Just a few RO questions

[Swingpure]

I have finally bit the bullet and will be building a budget DYI RO.

It has an Aquatec 8800 pump, good for 200 GDP. I also, for the moment have two 150 GPD membranes. I may get a third membrane. This setup is what I could afford, I realize a more powerful pump and higher GPD membranes would be superior.

I will have two 55 gallon barrels one for the raw sap and concentrate and one for the permeate. The plan is to fill the first barrel with fresh sap around 3 pm, run the RO for 8 hours, returning the concentrate to the same barrel. At the end of the 8 hours, I would put the concentrate (25 gallons) into 5 gallon pails and store it in snowbanks near the evaporator. I would then refill the raw sap barrel and run the RO overnight and then take the concentrate (25 gallons) out again in pails to the evaporator. I would then boil the 50 gallons of concentrate.

First question, are there any fatal flaws in the plan.

Can I process 50 gallons of sap in 8 hours through 150 GDP membranes?

Having more membranes just increases the concentration of the sap? (4% concentration with one membrane, 6% with 2, 8% with 3?)

If I had enough sap for a third consecutive run, should I flush (clean) the membranes after the second run, or can I do it after the third?

Thanks

Gary

[bill m]

Fatal flaws? yes. Storing your concentrate overnight in a snowbank is not a good idea. Not cold enough. It would be ok for sap but not concentrate. With the slower feed rate of your pump you should use a separate barrel for your concentrate and do a double pass, not recirculate. Also your membranes should be rinsed after every days run of sap.

[Swingpure]

Fatal flaws? yes. Storing your concentrate overnight in a snowbank is not a good idea. Not cold enough. It would be ok for sap but not concentrate. With the slower feed rate of your pump you should use a separate barrel for your concentrate and do a double pass, not recirculate. Also your membranes should be rinsed after every days run of sap.

That is surprising to me, that sitting out in freezing temperatures, mostly overnight, for about 10 hours, in or on the snow, would not be cold enough to keep concentrate from spoiling.

Volume of concentrate is almost more important than being super concentrated. I would like at least 40 gallons of concentrate (if available) to boil. If I cannot store the first run, for 10 hours out in the cold, then I have made a big mistake.



For me the big reason for the RO is to reduce the firewood required. Time saved boiling is a bonus.

[carls47807]

Your 4% concentrate will be fine if kept cold for 10 hours. It will have virtually no temp rise from the RO, so if you process it cold and keep it cold you will be fine.

A 150gpd membrane will process about 3 gph from 2 to 4% sugar. Two would process around 6 gph. If you want another pass above 4% it will be very very slow.

[johnallin]

http://mapletrader.com/community/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by bill m http://mapletrader.com/community/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://mapletrader.com/community/showthread.php?p=398653#post398653)
Fatal flaws? yes. Storing your concentrate overnight in a snowbank is not a good idea. Not cold enough. It would be ok for sap but not concentrate. With the slower feed rate of your pump you should use a separate barrel for your concentrate and do a double pass, not recirculate. Also your membranes should be rinsed after every days run of sap.



http://mapletrader.com/community/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by swingpure"
That is surprising to me, that sitting out in freezing temperatures, mostly overnight, for about 10 hours, in or on the snow, would not be cold enough to keep concentrate from spoiling.

if you don't like the answer, you shouldn't ask the question...

[Swingpure]

if you don't like the answer, you shouldn't ask the question...

I appreciate all advice and tips, I just found it surprising, it was not what I was expecting from what I had previously read.

[Swingpure]

Your 4% concentrate will be fine if kept cold for 10 hours. It will have virtually no temp rise from the RO, so if you process it cold and keep it cold you will be fine.

A 150gpd membrane will process about 3 gph from 2 to 4% sugar. Two would process around 6 gph. If you want another pass above 4% it will be very very slow.

Thank you.

The RO unit will be kept and operated in a heated garage, kept to about 38° F (3° C) and then the concentrate will head outside in expected below freezing temperatures. This 25 gallons of concentrate should all be boiling in an hour or so after the evaporator starts. The second batch of 25 gallons will start to be boiled about 4 hours after being processed.

All of the components should arrive from Amazon in the first couple weeks of January and I will build it then.

[LMP Maple]

Time is your enemy. From the moment that the sap leaves the tree the microbes are at work they want the sugar as much as you do. When you are working a full-time job and dealing with all that life will throw at you during the season time is the enemy. I have had syrup made by people that store the sap they collect all week and boil on the weekends, sounds great doesn't it? It has a 'different' flavor and color. We all do what we can to make this work and I applaud anyone that gets into this hobby or is lucky enough to make a living at this. There is a reason that most sugar makers I know have a glazed look in their eyes from mid Feb to April, they don't sleep, they process as fast as they can and they don't leave R/O ed sap for long.
The best advice I can give you is to do what makes sense for you in year one, you will see the quality of the sap change as it is stored. I bought an r/o that matches the boil rate of my rig. I will r/o for and hour then fire the rig up and boil as I r/o into my head tank my goal is to process the sap as fast as I can. I have the advantage of oil and can process small or large amounts nightly as needed.
You will make some nice stuff I have no doubt. I do agree that your storage times may present a problem particularly toward the end of the season. I learned a lot by going to open houses when we could do that and asking a lot of questions about their operations. We all love to talk sugaring. The best tasting syrup in my opinion always came from the guys that processed fast and did not let their sap sit for long. That being said I have yet to meet a sugarmaker who did not think that his/her stuff was the best stuff in their particular state. You will love the R/O and getting it now was a good idea. I would not stress out about it too much stick with your plan and see how it goes. One thing is for sure you will find many ways to improve for the next season. Write down what worked well and what did not and then improve.

[Swingpure]

Time is your enemy. From the moment that the sap leaves the tree the microbes are at work they want the sugar as much as you do. When you are working a full-time job and dealing with all that life will throw at you during the season time is the enemy. I have had syrup made by people that store the sap they collect all week and boil on the weekends, sounds great doesn't it? It has a 'different' flavor and color. We all do what we can to make this work and I applaud anyone that gets into this hobby or is lucky enough to make a living at this. There is a reason that most sugar makers I know have a glazed look in their eyes from mid Feb to April, they don't sleep, they process as fast as they can and they don't leave R/O ed sap for long.
The best advice I can give you is to do what makes sense for you in year one, you will see the quality of the sap change as it is stored. I bought an r/o that matches the boil rate of my rig. I will r/o for and hour then fire the rig up and boil as I r/o into my head tank my goal is to process the sap as fast as I can. I have the advantage of oil and can process small or large amounts nightly as needed.
You will make some nice stuff I have no doubt. I do agree that your storage times may present a problem particularly toward the end of the season. I learned a lot by going to open houses when we could do that and asking a lot of questions about their operations. We all love to talk sugaring. The best tasting syrup in my opinion always came from the guys that processed fast and did not let their sap sit for long. That being said I have yet to meet a sugarmaker who did not think that his/her stuff was the best stuff in their particular state. You will love the R/O and getting it now was a good idea. I would not stress out about it too much stick with your plan and see how it goes. One thing is for sure you will find many ways to improve for the next season. Write down what worked well and what did not and then improve.

Thanks for the tips and advice.

I will collect sap everyday. I guess the best of plans get changed, but my plan is to collect the sap at 3 pm, have the first 50 gallons in the RO by 3:30 pm, put the concentrate in pails at 11:30 pm, stored outside in freezing temperatures and in the evaporator at 8 am. So the first 50 gallons will be 17 hours old. The second 50 gallons will be raw sap for about 8 hours, in the RO for 8 hours and concentrate for 4 hours.

If I am getting overrun with sap, I will collect more than the 100 gallons and have a third run in the morning and have a second boil later in the afternoon.

Lots to learn, especially since I have never seen a drop of sap drop into a bucket, or run down a line, in real life. I will try and prepare the best I can and I will try and enjoy it. Goodness knows I cannot be more excited for the season to start.

[darkmachine]

This might sound naive but what about purchasing a used chest freezer, a large one holes about 180 gallons, install a vessel of some sort and pump your concentrate into that? Maybe even let it go through a whole house UV sterilizer unit. I know I have had good success extending the life of raw sap by filtering and then processing it through a UV lamp(mine is a Grimm branded lamp setup). This is the first year for me to have an RO and I plan on all my concentrate passing through the UV lamp on its way to my feed tank. I guess i'll let you know how it works out in April, lol.

[fireant911]

I have finally bit the bullet and will be building a budget DYI RO.

It has an Aquatec 8800 pump, good for 200 GDP. I also, for the moment have two 150 GPD membranes. I may get a third membrane. This setup is what I could afford, I realize a more powerful pump and higher GPD membranes would be superior...

My very first post here so be gentle! Having moved from Alabama to Michigan's Upper Peninsula in Sept 2020, I had my first opportunity of tapping and making syrup last Spring. After three boiling sessions, I quickly came to the conclusion that there has to be a better way! I wanted a mobile unit so I built one on a cart. Also, I included a UV sterilizer that will (hopefully) do two things: sterilize, of course and maybe raise the temperature of the sap just a bit to the minimum temp required. I would love to include a picture of my 'attempt' but apparently I am too new here and cannot get a picture to load nor can I include it as an attachment??? Swingpure, I hope that it is okay that I piggybacked on your thread as I see that your proposed setup is not vastly different than mine and I really, really wanted to include a picture.

[markgm]

Why not run the pump overnight?

[Swingpure]

My very first post here so be gentle! Having moved from Alabama to Michigan's Upper Peninsula in Sept 2020, I had my first opportunity of tapping and making syrup last Spring. After three boiling sessions, I quickly came to the conclusion that there has to be a better way! I wanted a mobile unit so I built one on a cart. Also, I included a UV sterilizer that will (hopefully) do two things: sterilize, of course and maybe raise the temperature of the sap just a bit to the minimum temp required. I would love to include a picture of my 'attempt' but apparently I am too new here and cannot get a picture to load nor can I include it as an attachment??? Swingpure, I hope that it is okay that I piggybacked on your thread as I see that your proposed setup is not vastly different than mine and I really, really wanted to include a picture.

I would love to see your setup. If you use an apple product and have iCloud, you can copy a link from iCloud and paste it in a thread. The cart sounds cool. I am for the moment will be setting it up in my heated garage. It would be great to RO right beside the evaporator.

[Swingpure]

Why not run the pump overnight?

My goal is to process 50 gallons from 3 pm to 11 pm and another 50 gallons from 11 pm until 7 am. If I am getting overrun with sap, I will do a little more (25 gallons) from 7 am until 11 am.

I am starting to move towards having a separate concentrate barrel. I will have to learn how fast in reality my RO unit processes 50 gallons of sap.

[DRoseum]

I built my RO in a cooler that has a handle and wheels.
Its mobile and insulated (with a heater control) so I can leave it outside by my evaporator all season. It also has a level sensor to turn on and off automatically to give me a head start on the heavy sap runs before I get off work. Video below.

https://youtu.be/9_Eq_sq6Tp0


My very first post here so be gentle! Having moved from Alabama to Michigan's Upper Peninsula in Sept 2020, I had my first opportunity of tapping and making syrup last Spring. After three boiling sessions, I quickly came to the conclusion that there has to be a better way! I wanted a mobile unit so I built one on a cart. Also, I included a UV sterilizer that will (hopefully) do two things: sterilize, of course and maybe raise the temperature of the sap just a bit to the minimum temp required. I would love to include a picture of my 'attempt' but apparently I am too new here and cannot get a picture to load nor can I include it as an attachment??? Swingpure, I hope that it is okay that I piggybacked on your thread as I see that your proposed setup is not vastly different than mine and I really, really wanted to include a picture.

[fireant911]

I would love to see your setup...
I would love to share them but it looks like the ability to post pictures is still not working. I can describe it though! The front of the cart holds an elevated five-gallon bucket which feeds to the Aquatech pump, then to a sediment filter, to a UV sterilizer, and then to four RO filters. The front of the machine's base is hinged so that I can store refractometers and other pieces of equipment. The rear section that has the RO filters is removable thereby allowing any maintenance of the filters. I will keep checking to see when the ability to include a picture is restored and I will post it.

[maple flats]

If storing the concentrate for 10 hrs or so in a snow bank, I suggest you only concentrate it to 3% sugar, then closer to when you boil, take it to 4-4.5%. You need to realize, when you remove water from the sap, you are concentrating the microbes along with the sugar. The microbes feed on the sugar, as they feed you lose some sweet, and get darker syrup. Concentrate at 4% or above should be boiled soon after concentrating.
One alternative is bring the concentrate to a boil for 15-30 minutes, then let it cool and then store it in the evaporator. The boiling will kill off the microbes. If freezing weather expected, drain the pan into a bucket with a good taper to allow for freezing, you could then put it in your snow bank, or bring it into an unheated garage or other minimally heated location, cover it so nothing can get to it.

[Skeller001]

what happens if you freeze your concentrate after RO in a chest freezer?

[Swingpure]

If storing the concentrate for 10 hrs or so in a snow bank, I suggest you only concentrate it to 3% sugar, then closer to when you boil, take it to 4-4.5%. You need to realize, when you remove water from the sap, you are concentrating the microbes along with the sugar. The microbes feed on the sugar, as they feed you lose some sweet, and get darker syrup. Concentrate at 4% or above should be boiled soon after concentrating.
One alternative is bring the concentrate to a boil for 15-30 minutes, then let it cool and then store it in the evaporator. The boiling will kill off the microbes. If freezing weather expected, drain the pan into a bucket with a good taper to allow for freezing, you could then put it in your snow bank, or bring it into an unheated garage or other minimally heated location, cover it so nothing can get to it.

Ironically, yesterday I picked up more parts for my RO and I was going to start assembling it today, but that now is on hold.

When I decided to build an RO and ordered the parts, I did not have an appreciation for the fact that basically an RO is essentially a direct to evaporator operation. I have read different things about concentrate storage and thought at the time of ordering everything, that keeping the concentrate in below freezing temperatures, in the dark, would be sufficient for a 10 hour period.

If the concentrate basically has to almost immediately go into the evaporator, my two 150 gpd are useless, as they cannot keep up with the boil rate of my evaporator. I bought them over the 400 gpd because of budget reasons, but until I find a way to buy the 400 gpd membrane and housing, the RO project is on hold.

[Swingpure]

I just ordered the 400 gpd membrane and will try and sell the others. I will change my plan on how I will use the RO and will just start ROing an hour or so before I start to boil and I will use smaller barrels, and if the weather is warm enough, set it up beside the evaporator.

[MajorWoodchuck]

Glad you moved up to a 400 GPD filter. I think there is alot of advise coming from collectors on all levels of the spectrum. We made friends wirh some people up the road that have been doing this for years and pride themselves with how sark their syrup looks. Last year I sugared only on weekends and collected sap in 5 gal pails from Mon to Friday. Then would collect sap Fri evening and let it RO overnight recirculating it in a 55 gal barrel. In the morning it would be reduced to 15 gal and I would start boiling it off while my RO worked on the next barrel if I had some.
I ran my RO at about 100 psi with a pretty good flow from the concentrate side compared to the permeate side to keep from clogging membranes. I would rinse my filters between batches wirh permeate and would run soap throuh them at the end of the weekend and start the next weekend with a new 5 micron pre filter. I saved the soap filter in a plastic bag for the next time I needed it.
My goal wasn't to make light or dark syrup but to make something that tasted good and was fun to do. Boiling for 30 hours in a weekend wasn't as much fun so hoping that adding another 400 membrane to my one I had and doubling my boiler will speed things up...or just double my output for the same amount of work.
This year I still plan to Ro overnight but might also try Ro straight into a preheater pan when I'm boiling. I am thinking about using a siphon hose between 2 barrels so I can concentrate 110 gal at a time.
Just remember to have fun in the process. :)

[Swingpure]

I may run the 400 gpd in series with the two 150’s. Depending on the concentrate output, I may RO from 7 am until 10 am to build up a starting supply of concentrate in the garage. By 10 am it should be above freezing and I will move the RO out to the sugar shed and start it up there. I then will start boiling, using the concentrate from earlier, then eventually the concentrate from the RO in the sugar shack. The goal is to go through 120 gals (if available) of sap/60 gallons of concentrate and make 3 gallons of syrup.

As long as there are no ill effects from lifting the steam pans, I will try and make three batches in order to keep the syrup lighter.

[Swingpure]

When I assemble my RO, I have the option of the membranes being vertical or horizontal. Does it matter to the effectiveness of the membranes, which way they are oriented?

Thanks

Gary

[darkmachine]

Might be messy to change membranes or filters if you mount them horizontally if you can't drain your housings before a change or storage. I see big commercial units with horizontal membranes so i don't think it matters functionally unless the housing has some special instructions.

[Swingpure]

Thanks.

I am on the same page as you. I saw the CDL Hobby RO’s and wondered if I should make something more compact, than running the components lengthwise on a board.

https://share.icloud.com/photos/059wMiDw2ddqC5j5UWK8VNHjw

Thanks I will stick with the original plan.

Gary

[darkmachine]

I would look at their operating manual and see what they do for off season storage. It may be that they leave them in unless they are being replaced, the pre-filter which gets changed more often is vertical which makes sense.

I mounted mine vertical just for space, but I have 2 4x40 housings. instead of laying them all out in a line you could put them together like a 6 pack or a 4 pack, just cut some round holes in a square of plywood and fit them through, maybe throw a handle on it, lol.

[Swingpure]

Reading old threads, I came across one where a person was having troubles with flow in their RO. One suggestion was that the feed tank had to be above the feed pump. Someone later on said they had no problem with the feed pump (Aquatec) above the feed tank.

Is there now a consensus on the position of the feed pump in regards to the feed tank?

My needle valve and pressure gauge arrived today, I am now just waiting for the 400 gpd membrane and housing to arrive, then I can assemble it.

Thanks for all of the tips.

Gary

[markgm]

Ideally, the pump is as low as possible.

[fireant911]

Reading old threads, I came across one where a person was having troubles with flow in their RO. One suggestion was that the feed tank had to be above the feed pump...

That is my understanding as well... I sure wish that I could post a picture of my setup in the cart for you. This situation, like so many others, leaves me confused... during research you will see people vehemently stating that you MUST do it in 'this' fashion while others have opposite opinions purportedly with evidence. After much reading, I designed what I think will be a good configuration - I will find out this Spring. If it does not work as intended I can easily reconfigure my machine until good (GREAT) results are achieved!

[Swingpure]

My very first post here so be gentle! Having moved from Alabama to Michigan's Upper Peninsula in Sept 2020, I had my first opportunity of tapping and making syrup last Spring. After three boiling sessions, I quickly came to the conclusion that there has to be a better way! I wanted a mobile unit so I built one on a cart. Also, I included a UV sterilizer that will (hopefully) do two things: sterilize, of course and maybe raise the temperature of the sap just a bit to the minimum temp required. I would love to include a picture of my 'attempt' but apparently I am too new here and cannot get a picture to load nor can I include it as an attachment??? Swingpure, I hope that it is okay that I piggybacked on your thread as I see that your proposed setup is not vastly different than mine and I really, really wanted to include a picture.

Fireant911 shared with me a picture of his RO setup. It is innovative and not something I ever would have thought of. I likely will still go with mounting mine on a flat board, because of space constraints in my sugar shack, but this RO on wheels, might be a good option for some people.

https://share.icloud.com/photos/00efxUTaXPzzswiGHRcYuI_MA

[Swingpure]

Today the last of the components for my RO arrived, the 400 GPD membrane. I think I will build it similar to Dan’s, with a slight modification to hold the membrane housings.

I want it to make it fairly portable, so that I grab it and move it from the garage to the sugar shack each day.

The link is a mashup between Dan’s first RO and one I saw on line.

https://share.icloud.com/photos/060LXEy930-U2mUG-KArZJJVg

[Swingpure]

Now this question will make you laugh. When I stuck the 3/8 tubing into the fitting for the 5 micron fitting to see how it fit, I was surprised that it stuck inside the fitting. But I understood it.

Now for the housings for the membranes they have a different fitting, but it looks like once you stick the tubing in, it does not come out.

The question is, if the tubing gets stuck in the fittings on the housing, how the hec do you ever turn the housings to remove them?

In the attached picture, the arrow shows the fitting on the 5 micron filter housing, imbedded in the picture are the exact quick connect fittings that come with the membranes.

https://share.icloud.com/photos/0a0Fkh0USg94WIje0qr-UWbwg

[wobbletop]

Take off the blue circlip (c clip) if there is one. Push inner sleeve into connector (the part touching the hose) then pull on hose.

https://youtu.be/znp5sh8fPHc?t=111

[Swingpure]

Take off the blue circlip (c clip) if there is one. Push inner sleeve into connector (the part touching the hose) then pull on hose.

https://youtu.be/znp5sh8fPHc?t=111

Thank you very much!

[Swingpure]

I started building my RO today. A good day to do it as 30 cms (12”j of new snow is falling, in addition to the 21 cms (8”) that fell on the weekend. Sap flowing seems so far away, but I digress.

My question is, while assembling the RO, I was surprised to discover that the fitting in the top of the membranes solutions 400 gpd housing, was 3/8 and not a 1/4. The tubing coming out of my pressure gauge is 1/4. Is it best just to buy a 1/4 to 3/8 coupling and keep the 3/8 fitting on top of the housing, or is it better to replace the fitting.

My gut feeling is just to get the coupling.

I was surprised because all of the pictures on line, showed 1/4” tubing going into the membrane housing, but maybe they were smaller membranes.

Thanks

https://share.icloud.com/photos/02b869iDTjMkhx0U5JmEM2Aew

[Swingpure]

I decided to get all new fittings between the 5 micron filter housing and the 400 gpd membrane housing, so that it stays 3/8 tubing between them. I will use a 3/8 to 1/4 reducer coupling between the 3/8 tee and the pressure gauge.

[fireant911]

… Sap flowing seems so far away, but I digress…
Last evening my lovely wife reminded me that the ‘season’ is only about a month away. I initially doubted her BUT, after looking at the dates of pictures of last year’s syruping, I saw that we tapped our trees on Feb 27. Once again, this proves that my wife is always right PLUS tapping is not that far away.


I decided to get all new fittings between the 5 micron filter housing and the 400 gpd membrane housing, so that it stays 3/8 tubing between them. I will use a 3/8 to 1/4 reducer coupling between the 3/8 tee and the pressure gauge.
Regarding the push fittings: I found these to be rather expensive and represent a large portion of the cost of building a RO machine especially for those of us that redesign in the middle of a build;). After looking at local stores, I investigated prices online for the push fittings. Just as an example, the 3/8" X 1/4" reducer mentioned above, the cost at Home Depot was $5.47 while it is available at a cost of just $2.30 from H2O Distributors. With one or two fittings it is not justifiable to purchase online because of the shipping costs will eat up any potential savings but if one is purchasing many of these fittings, you will definitely save much! This may not be applicable to you since you reside in Canada and there are probably additional tariffs for purchases to the states??? If any one else is interested here is a link (https://www.h2odistributors.com/john-guest-fittings-and-accessories) - I have no affiliation other than being a satisfied customer.

Keep those pictures and updates to your build coming!

[BoerBoel]

In Canada, you could try https://www.cwwltd.com/ for fittings. They are located in Newmarket.

[TheNamelessPoet]

Time is your enemy. From the moment that the sap leaves the tree the microbes are at work they want the sugar as much as you do. When you are working a full-time job and dealing with all that life will throw at you during the season time is the enemy. I have had syrup made by people that store the sap they collect all week and boil on the weekends, sounds great doesn't it? It has a 'different' flavor and color. We all do what we can to make this work and I applaud anyone that gets into this hobby or is lucky enough to make a living at this. There is a reason that most sugar makers I know have a glazed look in their eyes from mid Feb to April, they don't sleep, they process as fast as they can and they don't leave R/O ed sap for long.
The best advice I can give you is to do what makes sense for you in year one, you will see the quality of the sap change as it is stored. I bought an r/o that matches the boil rate of my rig. I will r/o for and hour then fire the rig up and boil as I r/o into my head tank my goal is to process the sap as fast as I can. I have the advantage of oil and can process small or large amounts nightly as needed.
You will make some nice stuff I have no doubt. I do agree that your storage times may present a problem particularly toward the end of the season. I learned a lot by going to open houses when we could do that and asking a lot of questions about their operations. We all love to talk sugaring. The best tasting syrup in my opinion always came from the guys that processed fast and did not let their sap sit for long. That being said I have yet to meet a sugarmaker who did not think that his/her stuff was the best stuff in their particular state. You will love the R/O and getting it now was a good idea. I would not stress out about it too much stick with your plan and see how it goes. One thing is for sure you will find many ways to improve for the next season. Write down what worked well and what did not and then improve.

ALL of this is sound advice (I am in NO way an expert as you can see from my signature I am new to it), but the bolded is IMHO probably the most important. It sounds silly but document EVERYTHING you can, temps, runs, boiling temp's, humidity (if you can), EVERYTHING. at worst I find it fun to go back and look at it just in case I forget something that was working, or didn't work. This is a HUGE trial and error.

[TheNamelessPoet]

I just thought of this as well. You could always just concentrate the 1st run, or even just the 1st part of the run by itself, and attempt to boil that by itself. If you can, you can try concentrating it and leaving it as you wanted to, in the snow overnight. You risk making meh syrup or very dark syrup with that batch, but you will have an answer for yourself.

For me, it is part of the reason I got so many more taps this year, I want to test some things out and see what my results are. I am not selling it this year, most likely, so I want to see what happens when I do different things. Like I said before...
DOCUMENT EVERYTHING!

And if yo do go that route, have other people taste it blind (3 samples, 1 with the older concentrate) and see if they can pick out which is which. Word of advice, make sure to tell them you want HONEST opinions, and don't take any of it to heart. EVERYONE loves there own kids... er... syrup, because it's theirs :-)

[Swingpure]

Thanks for the tips on where to get fittings in the future. I did pick up 2 of the 4 today and the other 2 arrive on Thursday, then I am back at the build.

Also thanks for the emphasis on recording everything. I am a big measures guy, so I will have a number of excel sheets going, to capture the data.

I took to heart getting the concentrate into the pan as quickly as possible. As long as my RO produces as much concentrate as hoped, I think I should be good.

The plan is to collect some sap at 6:30 am. Once I have 20 gallons in the sap barrel, I will start the RO up. I will then collect more sap and put a total of 45 gallons of sap in the sap barrel.

Between 7 and 10, will finish collecting the sap, then get the evaporator ready to go. I will then stop the RO, take it from the garage to the sugar shack and start it up again, hopefully concentrating another 55 to 75 gallons of sap. I will then haul over the hopefully 22 gallons of concentrate from the garage, put it into the pans and pots, then start the fire on the evaporator and boil for 6 hours.

That should leave me time afterwards to flush the RO and transfer pumps and to finish the sap into syrup.

The unknowns to the plan is how much the concentrate the RO will produce in an hour and how many gallons per hour my five pan cinderblock evaporator actually boils. Having 9 gallons of sap per hour boiling on my induction ranges should help.

[Swingpure]

Take off the blue circlip (c clip) if there is one. Push inner sleeve into connector (the part touching the hose) then pull on hose.

https://youtu.be/znp5sh8fPHc?t=111

I just wanted to thank you again. It was a simple thing to do, which I did today for the first time, and once you do it once, you become a pro at it, but if you don’t know the trick, it is a puzzler.

[wobbletop]

No Problem. It's not intuitive.

[therealtreehugger]

Just a thought, and I’m sure you have your reasons, but why do you start your RO in the garage, only to move it, and your concentrate, to your sugar shack? Why not just start at the shack, where you can direct the RO concentrate right into your pans? Or at least it’s right there and you don’t have to move it again.

Also - you should have a dedicated container to collect your permeate water (the pure water that is taken out of the sap). You can use it to clean, drink, etc.

[Swingpure]

Just a thought, and I’m sure you have your reasons, but why do you start your RO in the garage, only to move it, and your concentrate, to your sugar shack? Why not just start at the shack, where you can direct the RO concentrate right into your pans? Or at least it’s right there and you don’t have to move it again.

Also - you should have a dedicated container to collect your permeate water (the pure water that is taken out of the sap). You can use it to clean, drink, etc.

Thanks,

The reason why I am starting in the garage is my impression is that the RO should operate in temperatures above freezing. My sugar shack is not heated and I expect that for the temperatures will be below freezing when I first start in the morning. My RO, theoretically, slightly cannot keep up with my evaporator, so I also need to RO for three hours before boiling so I have enough concentrate for the day.

That is based on expected concentrate per hour (7.5 gallons) and sap boiled per hour (8 gph) If my RO underperforms or if my evaporator over performs that will change things.

In the garage, I have a dedicated 55 gallon barrel to collect the permeate, at the sugar shack, it will go I to 5 gallon pails and eventually dumped into the 55 gallon barrel in the garage. I will flush the RO each day in the garage.

If I do build a poor man’s permanent sugar shack this summer, I may add electrical to it and a heater, that will allow me RO in one place.

[Swingpure]

So some other questions:

I have never had a RO before. When I watched a video on it, the guy did not want to touch the membrane and used a pair of pliers to grip the membrane right out of the package and then into the housing. So you should not touch a membrane with your hands?

When I finish building the RO this weekend, can I put the membranes into the housings now, a month before it is used, or should I keep them in their packages until I am ready to flush the RO initially, with water for an hour?

[therealtreehugger]

Thanks,

The reason why I am starting in the garage is my impression is that the RO should operate in temperatures above freezing. My sugar shack is not heated and I expect that for the temperatures will be below freezing when I first start in the morning. My RO, theoretically, slightly cannot keep up with my evaporator, so I also need to RO for three hours before boiling so I have enough concentrate for the day.

That is based on expected concentrate per hour (7.5 gallons) and sap boiled per hour (8 gph) If my RO underperforms or if my evaporator over performs that will change things.

In the garage, I have a dedicated 55 gallon barrel to collect the permeate, at the sugar shack, it will go I to 5 gallon pails and eventually dumped into the 55 gallon barrel in the garage. I will flush the RO each day in the garage.

If I do build a poor man’s permanent sugar shack this summer, I may add electrical to it and a heater, that will allow me RO in one place.

Sounds reasonable. I made my RO10 kit portable, so I keep it inside when not in use, but will bring it out in the morning even if it’s freezing, as long as I plug it in and start it right away. If sap is still liquid, it is not frozen. As long as you have a prefilter and don’t suck up ice, you are fine. Even if it is below freezing out. It is the ice crystals that can damage your membranes.
It seemed like extra work to me, transporting concentrate instead of making it in the same place you are going to boil.

[Swingpure]

Sounds reasonable. I made my RO10 kit portable, so I keep it inside when not in use, but will bring it out in the morning even if it’s freezing, as long as I plug it in and start it right away. If sap is still liquid, it is not frozen. As long as you have a prefilter and don’t suck up ice, you are fine. Even if it is below freezing out. It is the ice crystals that can damage your membranes.
It seemed like extra work to me, transporting concentrate instead of making it in the same place you are going to boil.

My unit is also portable. That is good to know that you can bring it outside when it is below freezing, as long as the sap is not frozen and you get it running in short order.

Once I reassemble my sugar shack in the next couple of weeks, I will see if I have room to bring the big barrels out and set up out of the garage.


I just got all of my fittings, so I will start to build it again this weekend.

[Brien]

Hey Swingpure,
Last year was my first time doing maple syrup, It was a very steep learning curve, but very fun. I'm a weekend warrior and my maple bush is out at my hunt camp 45min from my house. Keeping the sap good at the start of the year was no issues for me. I utilized snow banks and some times the ice itself from the frozen buckets.(counter productive, I know) The challenge was at the end of the season, when the snow was pretty much gone and warm temp were becoming more consistent. The last weekend I went out I was prepared to do my last big boil, but looking at all the sap in the buckets, yellowish and smelled a little funky, I just decided to dump the last collection. I had made good syrup and didn't want my last batch be spoiled or off tasting. But I don't think you will ever be in that situation, sounds like you will be boiling multiple times in the week.

[Swingpure]

Hey Swingpure,
Last year was my first time doing maple syrup, It was a very steep learning curve, but very fun. I'm a weekend warrior and my maple bush is out at my hunt camp 45min from my house. Keeping the sap good at the start of the year was no issues for me. I utilized snow banks and some times the ice itself from the frozen buckets.(counter productive, I know) The challenge was at the end of the season, when the snow was pretty much gone and warm temp were becoming more consistent. The last weekend I went out I was prepared to do my last big boil, but looking at all the sap in the buckets, yellowish and smelled a little funky, I just decided to dump the last collection. I had made good syrup and didn't want my last batch be spoiled or off tasting. But I don't think you will ever be in that situation, sounds like you will be boiling multiple times in the week.

Thanks

I will be gathering my sap each morning, so other than the days that exceed 120 gallons of raw sap, I should be able to boil the sap the day I gather it. If on a day I have a few gallons more, I could also boil longer.

I will not know until I RO how much concentrate I will get an hour and until I boil, how many gallons I boil an hour, but I have based this schedule on expected values. If the actual amounts change, I will adjust the time, I first start the RO.

https://share.icloud.com/photos/080hx85vfmyqkKzOZc7nizbeQ

[fireant911]

Just out of curiosity, since this is a brand new build of your RO Machine, what are your plans for doing an initial flush of the system prior to actually processing any sap? Since I am in the same boat as you, I, too, will be doing something initially before introducing sap into the system but I just do not know what??? We are on well water here with no softener required (which is great as I hate the way that water tastes!). No discoloration of our sinks is present nor is there much, if any, sediment visible (I examined the tank of the toilet for this test). Of course, this water contains no chlorine. Given these conditions, is it safe to use our well water to clear this RO system of any preservatives or contaminates that may be present or should I opt for distilled water or is there another medium that is recommended? Also, how much flushing is recommended for a new system?

Maple season is just around the corner!!!

[Swingpure]

Just out of curiosity, since this is a brand new build of your RO Machine, what are your plans for doing an initial flush of the system prior to actually processing any sap? Since I am in the same boat as you, I, too, will be doing something initially before introducing sap into the system but I just do not know what??? We are on well water here with no softener required (which is great as I hate the way that water tastes!). No discoloration of our sinks is present nor is there much, if any, sediment visible (I examined the tank of the toilet for this test). Of course, this water contains no chlorine. Given these conditions, is it safe to use our well water to clear this RO system of any preservatives or contaminates that may be present or should I opt for distilled water or is there another medium that is recommended? Also, how much flushing is recommended for a new system?

Maple season is just around the corner!!!

This what’s a doing.

I am putting a carbon block filter in my 5 micron filter housing and I will run lake water through the system for a hour. Then I will put a regular filter in and run it for another 10 minutes.

I will only do this about 3 days ahead of using it with sap.

I think your well water will be just fine.

[johnallin]

You may not need the carbon filter unless your lake water has chlorine, which I think would be unlikely.

[Swingpure]

You may not need the carbon filter unless your lake water has chlorine, which I think would be unlikely.

Yes no chlorine in the lake water. It was recommended to me, but perhaps they did not realize I was not on city water. I bought one, does it hurt to use it?

Gary

[johnallin]

I use one - mostly at beginning and end of season for wash and rinses when I don't have permeate.
No harm if it's just water but don't use to process sap.

[Swingpure]

I use one - mostly at beginning and end of season for wash and rinses when I don't have permeate.
No harm if it's just water but don't use to process sap.

Thanks, I have three of the regular filters for the sap, one of which is for the flush.

Gary

[Swingpure]

I worked on finishing building the RO, while watching the shocker in the garage. I have it all basically assembled now. I will be drilling holes in the plywood to hang the RO on lag bolts. The therealtreehugger has me thinking, that if I can start the RO outside with the temperatures below freezing, I might move my entire setup outside, including the large barrels. I will use up all the sap and all of the concentrate each day, the permeate in the barrel might freeze a little overnight. If I do that, and after I assemble my sugar shack, I will figure out where I am going to set it up and decide on where to put the lag bolts.

I guess I have to wait until a few days before using it to test it, so that the membranes do not get stale from not being used for awhile.

I am hoping that I get 7.5 gallons of concentrate an hour.

https://share.icloud.com/photos/0a9Smg-4ABZ3JsS1YcRd_gIpA

https://share.icloud.com/photos/0f8uZPFBl7H1McBKmJQTT3bLA

[Swingpure]

It occurred to me that when I use the RO out at the evaporator, I will have to protect the transformer, for the pump, from precipitation. Once I build the sugar shack or sugar shed as I call it, I will have to design a protective area for it.

The power for it will come from a long extension cord.

Reassembly for the sugar shed will start in a couple of weeks.

[fireant911]

It occurred to me that when I use the RO out at the evaporator, I will have to protect the transformer, for the pump, from precipitation. Once I build the sugar shack or sugar shed as I call it, I will have to design a protective area for it.

The power for it will come from a long extension cord.

Reassembly for the sugar shed will start in a couple of weeks.

I suspect that the closer that we get to tapping season, the more nervous we BOTH are becoming! Just a couple of days ago I saw a reference on another thread here to a video made by the RO Bucket folks in regards to evaluating the condition of the membranes (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7GZLyBHbg4) so I ordered another tool for my RO machine's testing arsenal - a Total Dissolved Solids tester. This will go along well with my PH meter, k-type dual channel temperature temperature digital thermometer, and two refractometers I have readied for my first season of RO production.

[Swingpure]

I suspect that the closer that we get to tapping season, the more nervous we BOTH are becoming! Just a couple of days ago I saw a reference on another thread here to a video made by the RO Bucket folks in regards to evaluating the condition of the membranes (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7GZLyBHbg4) so I ordered another tool for my RO machine's testing arsenal - a Total Dissolved Solids tester. This will go along well with my PH meter, k-type dual channel temperature temperature digital thermometer, and two refractometers I have readied for my first season of RO production.

I have zero RO testers or membrane protectants or cleaners, other than a refractometer to test the sugar content before and after. I am totally ignorant of how to look after the membranes other than flushing them daily. If I go from 2% sugar to 4% sugar and get 7.5 gph of concentrate from it, I will be happy.

As I get closer to the end of the season, I was then going to learn how to maintain them in the off season, but maybe I should start doing that now, in case I have to order something. If I lived in the States, the RO bucket would be the way to go for the hobbyist, not only because they would would work well, but they seem to have all of the “tools” to maintain them. They are not readily available and quite expensive in Canada.

[GWebb]

I have finally bit the bullet and will be building a budget DYI RO.

It has an Aquatec 8800 pump, good for 200 GDP. I also, for the moment have two 150 GPD membranes. I may get a third membrane. This setup is what I could afford, I realize a more powerful pump and higher GPD membranes would be superior.

I will have two 55 gallon barrels one for the raw sap and concentrate and one for the permeate. The plan is to fill the first barrel with fresh sap around 3 pm, run the RO for 8 hours, returning the concentrate to the same barrel. At the end of the 8 hours, I would put the concentrate (25 gallons) into 5 gallon pails and store it in snowbanks near the evaporator. I would then refill the raw sap barrel and run the RO overnight and then take the concentrate (25 gallons) out again in pails to the evaporator. I would then boil the 50 gallons of concentrate.

First question, are there any fatal flaws in the plan.

Can I process 50 gallons of sap in 8 hours through 150 GDP membranes?

Having more membranes just increases the concentration of the sap? (4% concentration with one membrane, 6% with 2, 8% with 3?)

If I had enough sap for a third consecutive run, should I flush (clean) the membranes after the second run, or can I do it after the third?

Thanks

Gary

Gary, I just built this unit at a total cost of about $360 for 3 x 150 GPD membranes. I've ran it twice now and have gotten real close to the 6.25 Gal/Hr (150 GPD) rate. I adjusted the needle valve to get a 2:1 water:concentrate ratio. This knocks out 2/3rd's of the water which will be really nice for cutting the boil time. I think I could have adjusted to get the 8%, but opted for the faster separation rate. One note, I had to re-adjust the needle valve part way through processing 35 gallons of sap. The concentrate output slowed down and was getting about a 3:1 ratio, witch made higher concentrate, but I think the overall throughput was slower. Hope this helps. PS I did do the thorough cleaning process after each of the runs. GWebb

[therealtreehugger]

It occurred to me that when I use the RO out at the evaporator, I will have to protect the transformer, for the pump, from precipitation. Once I build the sugar shack or sugar shed as I call it, I will have to design a protective area for it.

The power for it will come from a long extension cord.

Reassembly for the sugar shed will start in a couple of weeks.

Depending on how big the RO ends up being, you can build a roof of sorts for the parts that need protecting from the elements, or make a small shelter, or just use a pop up tent!

As far as cleaning, I save the permeate and do a really good rinse after every time, but I don't use the RO soap to clean it until the end of the season. I probably only have 500 gal of sap per season that goes through the RO total. Roughly.

[Swingpure]

Gary, I just built this unit at a total cost of about $360 for 3 x 150 GPD membranes. I've ran it twice now and have gotten real close to the 6.25 Gal/Hr (150 GPD) rate. I adjusted the needle valve to get a 2:1 water:concentrate ratio. This knocks out 2/3rd's of the water which will be really nice for cutting the boil time. I think I could have adjusted to get the 8%, but opted for the faster separation rate. One note, I had to re-adjust the needle valve part way through processing 35 gallons of sap. The concentrate output slowed down and was getting about a 3:1 ratio, witch made higher concentrate, but I think the overall throughput was slower. Hope this helps. PS I did do the thorough cleaning process after each of the runs. GWebb

Thank you for your post. It is interesting your permeate and concentrate mixture and that you changed it. I was going to go for a 50/50 permeate, concentrate mixture with the needle valve, based on Dan’s You Tube video. I guess there is no absolute value. I am also encouraged by your 6.25 gph rate.

I guess the needle valve is something to play with to get the results you want. I wonder if using the 50/50 mixture allows you to keep the same needle valve position throughout.

So much to learn.

[eustis22]

Hi...I have a question:

I have no access to well water.

I bought a garden hose water filter so I could use city water for pre season flush/soap wash/flush. It will strain out the chlorine and metals (I hope) until I can generate some permeate.

Can I run the filtered hose water thru my RO to generate some permeate-in-waiting?

[DRoseum]

You need to use an active carbon block filter for this. But do not use that when processing sap.

[eustis22]

Thank you....my filter PDS says this:

Matrikx® CTO®Plus carbon block filters are now powered

So I am assuming this will be fine for filling my flush tank. I would never run sap thru this but do you think I can run filtered water thru the RO to get permeate?

[Swingpure]

We are still maybe three weeks from sap flowing, but I am slowly getting the shelter ready to house the RO unit and associated barrels. Today I made a base next to the shelter to hold the sap, permeate and concentrate barrels. (Not sure if the blue barrel will be my final choice for my concentrate vessel.

I just used pea gravel to level out the blocks that hold the wood frame. As the snow melts I will use more pea gravel to keep the blocks level. I still have to drill holes through the plywood for the tubing from the RO to the barrels. The RO simply hangs on two lag screws drilled into the framing of the shelter.

All of this will be valuable lessons when I make a more permanent small sugar shack in the summer.

(The white on the terra cotta coloured barrels is from the freezing rain yesterday)

https://share.icloud.com/photos/0d4sc3sYJnwv_C2cX9Ev8D5lg

[Swingpure]

Tried to see how the RO would fit in the shelter and drilled holes for the lines. I just have two lag bolts sticking out from the shelter frame and the board holding the RO just hangs on it.

https://share.icloud.com/photos/06ejCT0x8JtImG574wvEyGCyA

[Pdiamond]

Just a suggestion for you Gary, you might want to swap out the lag bolts for a hanger type of bolt. If something happens and it gets bumped it might fall from the lag bolt.

[Swingpure]

Just a suggestion for you Gary, you might want to swap out the lag bolts for a hanger type of bolt. If something happens and it gets bumped it might fall from the lag bolt.

Thanks I will do something different.

[Swingpure]

We are likely three weeks still away from our sap flowing. Not sure if we will have a full season or not, but assuming we do, I could have 1,100 gallons of sap to run through the RO. I plan of flushing the system every day after I run up to 120 gallons of sap through it.

I read posts about RO soap and acid washes, is that something I would need to use mid season with my volumes, or is that an end of season thing?

Thanks

[Swingpure]

If I have more sap on a given day then I plan to boil into syrup, could I still make concentrate from the RO and bring that concentrate to a boil and then keep it overnight to be used the next day?

I guess the simpler way of asking the question is if concentrate is brought to a boil, can it last 24 hours in a cool environment, without significantly spoiling?

Thanks

[ecp]

If I have more sap on a given day then I plan to boil into syrup, could I still make concentrate from the RO and bring that concentrate to a boil and then keep it overnight to be used the next day?

I guess the simpler way of asking the question is if concentrate is brought to a boil, can it last 24 hours in a cool environment, without significantly spoiling?

Thanks Really to many factors to give a yes or a no. In early season you can make concentrate and let it sit for while no worry if its cold. i know plenty of people that do this all the time without boiling it. In the late season that is a different story. generally speaking yes you would be fine but temp, sugar content play big roles in that.

[eustis22]

Grrr...first whack at ROing with new single 400GPD membrane,,,,it brought my just under 2% to....2%...tried running the concentrate thru again...up tp 2.5%. I did a 30 gallon flush beforhand as it was new outta the bag but is this because I just have the single post vs 2 in series?

[Swingpure]

Ahhhhh! I purchased my Aquatec 8800 pump two months ago, but had not tried it because I did not want to get my membranes wet until just before using it.

Today was the test and flush day.

I hooked everything up and turned it on, the motor is making a working noise but is drawing up zero water. When I put my finger at the end of the draw hose, I feel no suction.

I’d there something simple I am doing wrong?

I left a voice mail with Aquatec and sent them an email.

[Swingpure]

The aquatec rep called me back. He said it should be able to draw and prime the pump up from yhe 3 feet height it had to go. I could get it to pump if I held the water above the pump, but it was not coming out fast, I cannot see it gave enough pressure to do the job.

He figured something in the pump may have froze and cracked an inside part during shipment.

Rats! Now to get a pump in two days.

[wilfredjr]

I don't think it's UPS. You and I are in the same boat today: all rigged for flush and no siphon again. Took out the valves and re-rigged it ***-backwards, in case my fading brain misremembered the proper hole position for the pink one, which I take for the check valve, from LAST YEAR, when the same **** thing happened, and I burnt out the transformer running the motor all day waiting for siphon. Either these Aquatec 88's are junk, or there is something we must do in the off-season to preserve the pump, cause I'm getting sick of buying them.

[Swingpure]

I don't think it's UPS. You and I are in the same boat today: all rigged for flush and no siphon again. Took out the valves and re-rigged it ***-backwards, in case my fading brain misremembered the proper hole position for the pink one, which I take for the check valve, from LAST YEAR, when the same **** thing happened, and I burnt out the transformer running the motor all day waiting for siphon. Either these Aquatec 88's are junk, or there is something we must do in the off-season to preserve the pump, cause I'm getting sick of buying them.

I wonder if there is a better more reliable pump. If I can’t get this one replaced by warranty, I rather spend a little more for something better.

[DRoseum]

The aquatec rep called me back. He said it should be able to draw and prime the pump up from yhe 3 feet height it had to go. I could get it to pump if I held the water above the pump, but it was not coming out fast, I cannot see it gave enough pressure to do the job.

He figured something in the pump may have froze and cracked an inside part during shipment.

Rats! Now to get a pump in two days.

Take the pump head off and look at the diaphragm. These easily self prime up to 6 feet but I do recommend having it at or below the level of your sap tank to improve efficiency.

[fireant911]

Swingpure,
I am curious if you have any update to your first RO run (as you and I are 'first-seasoners' with Reverse Osmosis!).

My first run went well - 44 gallons of raw sap in and 17 gallons of concentrated sap out. Incoming sap Brix was 2.6% and concentrate was at 5.6% Brix. Final boiling yielded about 3/4 gallon of syrup that looked and tasted WONDERFUL! There was a tremendous learning curve as not only was this my first usage of the RO, my father-in-law has a new CDL wood-fired evaporator; however, overall, things went nicely albeit slower than expected. I am just waiting for things to warm up so we can tackle our second batch.

[Ms Ellis]

Niter and RO System


Wed 2022-04-13 8:59 Pm

Hello Everyone,

I am posting from PEI, my family and i have only been making syrup for about four years so we are still learning. we tap about 150 trees and this year we added a RO system and an urn with a thermostat for bottling. We have run into a problem with niter that we have not experienced before. We do a lot of filtering and in the past had no issues making a really clear bottle of syrup. Now since we added two new elements we have a niter issue. We strain the sap from the woods, we filter with a pre filter and felt cone filter and two additional layers of felt filters as it comes out of the evaporator, we finish on the stove and then filter again with pre filter, felt cone filter and two extra layers of felt filters and then one last time through a piece of pre filter before it goes into the bottle. This is in addition to the filter and four membranes from the RO system. So i am not sure how the niter can get through all of that. We are new to RO systems and this is our first try so we suspect it maybe connected to the level of sugar and how long its in the evaporator, or we have no real idea. Does anyone have any suggestions on what is happening? and how to fix it?


I thank you in advance for your time and expertise.

[DRoseum]

A few things to remember
(1) niter is formed above 195F. All the prefiltering of sap won't have an effect on final amount of niter.
(2) you probably don't need so many stages of filtering. Just do it after your final finish boil. You are creating more when you finish it anyways and losing product in the intermediate filtering.
(3) some years are worse than others when it comes to niter.
(4) sometimes niter is incredibly fine and gets thru just about every kind of filter. I had this happen a couple years ago. Tons of pre-filters, multiple fine orlon filters and was still getting very fine niter that was settling out of my syrup over time.
(5) filtering with DE (via a press or vacuum filter) should help overall clarity and efficiency.

[Swingpure]

Swingpure,
I am curious if you have any update to your first RO run (as you and I are 'first-seasoners' with Reverse Osmosis!).

My first run went well - 44 gallons of raw sap in and 17 gallons of concentrated sap out. Incoming sap Brix was 2.6% and concentrate was at 5.6% Brix. Final boiling yielded about 3/4 gallon of syrup that looked and tasted WONDERFUL! There was a tremendous learning curve as not only was this my first usage of the RO, my father-in-law has a new CDL wood-fired evaporator; however, overall, things went nicely albeit slower than expected. I am just waiting for things to warm up so we can tackle our second batch.

My Aquatec Pump never worked from day one. After trying to get Amazon to replace it, I am not working with Aquatec to cover it under warranty. I have finished my season, so hopefully will have it for next season. Can you wait a year for my answer?

I could have used it and made the 930 gallons seem like 465 gallons and the five face cords I burnt more like 2.5 face cords.

[DRoseum]

Gary- did you ever take the pump head off and look at the diaphragm?

[Swingpure]

Gary- did you ever take the pump head off and look at the diaphragm?

I didn’t, because I didn’t want to void any warranty and also I was hoping I could return it. If in the end I can’t get any warranty satisfaction, I will check it out and get it repaired.

I suspect it is something very minor.

[Ms Ellis]

Hello D Roseum

Thank you for the tips, do you think extra niter is created in the RO process? I read that somewhere. Do you think even the best of syrup producers end up with niter some times?

Ms Ellis

[DRoseum]

Not sure - will defer to Dr. Tim Perkins and if there has been research conducted on this topic.

[DrTimPerkins]

… do you think extra niter is created in the RO process? I read that somewhere. Do you think even the best of syrup producers end up with niter some times?

RO does not increase niter. It does concentrate minerals as well as sugar, so the RATE of niter formation during boiling will increase proportional to the syrup production rate, but the total amount for a given amount of sap doesn’t change.

[Swingpure]

Two RO questions.

How many gallons of concentrate will two 400 gpd membranes produce per hour?

As long as you flush the membranes after each daily use, is that all you have to do to maintain them during the season?

Thanks

[DrTimPerkins]

How many gallons of concentrate will two 400 gpd membranes produce per hour?

It is highly dependent on the sugar level in your sap, how high you're concentrating to, and the sap temperature.


As long as you flush the membranes after each daily use, is that all you have to do to maintain them during the season?

No...membranes should be periodically "washed" with RO sap (a strong alkaline solution) to reduce/remove microbial buildup and restore high flow rates. Other conditions may dictate an acid wash (much less common).

You'd probably benefit from reading the section on RO concentration in the Third Edition of the North American Maple Syrup Producers Manual. Lots of general info in there on ROs, how they work, how to operate them, and how to clean them.

[DRoseum]

How many gallons of concentrate will two 400 gpd membranes produce per hour?

Another very important factor is your pump performance curve. What is the flow rate at operating pressure of ~100 -120 psi ? The flowrate at pressure significantly impacts the recovery rate which has significant effect on fouling of membranes and overall performance/health of the membranes. Your pump needs to be sized to at least have double the flowrate of what your membranes can reject as permeate so your recovery rate is at least 50%. Higher input flow rate will drive recovery rate even lower which is better for your membranes (shoot for ~20%).

If I remember correctly, the 8852 aquatec pumps get about 1 L/min at 100psi. Those membranes average 25% of their rated performance when processing cold sap. So 400 gpd --> ~1 L/min max. If you run your system to be balanced at 50% output of permeate and concentrate (doubling sugar concentrate) your recovery rates will be .25/1 =25% and .25/.75 = 33% for each membrane (pretty good).

Your output is still going to be about 0.5 L/min of concentrate or 7.8gph. In theory you can get that with a single membrane operating at 50% recovery rate, it will just foul faster and probably not last as long and slow down during use.

So....Your pump is also a limiting factor - as it comes to recovery rate and how much membrane capacity it can really support (which ultimately limits your concentrate output rate)

[Swingpure]

Another very important factor is your pump performance curve. What is the flow rate at operating pressure of ~100 -120 psi ? The flowrate at pressure significantly impacts the recovery rate which has significant effect on fouling of membranes and overall performance/health of the membranes. Your pump needs to be sized to at least have double the flowrate of what your membranes can reject as permeate so your recovery rate is at least 50%. Higher input flow rate will drive recovery rate even lower which is better for your membranes (shoot for ~20%).

If I remember correctly, the 8852 aquatec pumps get about 1 L/min at 100psi. Those membranes average 25% of their rated performance when processing cold sap. So 400 gpd --> ~1 L/min max. If you run your system to be balanced at 50% output of permeate and concentrate (doubling sugar concentrate) your recovery rates will be .25/1 =25% and .25/.75 = 33% for each membrane (pretty good).

Your output is still going to be about 0.5 L/min of concentrate or 7.8gph. In theory you can get that with a single membrane operating at 50% recovery rate, it will just foul faster and probably not last as long and slow down during use.

So....Your pump is also a limiting factor - as it comes to recovery rate and how much membrane capacity it can really support (which ultimately limits your concentrate output rate)

Thank you very much.

So does having two 400 gpd membranes increase the output, or just the sugar content, or both?

Thanks

[eustis22]

A) Is an Aquatec 8852 adequate to supply two 400 GPD Membranes? If not, will that coronwater model suffice? I have 65 taps producing around 500 gals per season and it seems a procon + motor might be overkill?

B) I do not have any permeate to rinse out two new membranes. Can I use distilled water?

C) What is the optimal concentrate:permeate ratio to extend the life of my membranes, given 2/3 washings per season? For some reason I though 25:75 at 100 psi was recommended but now I have learned that it may not be. My sap is only at 1-1.5% so getting it to 2-3% does not seem all that wood-saving to me.

[DrTimPerkins]

A)My sap is only at 1-1.5% so getting it to 2-3% does not seem all that wood-saving to me.

By going from 1.5 to 3 Brix you remove 50% of the water, so you should see a good reduction in wood usage.

[DRoseum]

Go to the coronwater typ-8900. You won't regret it. While the aquatec 8852 can work for 2 of the 400 gpd membranes you are at its limits and running higher recovery rates which isn't great for your membranes.

I use that with 5 of the 400 gpd membranes for 100 taps on vacuum. see video in link below.

[Swingpure]

Go to the coronwater typ-8900. You won't regret it. While the aquatec 8852 can work for 2 of the 400 gpd membranes you are at its limits and running higher recovery rates which isn't great for your membranes.

I use that with 5 of the 400 gpd membranes for 100 taps on vacuum. see video in link below.

I want to buy that pump and have my Aquatec as backup, but it costs more to ship it than the pump costs. Yeesh. The price has dropped since two weeks ago.

[eustis22]

I have a 5 micron pre-filter before my membranes but do I need another between my saptank and the pump to protect the diaphragms from flotsam and/or jetsam?

[DRoseum]

Use an inline strainer like one of these:

https://www.freshwatersystems.com/products/dmfit-filter-strainer-3-8-x-3-8-push-in-200-mesh-60-mic

[eustis22]

Awesome, DR...thanks.

[Swingpure]

I understand once the sap has been run through the RO, the concentrate can “spoil”:fairly quickly.

If temperatures outside were below freezing, if I RO’d something in the evening and stored it outside in freezing temperatures, would it be okay, if I evaporated it in the morning?

[82cabby]

I understand once the sap has been run through the RO, the concentrate can “spoil”:fairly quickly.

If temperatures outside were below freezing, if I RO’d something in the evening and stored it outside in freezing temperatures, would it be okay, if I evaporated it in the morning?

I have to do that quite often and occasionally have a little degradation depending on temperature. But as a one person, small time operation that’s a trade off I have to make sometimes and the end product is still very good.

[fireant911]

I second what 82cabby shared! All of my sap was stored in a snowbank after processing in my RO this year's season. The next day I would load it up and take it to my in-laws because they have the evaporator. I 'think' that a couple of occasions that it remained in the snowbank for two days after going through the RO. This year's syrup was great and I experienced no spoilage.

[eustis22]

I dunno ROs can be run during 32 and below temps.

[Swingpure]

I dunno ROs can be run during 32 and below temps.

My RO will be a heated garage, I would remove the concentrate and store it in a snowbank, on nights that drop well below freezing. If marginally below freezing I likely would not do it.

[Swingpure]

I have to do that quite often and occasionally have a little degradation depending on temperature. But as a one person, small time operation that’s a trade off I have to make sometimes and the end product is still very good.

Thank you fireant911 and 82cabby, that helps.

[fireant911]

My RO will be a heated garage, I would remove the concentrate and store it in a snowbank, on nights that drop well below freezing. If marginally below freezing I likely would not do it.

Swingpure,
I ran my RO machine in our dining room! I brought all the five-gallons buckets with sap to our backdoor and relocated a few of the buckets inside next to the machine so that the sap temp would rise a bit. If my memory serves me, I was shooting for a temperature of right around 40 degrees F to process the sap in the RO. Once I had a five gallons through the machine, I took this bucket back to the snowbank and covered it with snow and continued processing until that run was complete - there is one area in front of our home that does not see much direct sun during the maple season so that snow remains much longer even with above freezing temps. I think that your heated garage will be fine! We never had any spoilage... just some amazing tasting maple syrup!!!