Marcland set up info

[Sugarmaker]

Looking for suggestions, ideas and mistakes not to make when setting up a Marcland Auto Draw off system?

I did go read some of the threads on the maple trader and most folks like them. It was interesting to note that most folks still watch it draw off.

I have a old 3 x 10 King arch. 5 foot drop flue and 5 foot syrup pan conventional partitioned front pan. I would like to be able to change sides rather quickly and easily to scour the sugarsand. Change over could be before starting to boil the next day.

The draw off that I am going to get is the one with the temp alarm and low level alarm.

Some questions:
Any one else changing sides with a Marcland?
How often do you change?
How much of a pain is it?
How is your probe mounted?
Where is the control box mounted?
Is the solenoid/ plunger assembly moved or do you have two?
What type of barometer do you gave in the sugarhouse?
There is a chart some where for barometric pressure to boiling water?
Do you check the syrup with a hydrometer often?
Methods to set up the low level system?
How high do you set the temp alarm above syrup temp?

I did not get one of the cute $120 digital barometric to boiling point read outs yet.

It was recommended that you have a bypass to draw off syrup also, anyone build this feature in?

Any pictures of current set ups might help me. Thanks in advance! You guys that have used them tell me what you like and dont like about your installation.
All comments welcome.:)


Chris

[Brad W Wi]

I used 2 unions, 1/2 on each side and one of the halves on the draw off. The 1/2 of union has a plug in it. I also plumbed a drain valve in it incase of power failure. If you would like to talk about this more send me an E-mail and we can get on the telephone. I also have the gizzmo that tells you at what temp. water will boil at that day and time.

Brad W Wi bradw_wi@yahoo.com

[Brent]

Brad

I am getting a Marcland in a few weeks and would love to know more about how you work with this unit. Got any pictures by any chance ??

I also posted a note above about the temperature probe with barometric pressure compensation built in, that I picked up today. I intend to use this as a backup to the Marcland (belt and suspenders) and on the finishing pan.

The bit of playing I did with this device seem to show that it takes several seconds to respond so it would be too slow to put by the draw off valve and wait for it to show a temp change to stop the draw off. I think it will be perfect for the finishing pot where the whole batch is brought slowly to the correct temp.

[Brad W Wi]

I've a little more time right now. On mine I change sides daily. I use the unions to swithch from side to side no problem at all. Going down stream away from the evap. I next have a "T" with a manual valve on it in case of power outage. Next is the Marcland. So on a daily basis the entire unit is moved side to side' I use SS pipe on everything. Last year was my first with it and I had no problem with delays. I do draw off before it's syrup and I finish off on another tank that is gas fired where I can controll the heat better. I had to add wire to the probe (bell wire) and I mounted my control box on the wall. I add 4 or 5 tenths of a degree to my alarm. One thing I got from alot of people is, don't wander to far and keep an eye on it. I don't feel it's made to automate your operation but to help ( My thoughts). I don't have any pictures yet. Still working on that. One more thing I saw yor web site and see you keep bees as well. That is going to be my next project. Dumber than a box of rocks there. Maybe I can pick your brain there.

[Jim Brown]

Chris; I just put mine on Monday that I bought from Brian saturday.
I'll sent some pics to your home web site

Jim

[Brent]

thanks for the comments. It going to a v e r y , v e r y long month waiting for the new evap to show up.

I'll be glad to share share the beekeeping thing with you, but to paraphrase,
what I've learned about bees could fill a book. What I know I don't know could fill a library.

But to start
1) they do the honey thing when it's warm
2) they don't and you don't do it when it rains.
3) they do it all summer
4) they'll make it for you regardless of intervention or stupidity.

A bit different than making syrup, all at once in a few long days, in the cold and rain, with a raging furnace that threatens to burn every consumable within a quarter of a mile.

Then there's stings.
1st year 3
2nd year 6
last year 0
and really, they become less irritating the more you get.

Check out www.beesource.com a great forum like this where you can share and learn a lot.

[Sugarmaker]

Brad, Jim and Brent thanks for the comments, Looking forward to pictures. (they always are good)

Brad, I did not think about a union in the line, sounds like a good idea. I agree that this is not really to automate the process. I am looking for another "helper" in the sugar house and maybe the auto draw off will fill that bill.

Not sure which of us you were asking about the bees but yes Brent and I both have some. I have been keeping bees about 5 years and I sell most of the honey that they make. They will be working when ever they can for you. They need some attention and some care but they do pretty much the rest. I enjoy swarm catching the most. Find a good class and take it. Find a mentor if you can. Pick my brain as often as you need to. Its is time soon to start getting equipment (wooden ware) ready for bees

Jim,
Looking forward to the pictures Please send to my work email
chris_casbohm@lord.com If my mail box is not full?? I can view them at work.
Do you plan to change sides? That was quick installation! Did you buy the one with the alarms?

Brent,
We will be comparing notes on getting the draw off set up.

Chris

[sapman]

Chris,

I've had a Marcland for about 5 or 6 seasons. One of the best things I ever did, along with going with oil (despite the cost). It really is like having a helper do the drawing off for you, once you get the drawoff point dialled in. I usually finish right on the evaporator, so I do check with the hydrometer often, and all the time when starting. That's how I calibrate mine.

I plumbed in a tee with two valves, then a union to the solenoid valve, which I switch from side to side. That is the one thing I still want is a second solenoid valve. I also throttle the ball valve down so I'm not drawing too fast when it draws. This gives you nice, consistent, drawing, provided you keep ahead of foaming.

I used to have the control mounted on a post, which was a pain because sometimes I'd want to manually draw on the opposite side of the evaporator. So I broke down and bought the stand Leader makes to mount it on. It seemed kind of chincy at first (and over-priced), but has worked out nice. I also have their temp. probe holder, which has worked very well.

Hope this helps,
Tim

[Sugarmaker]

Had a nice chat with Brad today. His set up is very similar. thanks Brad!
Tim,
This sounds like about what I am looking for too,
You have two ball valves one for emergency draw off if electric goes out and one ball valve ahead of the Marcland to throttle the flow. I had not thought about controlling the flow. I have older pans and they have 3/4 inch dia. outlet port so I will need to go back up to the 1 inch dia at the Marcland solenoid. No Idea if I would have a flow problem? Does it dump to much and splash a lot?

Thanks for the tips.

On the mounting of the control box? I was thinking of mounting it above my steam hoods and maybe pivoting it from side to side over the hoods? How much steam and or heat can they stand? I was trying to align/position it so I could,
adjust the set points easily,
keep it out of the way,
Move it from side to side quickly,
and have it visible while firing.
What do you think? to much to ask?

Where is your stand? I assume on the floor next to the evaporator so you can move it? What height is the top of the box on the stand? Like at the top of the arch? I could do something like that too I have elect outlet under the evaporator near the blower so no cords to trip over.

I would like this to combine several of other producers (your) ideas in my set up.

I did jot down all the SST fittings to get a pricing on them.
I think I will mount the probe on a SST bracket at a angle into the pan . and keep the tip just off the bottom.

Thanks Everyone!:)

Chris

[brookledge]

Chris
I don't ever have to move my draw off unit because Ihave revolution pans. The only thing I need to do when reversing flow is move the probe which is held in place by a compresion fitting and is mounted on the top of the pan with a slight angle so that the end of the probe ends up in the middle of the section.
And again because I never need to move my control box I mounted it on the wall a few feet back from the evaporator. I would recomend mounting it some how so that you can move it from side to side. As far as a overiding it goes, if you have it mounted close enough just use the manual button which opens and closes it by a touch of the button. I would also recomend that you put in a tee with another valve in case of power loss.
I have a barometer mounted on the wall next to my control box
When Igot mine from Marcland it came with a chart that gave the boilng point based on the barometric pressure. I put that on the wall next to my control box. When I start the day off I will set the temp drawoff based on the barometric pressure and will also check it against the hydrometer. I will ajust it a little if necessary. Then from there I usually just keep an eye on the barometer as the day goes on and periodically check with the hydrometer.
As far as the low level alarm goes. You want to put it in the float box or somewhere the level doesn't jump around as much. I have a raised flue pan and on the side of the pan is a glass sight tube that is where I mounted my low level alarm and it works great there. The nice thing about it is that with a hood on the flue pan you can't see the level as easy so the probe helps out. I used 14 gauge romex wire as my probe for the low level alarm.
My high temp alarm I think is set at 3 degrees over the draw off temp. I believe mine is factory setup that way. I have never tried to change it. For me 3 degrees works well. About the only time I have to keep a close eye on things is when I reverse directions and also at start up. But once things get rolling it is pretty dependable.
I would never be with out one again.
http://www.brookledgesugarhouse.com/process.html
This is the only picture I have at the moment. The probe can be seen at the very top of the picture
Keith

[Brent]

I want to second the idea of a control valve of some kind before or after the Marcland. Last night I was playing with the digital thermometer that I mentioned in another thread and while I was comparing it to other thermometers I had I noticed a very considerable time lag. I have not played with the Marcland but I assume the thermocouple is in a stainless steel tube and that it will cause the same lag I saw.

What I did was start a pot of RO water on the heat and watched the temp rise.
For some reason I decided part way through to interupt the heating at about 160 degrees. The Acu-Rite oven thermometer stopped rising within a few seconds. The big probe on the maple digital unit was nearly 10 degrees behind the Acu-rite, but it continued to rise for almost 1 1/2 minutes after the heat went off. Before the Marcland got to 160, the Acu-rite was starting to tick back down to 158.

I would bet that if you let the Marcland go open wide when it started a draw off that it would start to dump some syrup that was below your target temp before it sensed the temp drop.

I repeat, I have not play with the Marcland but I assume it would respond in a similar way to the one I have.

So I think restricting the rate of draw off would allow some time for the Marcland to "catch up" to the temperature drop as cooler syrup came up the pan, and close down when it should. Experience will be the best teacher, as usual.

[Sugarmaker]

Keith, And Brent, Thanks for the ideas.
Keith the revolution type and some of the cross flow pans that draw off in one place are more ideal for the Auto draw off. I do want to have the flexibility to go to the other side if the sugarsand is building up.
Anyone know of a low cost quick disconnect that might work?? I will probably go with unions for the break points.

Chris

[brookledge]

Chris
I would use a standard 3 prong extension cord. Use the ground wire for the temp probe and the other 2 wires for the draw off solenoid.
That should work and you can make it any length you want with plugs. And then go with the idea of a unoon for the plumbing
Keith

[Sugarmaker]

Keith,
Sorry you lost me on the cord. I may be a little slow on the method you are suggesting for wiring the probe and the solenoid with the same extension cord?

Chris

[brookledge]

I forgort that the temp probe has two wires also. But what I was suggesting is that you have some type of cord with a plug on the probe and the selonoid so that when you want to switch sides you just unplug and go to the other side and plug in. It would save you from having to drag the stuff underneath the arch every time
Keith

[Sugarmaker]

Keith,
Yes, I have the idea. I agree the problem with changing sides needs to be set up so its easy and quick. That includes electrical and plumbing.
My control box should be here in a week or so.

Chris

[mcmp]

I want to second the idea of a control valve of some kind before or after the Marcland. Last night I was playing with the digital thermometer that I mentioned in another thread and while I was comparing it to other thermometers I had I noticed a very considerable time lag. I have not played with the Marcland but I assume the thermocouple is in a stainless steel tube and that it will cause the same lag I saw.

What I did was start a pot of RO water on the heat and watched the temp rise.
For some reason I decided part way through to interupt the heating at about 160 degrees. The Acu-Rite oven thermometer stopped rising within a few seconds. The big probe on the maple digital unit was nearly 10 degrees behind the Acu-rite, but it continued to rise for almost 1 1/2 minutes after the heat went off. Before the Marcland got to 160, the Acu-rite was starting to tick back down to 158.

I would bet that if you let the Marcland go open wide when it started a draw off that it would start to dump some syrup that was below your target temp before it sensed the temp drop.

I repeat, I have not play with the Marcland but I assume it would respond in a similar way to the one I have.

So I think restricting the rate of draw off would allow some time for the Marcland to "catch up" to the temperature drop as cooler syrup came up the pan, and close down when it should. Experience will be the best teacher, as usual.
You will find no lag with the Marcland. Marcland does not use a thermocouple. Marcland uses a RTD Sensor (resistance temperature device). Very accurate, high quality compared to thermocouples.
Read about it here;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resistance_thermometer

My Marcland tracks dead on.

Paul

[Brent]

The YSTEC thermometer I was testing has and RTD as well.

I guess the difference is how the RTD is housed. The YSTEC has it burried in the end of a stainless tube that is exactly 1/4" diameter, and who know how it is seated in the end. Without good contact to transfer the heat ....

In any case I've got a new unit coming with the barometric compensation built in. We'll see how the new one does. I'll try the same test.

[Sugarmaker]

OK experts does the Lapierre probe/ Draw off system respond as well? I now have varying information and need help! I know we are changing horse here ( marcland discussion to Lapierre) but talking with a Lapierre dealer he says his probe response is a little better than the Marcland? Both companies want to sell these but which one has good, better, best response time? My guess is that both would be faster than me:)

Chris

[sapman]

Chris,

I've always assumed my Marcland responds very well, and seems very sensitive. But I never have done a thorough test. I have no idea if the Lapierre is made in Canada or not, but it is VERY nice to give Bob Crooks (manufacturer in NY state), or the guys at Leader, a call whenever I have a question.

As for the stand, I'd say it puts the box at about 3-4' high.

The issue with not throttling down the drawoff, is that it dumps all at once, and if you boil shallow, I think you could get dangerously low if left wide open. Also, you'll get nice, consistent draws, with temps only fluctuating a few tenths of a degree. But you do need to keep a close eye, as I've had a couple times when the ball valve plugs with niter/scale, so you have to open it wide for a couple seconds.

Tim

[Sugarmaker]

Tim,
Thanks. Yes support for service work could be a issue. Yes the Lapierre is made in Canada.
Chris

[Brent]

If your curious check out www.ystec.com to see it this looks like the one Lapierre is selling.

It is made in New Brunswick and he lists Lapierre as one of his distributors.

[Sugarmaker]

Brent,
I looked at the Ystec unit. It is the gray box unit correct?
No this is not the Lapierre draw off that I saw. Would like to find someone using the Lapierre unit. Has some nice features too.
Chris

[Brent]

Chris

I have seen a few Marcland units in differenct shops and every one has been in the grey plastic electric boxes made by Carlon for residential wiring. Its a good solid box rated for power entrances ... which means outdoor waterproof use.

I have only seen the digital thermometer from YSTEC and it is in what looks to be a custom molded box. The picture on the web site does not look like Carlon.
Might even be a metal enclosure ... hard to tell.

[Sugarmaker]

Brent,
Looked over your web site again very nice pictures! Did the bees get out during the January thaw?

Chris

[Brent]

Not this year Chris . but on Jan 14 I think it was, of last year there were some
foraging for flowers !!!!
Dead Christmas poinsettias were about all they would have point

Thanks

[Sugarmaker]

Back on the subject!
If I mount the Marcland box on one wall which is within reach of the right side of the rig, am I going to regret that when I am drawing off on the other side and the control box is across the evaporator and across the room?? The stand thing for the control box just seems like a lot of moving of more stuff, and more risk to damage the brain. I have a good spot that would OK 50% of the time for adjusting and manual draw off on the right side of the rig.

Do you guys use the Marcland to manually draw off by opening the solenoid, with the open, closed, auto switch? What I am trying to find out is, Do you need the controls right there next to the draw off side? Or can you get used to having them somewhat remote? It seems it would be kind of like having a TV with no remote control! We did it for a long time that way, but!

Chris

[Brent]

Chris

I don't know how it gets used ( yet ) but

String a wire across the roof of the shack were you would like to have access to the control box.

Take a stick maybe a foot or so long and hang it from the wire with a couple of cup hooks.

Mount the Marcland control on a bit of plywood and drop a wire from each end of the stick to each top corner of the wood.

It will always face the same way and can be slid to where ever you want it.
nothing on the floor to trip on, but still risk of brain damage.

PS I am going to try one of the YSTEC units. At $999 with barometric compensation compared to $1400 for the Marcland, I think it's worth a shot.

[Sugarmaker]

Brent thats a good idea. Still thinking on this end too.
When is that new evaporator going to show up? Soon I hope, so you have time to get it in place and tuned up. You have hoods too right? Are you going to have a preheater too? You will love the hoods after boiling in the sauna:)

Chris

[Brent]

Promised delivery is the weekend of Feb 25.

Let's see
new evap
new experimental RO
maybe a UV
1500 gallons of new storage
rebuilding the ancient filter press
new auto draw off
moving firewood to new sugar shack
and .... moving from the back porch into a
sugar shack
exhausted just thinking of it.

like my signature says "hobby farm" is an oxymoron.

[jemsklein]

wow brent you are really upgrading this year hope you get some very good runs

[gmcooper]

Chris the Marclands i have seen have the control box mounted on one wall with the wire feeds going over head and droped down with enough wire availble to reach either side.. As for manual draw off all i have seen have a separate ball valve (just like what you would already have) to use as manual valve. Also used to clean pans etc.

[brookledge]

Chris
I use my manual overide once and a while. With my set up it's always with in reach for me with my revolution pan. What I'd recommend to start with is to just have a tee on your pipe coming off the pan and have a 1/4 turn ball valve along with the auto drawoff. That way you can open the valve if you need to and then after you see how it operates for you. If you want to set it up a a later time to have the manual switch on both sides you could do that at a later time.
Keith

[Brent]

I thought I was lined up to get one of the YSTEC automatic draw offs with barometric compensation when I learned just tonight that the current model is sold out and a new model will be available in a few weeks. The new one will be the same price range as the old one ie under $ 1000 but it will ALSO be proportional. This just keeps getting better.

[Sugarmaker]

Brent you are going to have some NICE toys!

Still looking at the Marcland and getting more ideas on how this will work. (takes me awhile to figure things out) Talked to the dealer several times and he set me straight on some of the same ideas I had about how to operate with one of these 'helping' in the sugarhouse.
Still learning!

Chris

[Sugarmaker]

Folks,
Thanks for all the ideas and help setting this unit up. I have posted some pictures on the photobucket (album Marcland) of the fittings and set up I decided on.
I will let you know how it works in about a week or so!

(Also there is a picture of Marly our granddaughter at 1 year old, check here out having fun with her cake!)

Currently building a dumping station for the Marcland, and a double filter station for the cone filters. ( got to keep doing something for potential improvements!)

Gary R stopped today and we had a good visit in the sugarhouse at about 15 degrees!

Regards,
Chris

[jemsklein]

chris what are the hand winches in the back for

[Sugarmaker]

JEMS,
I use these to raise the steam stacks off the hoods. I raise the stacks about 2 feet. Then I can easily move the hoods off the evaporator for cleaning the pans. (Good question.)
They are boat type winches and are about $20 at Harbor Freight. They move real slow and hold the weight without a need to lock them. This saves me having to get several other folks over to help get the hoods off!

Chris

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Chris,

Just curious what you are going to do about the drawoff coupling when you switch sides, are you going to plug it off??

[Sugarmaker]

Brandon,
Yes I have a plug in the portion of the second union and can swap that to the opposite side of the auto draw off.

Are you making syrup?

Chris

[Gary R]

Chris, I thought of something after I seen your setup. I think you might of thought of it but, for you to change sides you will need to drain your pan or plug your port from the inside of pan. A valve between your union and pan would allow you to change sides while boiling if you needed.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Exactly the point I was trying to make, just a nice setup and I was trying to go around the point indirectly and not criticize his setup.

[Sugarmaker]

Gary, Brandon,
You guys are right on the mark but the darn fittings were hanging out so far now that I choose not to put another valve in the line. Brian the dealer even recommended that too. I think I could have made this more compact with copper fittings, but again, I like the stainless, it shows real well. Also I always drain and change sides when the evaporator is cold. Just a habit I guess. I will let you know how this works if it warms up this spring.
Thanks for the comments, I really appreciate the views of other sugar makers. I try to pass on ideas to others also.

Regards,
Chris

[Sugarmaker]

Gary,
As we spoke I changed sides my standard way today. I had the pans drained in buckets to avoid freezing in the rig, then I removed the Marcland, put in the dummy plug and moved the Marcland and the probe to the other side. Seemed to work OK, for the first time.
I also relocated the probe to be closer to the draw off box. We will see if that makes a difference?
Gary,
Jump back in here and let us know how the BAT is preforming! I would love to see some pictures of it loaded with sap and the front wheels off the ground!! Great talking with you the other night. Did you check out my tubing on Knapp road? Was there much ice in the containers?

I did check a container on Carrberry Rd and the tubing was frozen solid! Not sure how long it will take to thaw out?

I was going to go dump the ice tonight but have a great sore throat:( so stayed home played in the sugarhouse and moved firewood.

Chris

[Gary R]

Chris, thanks for the subtle prod. We did check out your Knapp rd. setup yesterday afternoon. Those are some fantastic looking trees. I did look into 1 container and I would guess about 4-6 inches of solid ice. What type of sugar content do you get out of those? And, how is the laterals held to the tree. I didn't want to probe to close.

The BAT mobile has been working great. I've only had to collect 3 times so far. I do have to go up a trail that is at least 20% slope and the front end has stayed on the ground. Mud is the biggest problem which it handles fine. I put a spool in the rear end when I built it. My tractor is the other option but I hate shifting and jumping on and off it all the time. I can be lazy at times.

Enjoyed our conversation the other night. Thanks.

Gary

[markct]

i just have a tiny homemade evap so i havent switched drawoffs or anything, but have been curious how this works,i understand how you move the drawoff point but what do you do about feeding in the sap from a different location? also what is different about these special pans that never need to change the drawoff?

[Sugarmaker]

Gary,
Glad to see you back in the hunt here! We need you! You have some great ideas and may even get some of us making birch syrup here in NW PA when the maple season is done! Also I see report that you are getting to some other sugarhouses this year too. Keep that Yeany guy in line!

The laterals are not fastened to the trees they just run past the tree. And then you pull them till you eyeballs bulge out. The drops do help hold them in position a little too. I have not had any problems with fittings coming apart this year on the "mainlines".
Sugar content has been holding at 2%.

Markct,
Not sure of you set up but the theory of changing sides is to allow the sap to "scrub" the sugarsand and keep it from building up. Some of the cross flows do not change sides but they do sometimes have extra pans that they can change. And then clean the sugarsand while the pan is off the rig and the clean pan is boiling. Then there are some rigs like the revolution pans that are a combination of cross flow and reverse flow and they change flow of syrup with valves. The object is to keep the pan from getting a build up of sugarsand scale coating the bottom and keeping the syrup from touching the pan this could cause the pan to scorch under the sugarsand scale.

Someone else may be able to explain it better than I.

I think I have a handle on the Marcland temp probe location. I moved the probe about 18 inches in front of the draw off and it seemed to work OK. Need several more hours of boiling with it to prove out the optimum location for the probe.

BTW. I got a big thumbs up from the CFO tonight at dinner, on the tubing and the draw off. She asked why we didn't get these years ago? Made my day:) Just gotta Love um!

Regards,
Chris