the tank would go under this plan has a decent drop off from the rest of the bush. I just said 1% at minimum, with the average probably closer to 2%.

We have gone through a couple changes with our overall "plan" the last year and a half or so.

Our current sugarshack sits next to the camp at the top of the property. We can build the new sugarshack on the other side of the property remote from the current camp, but on the road, with power. We have thousands of sugar maples on the property with the ability to tap several with a large tubing system. This would alleviate the power concerns and have all sap flow into the building - which is obviously the most idea situation.

Some concerns that we have is keeping it semi-hobbyish and limiting ourselves to 1500 taps. If we build out on the other side like above - we would have to go 5000-6000 taps to justify expenses, turning it more full-time. Both my partner in this addicting endeavor and I both work full-time jobs and live about an hour away.

We could still run the lines from this current bush down to the road, at approximately 5500 feet of tubing, and that would allow for future expansion on that side if we ever elect to go that route in the future. Is that too far to run with all the maintenance and operational complexity to achieve vacuum on power if we just added a small vacuum house with the 1500 taps to the other side of property? (5500') This side also drops off to steep slopes.

Which keeps bringing us back to this circular argument on how may taps do we want to end up with and what is the best option for our future plans. Ken -yes, that is why we were leaning the Guzzler option or similar. At the same time we dont want to throw good money at a system that we arent going to be happy with.

For 2022 we produced 100 gallons of syrup from our 375 taps. We averaged 1.8% sugar throughout the season. Being below the optimal 1/2 gallon/tap number we realize that we are leaving sap in the woods and want to maximize our efforts.

[bill m]

If you are still working a full time job and doing this after hours you need to upsize your equipment. A 2x8 or 30" x 8 without a steamaway will be to small. Also depending on what concentration level you take your sap to you may need a 1200 GPH 2 post machine. We have about 1300 taps of which 950 are on vacuum, a single post 600 GPH RO and a 3x10 oil fired. The RO is the bottleneck in our operation. We are adding vacuum to another 300 taps for next year and are looking at a 1200 GPH 2 post RO.

[mainebackswoodssyrup]

I would build the sugar shack where you can get power. That is #1 in my book. Sap directly to the shack is a close 2nd in my opinion. From someone who worked in a 5500 tap sugar bush with his partner in hopes of buying it- you are correct that it’s a lot and not so much a hobby. We also work full time jobs and we’re just under an hour away. Maintenance and tapping was manageable but it was at least one day every weekend starting in November and usually time around the holidays spent on the woods. During the season would have been too much for us.
I’d move the shack and set up half the taps to get started. Size everything in the woods appropriately so you can expand in the future. Power, real vac, no pumping…..getting the sugar shack in the right spot makes everything easier.

[DrTimPerkins]

Sorry, on phone so only a short reply.

Building an optimal tubing system for that many taps and putting on a diaphragm pump is like building a muscle car and putting a lawnmower engine in it. You won’t be happy. The CFM is too low on a good day that isn’t hot. Add a warm day and 1-2 leaks and vacuum will be minimal. Diaphragm pumps require good and frequent leak-checking.

If you’re concerned about leaving sap in the woods, put in a good tubing system and a good pump.

If you’re more concerned about money, do a system more optimized for gravity. Short mainlines, less mainlines and smaller mains and mostly lateral lines with a diaphragm pump as supplement. That would be more efficient and provide reasonable results.

[M&M Maple Grove]

If you’re more concerned about money, do a system more optimized for gravity. Short mainlines, less mainlines and smaller mains and mostly lateral lines with a diaphragm pump as supplement. That would be more efficient and provide reasonable results.

I hope you enjoyed all your time with your grandchild and family.

I’m having the same conundrum. I have 12 acres shaped more or less like 3/4 of a soup bowl. Minimal slope up top, nice slope on the walls and then shallows out again with the sugarhouse at the bottom center of the bowl. There is only a 60 foot drop from the top of the lines down to the sugarhouse. I am currently running 3/16 with the largest shurflo pump which is four diaphragm/ 4 gallons per minute. I have been achieving around 25 inches+ at the top of the lines and at the pump itself. The lines run roughly between 500 and 800 feet. With the intentions of going with one tap per tree next year, I will be at roughly 200 taps with the potential of 500 across the entire property. Remote location, solar powered with potential micro Hydro system.

So the question is, can I run the mainlines up to where I start to get a good slope and continue up the hill with 3/16 or would I need to bring the mainline to the top of the hill for that shallow area at the top?

[motowbrowne]

I hope you enjoyed all your time with your grandchild and family.

I’m having the same conundrum. I have 12 acres shaped more or less like 3/4 of a soup bowl. Minimal slope up top, nice slope on the walls and then shallows out again with the sugarhouse at the bottom center of the bowl. There is only a 60 foot drop from the top of the lines down to the sugarhouse. I am currently running 3/16 with the largest shurflo pump which is four diaphragm/ 4 gallons per minute. I have been achieving around 25 inches+ at the top of the lines and at the pump itself. The lines run roughly between 500 and 800 feet. With the intentions of going with one tap per tree next year, I will be at roughly 200 taps with the potential of 500 across the entire property. Remote location, solar powered with potential micro Hydro system.

So the question is, can I run the mainlines up to where I start to get a good slope and continue up the hill with 3/16 or would I need to bring the mainline to the top of the hill for that shallow area at the top?

If you're going to continue using 3/16 that's what you'd want the sap to be in while it drops down the steep part of your hill. Once you reach the shallow slope below you could dump them into a mainline, but honestly with 3/16 I don't know that there'd be much of an advantage versus just continuing the 3/16 right to your pump.

[ADK_XJ]

If you're going to continue using 3/16 that's what you'd want the sap to be in while it drops down the steep part of your hill. Once you reach the shallow slope below you could dump them into a mainline, but honestly with 3/16 I don't know that there'd be much of an advantage versus just continuing the 3/16 right to your pump.

I just asked this very same question in another thread...just passing along the answer: consensus (including from DR. Tim) was that, if there was (good) slope on the remaining section that needs to be covered, stick with the 3/16" all the way to the collection point. If it is flat or only slightly sloped, switch to mainline so as not to have friction be an issue.

Hope this helps!

[M&M Maple Grove]

Thank you for the replies. My concerns at the top of the hill is I may not be hitting a continual 3% slope and might be causing friction before it hits the slope. My other thought was, would it be beneficial to run 5/16 laterals off of the mainline in the low areas near the collection point?

[Bellehollow]

The slope after your last tap is what you are looking for to create the natural vacuum w 3/16.

[Sap Raider]

Assuming you have no power on site with this response. I would not use a guzzler with that many taps and with what you have drawn you won't have enough cfm, which is what most all responses have been.
Here is what I did for about the same acreage with less taps than what you have (about 750). As far as conductor lines I did a wet dry system, the wet started out from the farthest distance with 1" and about have way went to 1 1/4", the dry line is 1 1/4" from the farthest distance and again about have way switched to 1 1/5". That works extremely well. All mains are 1" with stainless Y into the conductor with shutoff valves and loops off the dry line to the main with tees to the dry line. I built a gas powered vacuum pump 20 cfm which absolutely handles the vacuum need. Used a 1000 tap releaser and an H2O moisture trap. The releaser dumps into a 275 gallon tote with a twelve volt pump on contact switch and pumps to a separate tank.
The system works extremely well. The will be days that the dry line has lots of flow to the releaser. I had 28" throughout the whole season.
The must do with what you are thinking of is making sure you very few or no sags in the conductor or mains. Stake it every 10 feet wit correct pitch. Don't skimp on this step, it works very well. I hope I explained it so you could understand it, it was a lot of work but it works very well. Good luck..