Hot/warm water in shack

[BoerBoel]

I'm looking for a way to get (low cost) hot/warm water in my shack for general clean up. Not high volume maybe between 10 - 50 gallons.
2 ideas that I was tossing around were...
Using some setup of coiled copper tubing around/behind the stack. Since this is glowing quite often I thought the radiating heat could be used to heat the water that would be circulating constantly into a barrel. Concerns that I thought of with this setup would be cooling the temperature in my stack affecting the draft and being able to remove the coils when not needed and being able to bend the tubing tight enough around 1/2 of the stack.
http://mapletrader.com/community/attachment.php?attachmentid=22618&stc=1
Using a new AC condenser and place it over my sap pan (2x4 sap pan) making use of the rising heat/steam from the pan and hopefully getting the heat transferred to the water in the condenser. Once again this would be constantly circulating into a barrel.
http://mapletrader.com/community/attachment.php?attachmentid=22617&stc=1
I have estimated the cost of either setup to be about $50-80 (I already have a Aquatec 660 pump to use for circulation).

Any thoughts if either of these setups would work or would the output of hot/warm water not be worth it?
Any suggestion on some other way of accomplishing hot/warm water on a budget?

[wobbletop]

For 1. some are using that method to preheat sap before entering pan. I'd check on the maximum water temp allowed by the pump and make sure not to exceed it.

For 2. I'd be more worried about the vapor condensing on the coil and dripping back into the pan.

[NhShaun]

Lots of people do something similar to preheat their sap with good success for the price. I believe you need to make sure there is a vent in the top of the line incase the flow stops for some reason. Otherwise the water could boil and burst, which would be pretty dangerous. I think the key is to make the coil somehow adjustable to pull it away from the stack when needed. I have seen people using this concept on their woodstoves and the hot water naturally circulates if you plumb it properly.

I wouldn't put a condenser above my pans, in fear it may drip some not necessarily 'food safe' stuff into my pans. That and just regular old condensation adding a little more water to your boil.

[BoerBoel]

A friend of mine had suggested the AC condenser idea. I hadn't thought of something not food safe dripping off or the condensation dripping back into the pan off of the condenser. So probably not the best idea.

For the copper tubing...
What would be the best way to bend several 180 degree bends in the tubing?
Would it cause any cooling in the stack affecting draft?

I was thinking about wrapping the tubing 1/2 way around the stack. But I'm not sure how I would keep the tubing in place but not touching the stack.
In the (poor) drawing below, would I need a vent? If the pump stopped for some reason would it just not boil dry and not build pressure since the output is not sealed?
How many loops would be enough? In the drawing, it would be a 20 ft piece of tubing with each piece around the stack being about 2 ft.
What size tubing? Would 1/4 inch tubing be too small? 3/8?? 1/2"?

http://mapletrader.com/community/attachment.php?attachmentid=22619&stc=1

[buckeye gold]

I am not sure how this would work for an evaporator, but here's an idea. My home wood stove is a big steel stove and it has a 20+ gallon steel water reservoir welded right to the outside of it and it will heat water to 165 degrees ( I've checked it). I wouldn't weld a tank on the arch, but maybe just a steel tank on a stand right up against the back and just under the flue pipe would heat up some water. My stove is bricked and it still heats the water. That tank has a valve on it also.

[BoerBoel]

I am not sure how this would work for an evaporator, but here's an idea. My home wood stove is a big steel stove and it has a 20+ gallon steel water reservoir welded right to the outside of it and it will heat water to 165 degrees ( I've checked it). I wouldn't weld a tank on the arch, but maybe just a steel tank on a stand right up against the back and just under the flue pipe would heat up some water. My stove is bricked and it still heats the water. That tank has a valve on it also.
Interesting idea. Unfortunately, I don't think it will work since my arch is insulated and bricked so not that much heat coming off of it. The stack puts a lot of heat off though but I do not have room to mount a raise steel tank near the stack.

[buckeye gold]

Interesting idea. Unfortunately, I don't think it will work since my arch is insulated and bricked so not that much heat coming off of it. The stack puts a lot of heat off though but I do not have room to mount a raise steel tank near the stack.

I know, thought of that too, but thought I'd throw it out there. My arch is insulated but it still gets pretty warm, but it won't burn you if you touch it. However, you wouldn't want to hold your hand on it for long.

Thinking about it more, I don't think you'd need to rap around the stack, just a straight piece of copper running along it for a couple feet would get really hot fast.

[BoerBoel]

IThinking about it more, I don't think you'd need to rap around the stack, just a straight piece of copper running along it for a couple feet would get really hot fast.
Are you suggesting to run the copper parallel to the pipe for 3-4 ft?
What about the solder joints? Would they melt if too close to the stack?
It might be easier to get the straight pipe to "sit" away from the stack.

[buckeye gold]

I'm just throwing out thoughts, not sure what would work. I don't think solder would melt.

[TapTapTap]

I had posted earlier this year about on-demand tankless water heaters. I got a quote that came in over $4,000 so I decided to stick with the small electric hot water heater tank that I have, at least for now.

Ken

[Pdiamond]

My plan is to eventually get a tankless hot water heater from a sporting goods store. This will be heated by a twenty pound propane tank. I'll source the water through potable water hose from the house as needed. then drain everything at night so it does not freeze.

[BoerBoel]

eventually get a tankless hot water heater
That would be nice but over my budget.

[amasonry]

what are you doing for hot water now? how about a pot and burner. I use the permeate that comes out of the preheater.

[BoerBoel]

what are you doing for hot water now?
I'm not doing anything for hot water at the moment other than dragging a pail from the house to the shack. I thought about installing a hot water tap to the side of the house and running several hoses to the shack (1 set of hoses for cold water the other for hot water) but I thought that might just cause problems with freezing or crack hoses. Also there would be a lot of wasted water waiting for the hot water to make it to the shack each time I opened the tap in the shack.

I don't have a preheater. Just a head tank to the float box on the sap pan. How would you get permeate from a preheater?
There is a little room for a kettle/pot beside the stack but I was hoping for more volume that a kettle/pot at a time.

[mainebackswoodssyrup]

Preheaters sit inside of a hood and there are drip channels under the preheater and/or a channel along the edge of the hood to catch all the condensation and channel it to the outside of the hood. Free and clean hot water. Some guys put a circulator pump like on a boiler inline with the condensate drain and pump it to a storage tank for cleanup and storage of a lot of hot water.

[amasonry]

so for daily cleanup, I use the hot water from the preheater ( hood). I get 10 gallons there. some times when bottling I will need more that's where the 20 gallon pot comes in. I came across a gas water heater off a job. it is a house unit and bought an all-in-one pump/pressure tank just never seem to need all that. in all had 200 dollars into it. on-demand is nice , but expensive. just my two cents

[johnallin]

I get about 4 gal per hour from the condensate draining out of the steam hood, having a preheater with a drip pan under it also adds to the hood condensate. It all runs into a 35 gal horizontal tank with spigot. All the hot water we need, and I mean hot!

One of the benefits of a tight-fitting hood.

[maple flats]

I use a 3.1 gpm tankless water heater. Propane fired, I'm on my 3rd one. I bought my last one for $105-110, in 2018. At that time there were lots available for under $125. I see they are now far more costly, here's one that would do fine but it's only 2 gpm. https://www.amazon.com/Tankless-Capacity-Multiple-Protection-Scenarios/dp/B09KRDBMVQ/ref=sr_1_14?adgrpid=1342504369107995&hvadid=83906612910170&hvbmt=bb&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=105689&hvnetw=o&hvqmt=b&hvtargid=kwd-83906963985227%3Aloc-190&hydadcr=18837_10470189&keywords=ez+101+tankless+water+heater+propane&qid=1643678213&sr=8-14
My first one was only 1.3 gpm, but it heated well, I only replaced it because 1.3 gpm seemed to take too long. With my 3.1 gpm it works good. My second unit failed when I forgot to drain it one cold night.

[BoerBoel]

A tankless water heater would be a good idea. However, my problem then would be water supply and having to deal with several cold/frozen hoses every night.

[Cjadamec]

A tankless water heater would be a good idea. However, my problem then would be water supply and having to deal with several cold/frozen hoses every night.

A copper coil on the stack will give you plenty of hot water. I use one as a sap pre-heater and it keeps up with my pan to the tune of about 10-13 gallons an hour.

I'm sure it could easily have a 55 gallon drum of water warm to hot by the end of a boil if I just recirculated the water thru the coil and back into the barrel.

You just need to plumb it in some way that when you aren't using the coil to heat water it is open on both ends and all the water drains out of it.

[BoerBoel]

You just need to plumb it in some way that when you aren't using the coil to heat water it is open on both ends and all the water drains out of it.
Would wrapping a roll of soft copper tubing around the stack be better/easier than trying to wrap it around half of the stack and looping back (C shape) so it could be easily removed?
If going all the way around the stack, would suspending it from higher up work on giving it constant slope to drain at end of day (kind of like hanging a slinky from the rafters)? Any issues with it sitting there dry while boiling?
If only going half way around the stack if could be moved out of the way at the end of the day and tilted/rocked to drain the coil.
How long of a tube would you think would be enough by the stack? 20'?

[Cjadamec]

My coils stays on the stack all the time. I used 3/8" copper coil readily available at your local big box store.

My coil only takes up about 1 foot of length on an 8" stack. I use quick connect fittings on the tube so I can just disconnect from the coil when not being used.

[BoerBoel]

My coils stays on the stack all the time. I used 3/8" copper coil readily available at your local big box store.

My coil only takes up about 1 foot of length on an 8" stack. I use quick connect fittings on the tube so I can just disconnect from the coil when not being used.
Sounds like you have about 25 ft wrapped around your 8" stack. Is it wrapped tightly around the stack or how much of a gap between the coil and the stack?
What did you use to bend the pipe around the stack? I figure if I bend by hand I'll just kink the pipe.
Any issues with cooling down your stack temperature or affecting your draw on the arch?

[Cjadamec]

The soft copper coil will easily form to the stack by hand. I just wrapped it as tight as I could. It can kink if you are too rough with it but it's pretty easy to work with.

I used a small piece of metal plumbers banding to make a clip to hold the ends in place. Just screwed the clip into the stack.

I want to say I used a 25 foot length of tubing. There is about 1 foot of tubing sticking out from the stack for connections.

There is no possible way for you to remove enough heat from the stack with a coil like this to impact the draw or arch. The copper tubing is picking up mostly radiant \ convective heat from the stack not conductive heat from the stack it self.

[BoerBoel]

I want to say I used a 25 foot length of tubing.
How are you feeding your sap through your preheater? I'm guessing gravity. This would allow the sap to stay in contact with the tubing for a while so it heats up. Being that I am trying to heat up water that is being pumped (shurflo pump) through the tubing I would expect the water to be in contact with the tubing for a shorter period of time and heating up slower than your sap.
To help combat this, do you think using 40-50 ft of tubing would help?
Would a smaller/large diameter tube help heat up the water? I thought maybe 1/2" might slow the water flow down a bit since the connection at the pump is 3/8". And I was hoping that I could then use standard 1/2" connection fittings.

Sorry for all the questions. I'm trying to figure this out before spending money to find out that it will not heat up the water enough.

[maple flats]

I deal with mine, using a diaphragm pump, mine is 120V, but 12v are good too. My pump does 3.1 gpm. I use permeate from my RO, but with no RO, just haul clean water from home. While boiling freezing should not be an issue. Plumb the water heater so both the supply and outlet side will drain when drain valves are opened. As long as you don't forget to drain the tankless heater will last for years.

[Cjadamec]

I use a pump for my preheat setup. It's a cheap knockoff version of a sureflo from Amazon. Think I spent about $15 on the pump. Powered by a 12v power supply I had laying around. Will also run for hours on a lawn tractor sized battery.

I wouldn't worry about flow rates so much. I think my pump is good for about 1 gpm at next to 0 head pressure.

You can go with bigger tubing if it makes things easier but it will quickly get more expensive.

The idea behind this type of setup is to have a tank of cold water that you make warm while you are evaporating. The tank will then be ready to use and all warmed up when you are done.

While the evaporator is hot the coil must be either empty and both ends open OR have water continuously flowing thru it.

The water will turn to steam and get extremely hot very quickly if laft in the coil with no flow.

[aamyotte]

How are you feeding your sap through your preheater? I'm guessing gravity. This would allow the sap to stay in contact with the tubing for a while so it heats up. Being that I am trying to heat up water that is being pumped (shurflo pump) through the tubing I would expect the water to be in contact with the tubing for a shorter period of time and heating up slower than your sap.
To help combat this, do you think using 40-50 ft of tubing would help?
Would a smaller/large diameter tube help heat up the water? I thought maybe 1/2" might slow the water flow down a bit since the connection at the pump is 3/8". And I was hoping that I could then use standard 1/2" connection fittings.

Sorry for all the questions. I'm trying to figure this out before spending money to find out that it will not heat up the water enough.
I preheat my sap by having run through the copper coil around the stack by gravity. I pump to a 5 gallon pail hung up high that has a bulkhead fitting in the bottom of it which has a valve and pex tubing connected to the copper coil. I adjust the flow with the valve. You could do the same with cold water and have it discharge the warm water to a barrel. By adjusting the valve you can adjust how warm the water is.