Temp/Hyrdometer Question

[nhmaple_enthusiast]

Hello
I set 35 taps in northern NH and boil down on a Smoky Lake 2'X4' flat bottom pan that is divided. Nice little rig for # of taps. Because my sugar house is not close enough for water and power I try to bring it close to syrup and finish it in the house on an electric cooktop. I use a digital thermometer and hydrometer to finish. I test the thermometer in boiling water prior and because I'm 1100 feet above sea level I expect the thermometer to show water boiling at 210 degrees. One degree less for each 500 feet of elevation. And it's accurate and shows water boiling at 210 degrees. I would then expect to be close to syrup at approx 217-218 degrees, but that is not the case. I cannot get the hydrometer to float at the hot line unless I'm at a strong 220 degrees. I fill the hydrometer cup right out of the kettle and it's very close to the 211, maybe slightly less.
Maybe I'm splitting hairs here but it seems that I need to be well above the 7 degrees. Just wondered if anyone has experienced similar issues
thanks Tim

[ecolbeck]

The boiling point of water is also affected by weather induced barometric pressure changes. The exact boiling point of water needs to be determined on a daily basis. The other thing to consider is that you need to compensate for temperature with your hydrometer. Manufacturers make temperature compensation charts to help you determine the correct density at a particular temperature.

I actually set my thermometer based on the finished density of syrup rather than boiling water. I find this method more convenient. I also draw off syrup slightly over density and then dilute it before bottling. It is far easier to dilute syrup than it is to reheat and continue boiling.

[RedMapleCreek]

I used to have the same difficulty in knowing what hydrometer reading was syrup for a given temperature during the sampling. I now use a Murphy cup which has a built in dial thermometer that indicates the correct hydrometer reading for the temperature of the contents in the cup. This eliminates any need for temperature compensation charts and makes checking tHe density quick and easy. I bought mine at Bascoms, but they are available from several maple equipment vendors.

[ecolbeck]

I used to have the same difficulty in knowing what hydrometer reading was syrup for a given temperature during the sampling. I now use a Murphy cup which has a built in dial thermometer that indicates the correct hydrometer reading for the temperature of the contents in the cup. This eliminates any need for temperature compensation charts and makes checking tHe density quick and easy. I bought mine at Bascoms, but they are available from several maple equipment vendors.

+1 on the Murphy cup. Makes life MUCH easier.

[bill m]

First, are you sure your hydrometer is correct? If it is then stop worrying about temperature and trust the hydrometer. Just make sure you are using it correctly.

[M&M Maple Grove]

It’s also worth noting that the hot test line on a hydrometer is an estimate. Hydrometers are calibrated at 60° Cold test line. Overtime, I found it a lot easier studying how to syrup comes off a scoop or metal spatula after dipping and removing it from the syrup. The viscosity of the syrup as it is running off is the best indicator for me. The old timer method. If you were finishing off on the stove top, you can check with a hydrometer at 60° and make a good estimate of where you’re finishing point will be in the pot. I’ll use the hydrometer to get an estimate of where I’m at while finishing but the line never seems to be accurate. Refractometers are handy as well. Much less chance of breakage.

[bill m]

Overtime, I found it a lot easier studying how to syrup comes off a scoop or metal spatula after dipping and removing it from the syrup. The viscosity of the syrup as it is running off is the best indicator for me.
Of all of the methods of testing syrup this is the least accurate. I have demonstrated to visitors many times how it will sheet off of a scoop and then check with a hydrometer and it will not float.

I’ll use the hydrometer to get an estimate of where I’m at while finishing but the line never seems to be accurate.
What are you using to check it against to prove your hydrometer is not accurate?

[nhmaple_enthusiast]

Thanks for all the replies.....here is why I brought this up. When I first started sugaring many years ago I used Rink Mann's Backyard Sugarin' handbook as a guide. Neat little book for the beginner. This was before Murphy Cups and Rink used a thermometer to determine when his sap was syrup, no hydrometer. He checked his thermometer in a pot of boiling water next to his kettle and added 7 degrees. That's exactly what I did, but because my water boils at 210 I checked it at 217 with a hydrometer and it was just barely floating. So I thought maybe the 7 degree concept was just a guide. But if I red line at 220+ then I'm thinking either the hydrometer is way off and my syrup is way heavy or forget about the 7 degree concept.
My Bascom's hydrometer was bought quite a few years ago, but when I got it I used my vernier caliper to measure the top of the paper to the top of the glass bulb to gauge whether it has moved over the years and it has not. it's still at .885
I'll probably pick up another hydrometer at some point. thanks again

[DRoseum]

You have to use a hydrometer, a thermometer and a compensation chart OR a hydrometer and a compensation (murphy) cup. Density changes with temperature - you have to account for that to make sure your density is correct.

Also as others have noted, the finishing temperature of syrup (and boiling point of water) can vary by multiple degrees F based up current barometric pressure at your location. I have had it change by 2 degrees mid boil. Hydrometers (if in good condition and used properly) are best for density checks. State regulators who inspect your facilities and practices will want to see a controlled process/procedure for actually measuring and documenting density for each batch if you plan to sell your syrup.

[Sugar Bear]

Hello
I set 35 taps in northern NH and boil down on a Smoky Lake 2'X4' flat bottom pan that is divided. Nice little rig for # of taps. Because my sugar house is not close enough for water and power I try to bring it close to syrup and finish it in the house on an electric cooktop. I use a digital thermometer and hydrometer to finish. I test the thermometer in boiling water prior and because I'm 1100 feet above sea level I expect the thermometer to show water boiling at 210 degrees. One degree less for each 500 feet of elevation. And it's accurate and shows water boiling at 210 degrees. I would then expect to be close to syrup at approx 217-218 degrees, but that is not the case. I cannot get the hydrometer to float at the hot line unless I'm at a strong 220 degrees. I fill the hydrometer cup right out of the kettle and it's very close to the 211, maybe slightly less.
Maybe I'm splitting hairs here but it seems that I need to be well above the 7 degrees. Just wondered if anyone has experienced similar issues
thanks Tim

Be sure to read this a couple times because I am not a good writer/explainer, but it will probably manifest the cause of your confusion and misread of temperature.

Your hydrometer is calibrated to float "syrup" at the red line at the 211 hot reading because that is the "anticipated" temperature of what syrup will quickly/soon be in the cup when it is poured at 219 degrees into the 68 degree cup ( cup that is stored at typical room temperature) .

The hydrometer is calibrated by the maker ( thermodynamic engineers ) and they assume the cup is calibrated to 68 degrees or there about by the user.

So you have to ask yourself, what is the temperature of your metal cup when you poor syrup into it? Are you pouring syrup into a 60 degree metal cup?
In which case your syrup might need to be at 220 before it will show up at 211 in the cup.

As we all know metal quickly and effectively cools hot liquids and visa versa.

So if you store your cup at 32 degrees and then pore 219 degree syrup in it, it will immediately be something like 204 degrees in the cup. And that will give you an inaccurate reading. 210 degrees will give you an ever so slightly inaccurate reading.

If you fill your cup once with 219 degree syrup ( you will heat the metal of the cup up some ) and then pore syrup out and quickly refill immediately with 219 degree syrup you will have syrup in the cup that is 214 degree. Again producing a inaccurate reading on the hydrometer.


Again ... a metal cup stored and at 68 degrees filled with syrup at 219 degrees should result in syrup in the cup at 211 degrees immediately and then falling from there.

A 78 degree metal cup will do something different temperature wise.

So will a 32 degree metal cup.

The permutations and combinations are endless.

But if we are careful with our cup temperature, hydrometers will work very well so long as they are calibrated to begin with well. Which can be another issue in itself.

The bottom line here is that the manufacture has to calibrate the hydrometer well and the user has to calibrate the temperature of the metal cup well in order for them to be accurate.

[DrTimPerkins]

Many many possible errors in measuring density.

Boiling point elevation (BPE) is a useful guide to knowing when syrup is done, but is not foolproof and is not legal for measuring density. If you're using it only at home, fine...if not, use a hydrometer. A refractometer is also a useful tool for dialing things in, but isn't legal and is subject to lots of errors unless you're doing things just right.

1. Start with a quality calibrated hydrometer that has been inspected and stamped (purple) by the State of Vermont. You can buy cheaper hydrometers, but what's the point if they are wrong. I've seen almost entire batches of hydrometers get inspected and destroyed (smashed) due to being WRONG. Pay the few bucks extra for an inspected and calibrated unit.

2. Every year get your hydrometer calibrated by your State or by your Association. Tiny cracks, slipped papers, build up of niter...almost anything can throw off the calibration. If you ever drop it...get it checked.

3. Consider having 2 calibrated hydrometers and occasionally test them side-by-side.

4. Measure the temperature of the syrup. If you're doing a hot test and the syrup is not at 211 deg F, then you MUST apply a correction factor. Make sure your thermometer is good too. Some units have a calibration screw (to set at 212 deg F in boiling water), others don't. If you use an electronic type thermometer, make sure it's a thermistor type, NOT a thermocouple type (which regularly have acceptable errors of +/- 2 full deg F). Alternatively, use a CALIBRATED Murphy cup (easy to do) and understand how it works. Once you figure it out, it's a great tool to have.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLZP4fDl-nB98B3TQ4YofaQQkRi-tC0ut9

Sheeting might be fun to do, and if you've got 20 yrs of experience you might just have it down pretty well, but it is a GUIDE only, and isn't precise enough and for sure isn't a legal way to determine whether you have syrup. If syrup starts to go even a little ropy, a sheeting test is worthless. I've seen concentrate in the 20 Brix range that sheets like syrup.

[M&M Maple Grove]

My apologies for not being clear on my post as the technique I was referring to is a guide as well. It just helps you get close to the density you’re looking for without having to use the hydrometer as frequently and risk damage.

And to be clear, I said nothing about sheeting.

[Sugar Bear]

Many many possible errors in measuring density.

Boiling point elevation (BPE) is a useful guide to knowing when syrup is done, but is not foolproof and is not legal for measuring density. If you're using it only at home, fine...if not, use a hydrometer. A refractometer is also a useful tool for dialing things in, but isn't legal and is subject to lots of errors unless you're doing things just right.

1. Start with a quality calibrated hydrometer that has been inspected and stamped (purple) by the State of Vermont. You can buy cheaper hydrometers, but what's the point if they are wrong. I've seen almost entire batches of hydrometers get inspected and destroyed (smashed) due to being WRONG. Pay the few bucks extra for an inspected and calibrated unit.

2. Every year get your hydrometer calibrated by your State or by your Association. Tiny cracks, slipped papers, build up of niter...almost anything can throw off the calibration. If you ever drop it...get it checked.

3. Consider having 2 calibrated hydrometers and occasionally test them side-by-side.

4. Measure the temperature of the syrup. If you're doing a hot test and the syrup is not at 211 deg F, then you MUST apply a correction factor. Make sure your thermometer is good too. Some units have a calibration screw (to set at 212 deg F in boiling water), others don't. If you use an electronic type thermometer, make sure it's a thermistor type, NOT a thermocouple type (which regularly have acceptable errors of +/- 2 full deg F). Alternatively, use a CALIBRATED Murphy cup (easy to do) and understand how it works. Once you figure it out, it's a great tool to have.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLZP4fDl-nB98B3TQ4YofaQQkRi-tC0ut9

Sheeting might be fun to do, and if you've got 20 yrs of experience you might just have it down pretty well, but it is a GUIDE only, and isn't precise enough and for sure isn't a legal way to determine whether you have syrup. If syrup starts to go even a little ropy, a sheeting test is worthless. I've seen concentrate in the 20 Brix range that sheets like syrup.

Above are all terrific points.

I am wondering for certain why 211 is used for the hot test temp on calibrated hydrometers and have stated my thoughts on why I believe it is in a previous post.

But perhaps it is a temp at which the syrup no longer holds enough ambiguous amount of air in it to no longer effect the actual density of the syrup?

As with the OP, It seems a lot of sugar makers (myself included ) have had difficulty getting 211 degree syrup in the cup. I.E. what is necessary for a "accurate" test with a hydrometer calibrated by Vermont or God or whoever. Unfortunately we live in a world where it is possible for your best friend one day to be your biggest enemy the next, in any facet of our lives, whether it be our hydrometers, our spouse, our dog, our anything. And of course we all know that. But we have to give our hydrometers the benefit of the doubt at some point. Yes double check them. Triple check them ... make sure it is not counterfeit. Sanity has to be preserved at some point however.

But the crux of the problem here is that it is difficult to get 211 degree syrup in the tube and accuracy depends on that.

211 creates a difficult temperature to generate in the cup because if the syrup is 219 which for the most part it is, then that depends on the metal cup being a certain temperature before the 219 goes in it.

Would it be possible to create a hydrometer with a red line that is calibrated at 218 or 219 and wouldn't that be a easier temp to generate and test on? I.E. metal cup is stored in the boiling syrup and then pulled out for a immediate hydrometer test at 218/219

Wouldn't that be a less ambiguous temperature?

[DRoseum]

You have to measure the temperature of the syrup in the cup and use a compensation chart to know what hydrometer reading is expected for 66.9 brix at that temperature.

The temperature can be anything from 50 F to 211F. You just have to measure it and use the chart.

https://www.rothsugarbush.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Temperature-Correction-Chart-for-Maple-Sap-and-Syrup-Hydrometers.pdf

The Murphy compensation cup does this correlation for you, identifying the target hydrometer reading for 66.9 Brix density at the temperature of the syrup in the cup.

[Sugar Bear]

You have to measure the temperature of the syrup in the cup and use a compensation chart to know what hydrometer reading is expected for 66.9 brix at that temperature.

The temperature can be anything from 50 F to 211F. You just have to measure it and use the chart.

https://www.rothsugarbush.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Temperature-Correction-Chart-for-Maple-Sap-and-Syrup-Hydrometers.pdf

The Murphy compensation cup does this correlation for you, identifying the target hydrometer reading for 66.9 Brix density at the temperature of the syrup in the cup.

Dear Santa

One Murphy Cup please

[wobbletop]

Does anyone use the hydrometers with the built in thermometer? Such as
https://webstore.cdlinc.ca/en/hydrometer-for-maple-syrup

https://webstore.cdlinc.ca/content/images/thumbs/0002549_hydrometer-for-maple-syrup.jpeg

The manual that it comes with says it's accurate from 35 to 210F so if you're taking hot syrup off the pan, you do need to wait to get within it's approved range.

My question is how accurate it is at 210F? Would it be better to wait until the syrup cools more to get a better reading?

[jrgagne99]

Wasn't the 211F chosen because if you keep your cup warm (i.e., by hanging it in the draw-off box or on the inside edge of the syrup pan) boiling "syrup" will be pretty close to 211F pretty much immediately after filling the cup?

Testing from your canning unit is similar. Use a warm cup and the temperature as read from the dial on the canning unit. Then correct with the chart since you don't go to boiling in your canning unit. This also assumes a well-mixed batch of syrup in the unit, just prior to making the measurement.

[nhmaple_enthusiast]

All great points, especially the part about trying to maintain a decent temp in your hydrometer cup to try and stay close to the 211. Because I finish in the house I've always kept the cup next to the kettle to keep it as warm as possible and then dip it into the syrup to fill it before placing the hydrometer. I think the reason I was hung up on the temp was because I find it very difficult to check the temp in the cup with the hydrometer floating alongside it.
Bottom line, I'll forget about focusing on the temp and probably pick up a Murphy cup and new hydrometer. All of your feedback is invaluable and the reason this is such a great forum. Thanks

[MapleCamp]

How do wholesalers measure if you are bringing them drums that might be 40 degrees.

[TapTapTap]

I've always assumed that the hot syrup in the test cup was pretty close to 211. But, after reading these posts this morning, I decided I should check my temperature during my hydrometer testing for todays boil. I got out the little thermometer and checked the cup full of syrup - 209 deg F. Pretty darn close and the syrup might have dropped a couple of degrees before the thermometer stabilized. I was very satisfied and the red mark stood proudly above the top of the syrup to be just slightly heavy. Perfection. I'd send a pic but I still can't figure it out.

And a few details - I keep two test cups in the float box. One is full of clean water for storing two hydrometers and the other is used for the testing. I always trust my hydrometers above all else.

Ken

[DrTimPerkins]

Wouldn't that be a less ambiguous temperature?

Not if the syrup were still boiling.

211 is a pretty easy temperature to achieve right off the evaporator. Keep your hydrometer cup hot. Fill with syrup from the drawoff, dump, fill, dump, fill..measure. Almost always is at or really close to 211 deg F that way.

[DrTimPerkins]

How do wholesalers measure if you are bringing them drums that might be 40 degrees.

They measure at room temperature and apply a correction factor as needed to the COLD test line (usually blue on the hydrometer). You can measure syrup density at any temperature you want...you just need to apply a correction factor.

[Keitha333]

What works well for me is I purchased a digital thermometer for about $15 that allows the probe to rotate 180 degrees. I draw off and hang that in a "V" off the cup and wait until it reads 211. The thermometer reading is pretty instant. Once 211 is reached I look what the hydrometer is floating at.

[DrTimPerkins]

What works well for me is I purchased a digital thermometer for about $15 that allows the probe to rotate 180 degrees. I draw off and hang that in a "V" off the cup and wait until it reads 211. The thermometer reading is pretty instant. Once 211 is reached I look what the hydrometer is floating at.

Exactly the way we did it before we started using a Murphy cup, then later a Murphy float.

[Sugar Bear]

Not if the syrup were still boiling.

211 is a pretty easy temperature to achieve right off the evaporator. Keep your hydrometer cup hot. Fill with syrup from the drawoff, dump, fill, dump, fill..measure. Almost always is at or really close to 211 deg F that way.

Absolutely not the case with my cup. Would bet a million ... trillion ... gazillion bucks on that too.

When I do that I get syrup in the cup at 214ish nearly every time. Have to wait for a cool down while my syrup on the burner might be crystalizing.

On the other hand if my cup has been stored at room temperature and 219 goes into it, it is at nearly exactly 211. But that only gives me one shot because then the metal is heated up.

Cup was a few bucks cheaper online and certainly stainless and fills and fits the hydrometer.

But ...

My hydrometer is VT approved with a serial number.

Perhaps my cup should be too?

Or perhaps such "APPROVED" hydrometers should also have the option of being packaged with the "APPROVED" cup as well.

But also have the option of being packaged by themselves for those who are terrific at braking things made of glass like myself.

Murphy cup is on the way for me however.

[DrTimPerkins]

Absolutely not the case with my cup. Would bet a million ... trillion ... gazillion bucks on that too.

Certainly can be a good bit of variation. Hydrometer, cup size, how you keep the cup warm...all will affect the temperature (and uncorrected density) of the syrup right after filling the cup.

[TapTapTap]

Absolutely not the case with my cup. Would bet a million ... trillion ... gazillion bucks on that too.

When I do that I get syrup in the cup at 214ish nearly every time.....

SugarBear -
Are you finishing from an evaporator? I think my syrup is already cooling down when it passes through the drawoff box and a bunch of SS tubing with valves. If you're finishing on a stove and dipping the cup then I can imagine it being a lot higher than 211.
Ken

[Sugar Bear]

SugarBear -
Are you finishing from an evaporator? I think my syrup is already cooling down when it passes through the drawoff box and a bunch of SS tubing with valves. If you're finishing on a stove and dipping the cup then I can imagine it being a lot higher than 211.
Ken

Yes, I am finishing on natural gas flame. And dipping. So I am 219+ into the lava.

First dip with the cup coming from cup at room temp puts 210/211 in every time. Quick consecutive dips after that puts 214+ in the cup.

Figured the 211 must be the red line for that reason, but must be for another.

But I have learned to work with it just a bit of a PITA.

I have plans to start using the murphy cup next year. I am sure I will brake my hydrometer soon anyhow and need a backup on hand.

Murphy cup is expensive but I think I can get some of the people who steal my syrup to buy one.

[TapTapTap]

Yes, I am finishing on natural gas flame. And dipping. So I am 219+ into the lava.

First dip with the cup coming from cup at room temp puts 210/211 in every time. Quick consecutive dips after that puts 214+ in the cup.

Figured the 211 must be the red line for that reason, but must be for another.

But I have learned to work with it just a bit of a PITA.

I have plans to start using the murphy cup next year. I am sure I will brake my hydrometer soon anyhow and need a backup on hand.

Murphy cup is expensive but I think I can get some of the people who steal my syrup to buy one.


SugarBear,
There is nothing wrong with your testing cup. By dipping, you are not using the hydrometer in accordance with the process generally described by the manufacturer's procedures. You will lose the gazillion billion dollar bet with Dr. Tim since he indicated that the 211 is pretty close when taken from a draw-off.
Ken

[DrTimPerkins]

You will lose the gazillion billion dollar bet with Dr. Tim ...

I'll accept cash or bank check. :lol:

[Sugar Bear]

SugarBear,
There is nothing wrong with your testing cup. By dipping, you are not using the hydrometer in accordance with the process generally described by the manufacturer's procedures. You will lose the gazillion billion dollar bet with Dr. Tim since he indicated that the 211 is pretty close when taken from a draw-off.
Ken

Yes, I did not take into account the literal meaning of the draw-off.

Fortunately we did not shake on that one.

Besides he would have to wait 400 years for the money as I would have to rob every bank in the world for the next 400 years to come up with that amount of money.

May be nothing wrong with my test cup.

But another small problem I have noticed is that "IF" my hydrometer is cool itself. That can have a noticeable cooling effect on the syrup as it slides into the cup as well.

Now that could be because the cup I got is not the correct size for my hydrometer ( I.E. too small ) and did not pay full attention to the manufactures statement of "for use only with xyz cup"

The devil is frequently hiding in the details.

If I had it to do over again I think I would have just bought the cup at Leader when I bought the hydrometer as well. Rather the save $10 or $15 dollars by buying a mystery cup brand online.

Might have had the same effect with leaders cup.

But at least my sanity would be slightly more in tact at this point in time. And sanity is priceless and becoming scarce these days.

[DrTimPerkins]

The devil is frequently hiding in the details.

That is pretty much the case with almost all types of measurements. Any type of device or instrument has various rules and guidelines to follow...otherwise the indication could be in error. Even doing everything right there are errors that are built in to the system...the trick is to minimize them as much as you can (without it costing you too much). We spend a LOT of time making sure our instruments are calibrated and that the techniques we use are correct. Even then, we'll take multiple measurements, both in the same and in different ways to internally check our numbers. That isn't necessary in all cases obviously, but if you're doing something like selling sap, a measurement difference of just a few percent off in sap volume or sugar content can make a huge difference to the buyer and seller.

[wobbletop]

So no comments on the type of hydrometer I mentioned above? Seems as easy to use as a murphy cup since there are no charts to reference. You just see where the thermometer line lines up with the top of the syrup in the cup.

[wiam]

My only question would be: who inspects them?



So no comments on the type of hydrometer I mentioned above? Seems as easy to use as a murphy cup since there are no charts to reference. You just see where the thermometer line lines up with the top of the syrup in the cup.

[ToadHill]

So no comments on the type of hydrometer I mentioned above? Seems as easy to use as a murphy cup since there are no charts to reference. You just see where the thermometer line lines up with the top of the syrup in the cup.

They are not inspected and are not approved for use. BTW, they are called a hydrotherm.

[M&M Maple Grove]

I’ve been biting my tongue on this but I feel it needs to be said. This is a backyard enthusiast and kitchen boiler thread. Can we cut a little slack on the Hydrotherm? Seems like the perfect answer for someone with a handful of taps. This is all fantastic information but seems to be miscategorised at this point. This is why you have to do so much sifting to find information in the archives. Most backyarders are using temperature as a major gauge. Now they have an additional tool. As someone already mentioned, you can calibrate it yourself by making a mark when you first get it.

I don’t think a Murphy cup is fit for everyone.

[jrgagne99]

I agree with M&M. Temperature is probably fine for most backyarders who will be keeping their 2-3 gallons of syrup in the fridge anyway. If in doubt, boil it a bit longer so it's heavy.

But the chart really is quick and easy. You just take your hyrdometer reading and note the temperature as well. Look at the chart to see what syrup should be at that temperature, and adjust as necessary.

I think the sensitivity to temperature is overemphasized somewhat, especially since every 10 degrees F is only 1/2 brix change in density. Since this is the spacing of the tick-marks on most hydrometers, you're not getting it much closer than that anyway. Therefore, I think you really only need to measure temperature accurate to +/- 10F, and if you err on the high side you're safe.

[DrTimPerkins]

Boiling point elevation is fine for hobby producers as long as they use a decent thermometer that is calibrated, use good technique, refrigerate their syrup, and don't sell any product. Change any of those and a calibrated hydrometer is a good addition. Start making a hundred gallons or more of syrup and a Murphy cup is nice.

[Sugar Bear]

I’ve been biting my tongue on this but I feel it needs to be said. This is a backyard enthusiast and kitchen boiler thread. Can we cut a little slack on the Hydrotherm? Seems like the perfect answer for someone with a handful of taps. This is all fantastic information but seems to be miscategorised at this point. This is why you have to do so much sifting to find information in the archives. Most backyarders are using temperature as a major gauge. Now they have an additional tool. As someone already mentioned, you can calibrate it yourself by making a mark when you first get it.

I don’t think a Murphy cup is fit for everyone.

OP stated he was having difficulty generating syrup in the cup at 211 for the red line test.

Various reasons for the difficulty in doing that have been mentioned and discussed.

People who have forgotten more about sugaring then I know have recommended a murphy cup as a alternative to resolving those difficulties.

As a backyarder and still a backyarder I started out at 25 taps 6 years ago and was up to 75 this year.

My first year or two I used temperature alone as a "its syrup guage" . I did not kill anyone or create anything other then smiles. But syrup can boil at 219 for a mysterious amount of time before it is close to red lined syrup, so looking back I would never suggest starting a back yard sugaring operation with at least a hydrometer test. Its a small investment in return for a massive chunk of sanity preserved.

At about my second or third year I started using a hydrometer with cup. Some subtle difficulties with it like the OP is having but more and more smiles, and still nobody sick. (I.E. I had not gone backwards ) like I do with most software upgrades.

Knowing your syrup is syrup at any level does not guarantee sanity but it sure does help in its preservation.

Again, sanity is priceless.

Now hot on the trail of a murphy cup.

Great thread.

[Sugar Bear]

I think the sensitivity to temperature is overemphasized somewhat, especially since every 10 degrees F is only 1/2 brix change in density. Since this is the spacing of the tick-marks on most hydrometers, you're not getting it much closer than that anyway. Therefore, I think you really only need to measure temperature accurate to +/- 10F, and if you err on the high side you're safe.

This is definitely a well made point for the cup, especially if it is only a degree or two. But a 10 degree differential off of 211 is easily achievable if not paying full attention to all potential impacts to the temp in the cup.

But in my first two years as a backyarder using temperature alone I was at times definitely too low on the brix when bottling.

Very easy for me to be off when using temp alone for a guage.

But no ... never had tadpoles surfacing in my bottled syrup.

[DrTimPerkins]

But no ... never had tadpoles surfacing in my bottled syrup.

New infusion flavor. :mrgreen:

[M&M Maple Grove]

It is a good conversation and for that, I’ll expand on what I’ve been doing. my draw off consists of a box and a ball valve from a 3 x 3 syrup pan. The box has a receiver for a thermometer and I use a digital one. I start to draw off with a slow trickle to stream when I’m bouncing between 217 and 218° I can expect a temperature spike up to 220 to 221° within about 30 seconds. At that point, I try to maintain 219° and if the temperature spikes, I will pull sap from the back compartment of the syrup pan and drizzle from the draw off back to thin it out a bit. I do not pay attention the barometric pressure because I will be finishing it off on a stove top.

The sugarhouse is located in a remote area on my property so I use a quad or a snowmobile to move batches in 5 gallon containers. I store overnight in my basement which happens to be at 60°. This is when I first check with a hydrometer. I usually fall right around 65 brix. It is then brought up to temperature over a turkey fryer to which at that point, if I feel it’s a little light, I’ll let it go for a few minutes. The pot is then moved to the stove top which is a weak, propane flame. This is when I will estimate based on volume and using a sugarhouse calculator app what my volume should be at 68 brix. The process is slow from this point on so it’s not running away from me. This is where I was talking about watching the viscosity. I would always shoot for the heavy side to be safe. It is then, drained into a canner with a cone filter and bottled. I would save what’s left at the bottom of my canner and check the density again the next day at 60°. The first few years, I would see crystallization at the bottom of the bottles but for the last few years, I haven’t. Other than a reduction in yield, is there any other disadvantages to going a little heavy? Dr. Tim, am I just a fast learner to be able to get that down in six years?:lol:

Speaking of sheeting, I always thought 68 brix represented a change in the consistency of the syrup with sheeting showing it to be just beyond the point of syrup. I found it interesting to hear that syrup could sheet with such a low brix.

So that’s it, feel free to tear apart my methodology. Interested to hear.

Note, no syrup going to market at this point.

[berkshires]

New infusion flavor. :mrgreen:

People will pay extra for a hint of that special end-of-season flavor: peepers!

GO

[Sugar Bear]

People will pay extra for a hint of that special end-of-season flavor: peepers!

GO

I have stumbled upon a new brand name for those that love the under cooked stuff.

"Tadpole Maple" .... from by backyard to your door.

Patent pending.

[Big_Eddy]

They are not inspected and are not approved for use. BTW, they are called a hydrotherm.
Be careful with generalities. Ontario regulations require proper density syrup. There are no regulations in Ontario that identify which instruments can or cannot be used to measure the density of the syrup.
A hydrotherm is a perfectly legal instrument for testing syrup density in Ontario. As is a thermometer, hydrometer, and refractometer.

Like any instrument, if the calibration is off, the result will be too.

[ToadHill]

Thanks for the info. Had no idea they were legal elsewhere.

[paulslund]

Be careful with generalities. Ontario regulations require proper density syrup. There are no regulations in Ontario that identify which instruments can or cannot be used to measure the density of the syrup.
A hydrotherm is a perfectly legal instrument for testing syrup density in Ontario. As is a thermometer, hydrometer, and refractometer.

Like any instrument, if the calibration is off, the result will be too.

Hi Ed.

I was curious about your comment as I thought I had previously read that a hydrotherm is not allowed for use in Ontario, but on the OMSPA website they specifically indicate in the Density section:

"Has a minimum soluble solids content of 66 per cent as determined by a refractometer at 20°C."

Did Ontario recently change to specify Refractometer and remove hydrometer?
Maybe there is a difference between the Ontario and Federal regulations and that's where I was confused?

Thanks,
Paul.