Cleaning sap lines

[Mark]

Anyone know what chemical these guys are using? They claim it is approved.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WKwepPtCmE&t=85sl

[minehart gap]

Call Jesse. He is a really knowledgeable person and friendly. I'm sure that he will give you all of the information that he can.

[GeneralStark]

Maybe this?: https://fivestarchemicals.com/star-san-sanitizer-32-oz

I've seen references to people using this for cleaning tubing but most of what this guy is saying is pretty suspect so hard saying not knowing...

[DrTimPerkins]

Doesn't really matter what they're using to sanitize with -- that approach is not terribly effective. All sanitizers have a minimum required contact time to be effective (read the label). Typically this is around 5-10 minutes. Sucking sanitizer in through the dropline under vacuum results in a second or less of contact time. The better method is to leave the vacuum off, inject (or squirt) some sanitizer into the drop, plug them and let them dangle (to let the sanitizer sit in the end of the drop), let it sit for 5-10 min (minimum), then turn on the pump, walk back up the lines and unplug to suck the lines dry. Depending on the sanitizer you may need to rinse afterward.

The other problem with that approach is it isn't economical due to the amount of time required. If you have 10-500 taps and aren't concerned about making money then no problem. If you have 5,000+ taps and do want to make money, this approach is not economically viable -- it just takes far too much time.

Sanitizers for cleaning maple tubing systems are regulated by the EPA (as pesticides), not FDA. If you look at the label of sanitizers (including Star-San), it will have an EPA registration number, typically not an FDA number. These products are not used in food, they are used to "protect" tubing systems. As far as I know, although some maple producers have mentioned using Star San, it hasn't been researched to any great degree for maple use. I haven't looked into the product enough to advise whether it is allowed for maple (porous and non-porous plastics). I'd advise anyone who does to read the label carefully.

There are alternative approaches to maintaining high sap yields in tubing systems. There's been a tremendous amount of research on this in the past 15 yrs.
https://mapleresearch.org/pub/1019sanitation-2/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z35z6oZDz4A&list=PLZP4fDl-nB9-4aZkQyDR070QpxcAr02q5&index=4&t=8s

Many people don't sanitize tubing lines at all.

[Swingpure]

Doesn't really matter what they're using to sanitize with -- that approach is not terribly effective. All sanitizers have a minimum required contact time to be effective (read the label). Typically this is around 5-10 minutes. Sucking sanitizer in through the dropline under vacuum results in a second or less of contact time. The better method is to leave the vacuum off, inject (or squirt) some sanitizer into the drop, plug them and let them dangle (to let the sanitizer sit in the end of the drop), let it sit for 5-10 min (minimum), then turn on the pump, walk back up the lines and unplug to suck the lines dry. Depending on the sanitizer you may need to rinse afterward.

The other problem with that approach is it isn't economical due to the amount of time required. If you have 10-500 taps and aren't concerned about making money then no problem. If you have 5,000+ taps and do want to make money, this approach is not economically viable -- it just takes far too much time.

Sanitizers for cleaning maple tubing systems are regulated by the EPA (as pesticides), not FDA. If you look at the label of sanitizers (including Star-San), it will have an EPA registration number, typically not an FDA number. These products are not used in food, they are used to "protect" tubing systems. As far as I know, although some maple producers have mentioned using Star San, it hasn't been researched to any great degree for maple use. I haven't looked into the product enough to advise whether it is allowed for maple (porous and non-porous plastics). I'd advise anyone who does to read the label carefully.

There are alternative approaches to maintaining high sap yields in tubing systems. There's been a tremendous amount of research on this in the past 15 yrs.
https://mapleresearch.org/pub/1019sanitation-2/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z35z6oZDz4A&list=PLZP4fDl-nB9-4aZkQyDR070QpxcAr02q5&index=4&t=8s

Many people don't sanitize tubing lines at all.

If a person was to replace the entire drop (spout, drop line and tees) each year, and then on a rotational basis replace the 3/16 lines ( every 3/4 years) would that be sufficient for sanitization purposes?

I plan on changing my drops from 3/16 to 5/16 next year and connecting them to the 3/16 line. If this is fine, am I’m best to do that in the spring after the sap run or wait until the fall?

[DrTimPerkins]

If a person was to replace the entire drop (spout, drop line and tees) each year, and then on a rotational basis replace the 3/16 lines ( every 3/4 years) would that be sufficient for sanitization purposes?

That would most likely produce good yields, but wouldn't be best economically due to the labor and cost of materials. You'd also want to change any inline unions in the 3/16" tubing at the same time.


I plan on changing my drops from 3/16 to 5/16 next year and connecting them to the 3/16 line. If this is fine, am I’m best to do that in the spring after the sap run or wait until the fall?

Won't matter to any substantial degree.

[buckeye gold]

Here's been my approach . I sanitize at the end of season and plug off lines. I inject sanitizer and let set for about 4 hrs and then drain. In tha fall I cut all drops off at the tee and bring in. I cut off spiles and soak them in Hypochloride solution ( this fall I am also trying some in hot water bath of 170 degrees for 30 minutes). I then install new spiles and tees pn these drops. I then go back out to my lines with these reconditioned drops and cut out all old tees and connectors and install the new drops and couplers. If I have any with mold they get tossed, same with chews. I will cut out any bad spots, chews or mold in my laterals and put in new sections. Every 3 to 5 years (depending on lateral condition) I do all new everything. I have my laterals on a rotation where I'm not doing them all one season. Saddly this years scheduled total replacement laterals are only getting repaired, due to the shortage of 3/16th tubing. I feel like this has worked pretty well for me, right or wrong.

[Swingpure]

Won't matter to any substantial degree.

I thought I read in other posts that the ideal setup is 5/16 drops to 3/16 lines. If it does not really matter, than all the better, it saves me buying a 5/16 tool.

[buckeye gold]

I thought I read in other posts that the ideal setup is 5/16 drops to 3/16 lines. If it does not really matter, than all the better, it saves me buying a 5/16 tool.

The 5/16th will help keep sap from being drawn back into the tree, but to me is not a big deal. I use all 3/16th. You can use check valve spiles, would be simpler.

[bill m]

I thought I read in other posts that the ideal setup is 5/16 drops to 3/16 lines. If it does not really matter, than all the better, it saves me buying a 5/16 tool.

I think what DR. Tim meant is about the timing of when you replaced them, no real difference between spring or fall.

[DrTimPerkins]

I think what DR. Tim meant is about the timing of when you replaced them, no real difference between spring or fall.

That was exactly what I meant. Thanks for clearing it up.

[BradWilson]

Hey Doc,

If dosing under vac doesn't allow enough contact time. And the size of the operation doesn't allow trips back and forth from the vacuum to the drops. Is it safe to assume changing spouts (CV) every year and drops/tees every three years, eliminates the need to sanitize every year? Sometimes reading so many threads get my little brain a little jumbled! Thanks in advance.

[DrTimPerkins]

Hey Doc,

If dosing under vac doesn't allow enough contact time.

No "if" about it. Introducing sanitizer under vacuum provides about 1 sec (or less) of contact time. You typically need 5-10 min minimum contact time for best results. 1 sec will help a little, but not much.


Is it safe to assume changing spouts (CV) every year and drops/tees every three years, eliminates the need to sanitize every year? Sometimes reading so many threads get my little brain a little jumbled! Thanks in advance.

We haven't sanitized lines (except for some research trials) since 2004. Our average yield since that time is 0.58 gal/tap syrup (6.4 lbs/tap if you prefer it that way). There is no huge secret here....we use CV spouts in our production bush unless we have some research study in a particular area. We also DO NOT change drops unless they or the fittings start to fail. We have some that are 10+ yrs old in places.

[Swingpure]

We haven't sanitized lines (except for some research trials) since 2004. Our average yield since that time is 0.58 gal/tap syrup (6.4 lbs/tap if you prefer it that way). There is no huge secret here....we use CV spouts in our production bush unless we have some research study in a particular area. We also DO NOT change drops unless they or the fittings start to fail. We have some that are 10+ yrs old in places.

So at the end of the season you do nothing with your lines?

[BradWilson]

Thanks Doc.

[BradWilson]

We haven't sanitized lines (except for some research trials) since 2004. Our average yield since that time is 0.58 gal/tap syrup (6.4 lbs/tap if you prefer it that way). There is no huge secret here....we use CV spouts in our production bush unless we have some research study in a particular area. We also DO NOT change drops unless they or the fittings start to fail. We have some that are 10+ yrs old in places.

One more question. With CVs. Is there an advantage to using stub spouts and CV adapters or CVs and trim the drop each year? We're currently using stub spouts and CV adapters. And we've also had some drops up for 10+ years and are still in good shape. I'm asking all these questions because we're finally adding an RO and keeping things as clean as possible are going to mean even more now. Thanks in advance.

[DrTimPerkins]

So at the end of the season you do nothing with your lines?

Pull spouts, let them dangle. Go back later and cut off spouts and put on plug tees.

[DrTimPerkins]

Is there an advantage to using stub spouts and CV adapters or CVs and trim the drop each year? We're currently using stub spouts and CV adapters.

Stubs are a bit faster, but are one more possible place to leak. There is a very small stubby effect (1-2%) after several years of not cleaning them. We switched to the spout-type when the clear CV came out in polycarbonate (spout adapter was only a available in black nylon at that time). Since they’re both available in poly now the choice would be a flip of the coin.

[BradWilson]

Great, thanks again!

[M&M Maple Grove]

Pull spouts, let them dangle. Go back later and cut off spouts and put on plug tees.
I believe he’s asking if you do anything to treat/rinse out the main lines or laterals. Based on your second answer, I would assume no?

[DrTimPerkins]

I believe he’s asking if you do anything to treat/rinse out the main lines or laterals. Based on your second answer, I would assume no?

Correct...as I already said earlier in this thread. We do not clean lines (lateral, droplines or mainlines) in ANY way. Haven't since 2004.

[M&M Maple Grove]

You can’t be that. I was aware there were no sanitation practices being used but it was unclear about any rinsing/flushing of the lines. Is there a portion of the first run that is used to flush the lines?

3/16 gravity vacuum works fantastic until it doesn’t. It has come to my attention I am putting way too much effort into making this system work. Personally, it is time to upgrade to a traditional mainline with 5/16 laterals starting with my biggest offenders and working towards a complete replacement over time.

[DrTimPerkins]

Is there a portion of the first run that is used to flush the lines?

The last couple of years we let a very small amount run out, but most often not. We don't make any dark syrup (almost all Golden or Amber), so it's actually nice to get a little gunk in there to add some color and flavor.

First estimate is that this year will end up right around 0.565 gpt, which is just a whisker shy of our 0.58 gpt average. We had sap/concentrate going thru two different buildings this year (one production and one research), and some then of the excess sap was returned back to production, so it's taking a bit longer to get a handle on the total...plus we need to finalize the boil-out numbers from the two research evaporators. We got a bit of a late start this year due to equipment arriving late. Set us back on tapping by a few weeks so we missed a small first run of sap.

[Swingpure]

Correct...as I already said earlier in this thread. We do not clean lines (lateral, droplines or mainlines) in ANY way. Haven't since 2004.

I have three long lines that go way up, that I would have trouble cleaning. I understand that you do not clean your lines..

My question is when you pull your taps, do you just let them hang for a while, so that the drops drain any residual sap?

Thanks

Gary

[Pdiamond]

That is what I have seen most producers around here do.

[Adk sugar bush]

So.. Contrary to what I’ve been doing, do I understand the best approach - per Dr Perkins comment- is to not clean lines when done? Just pull taps, leave everything attached. Cut taps off in the fall and replace? That’s what is said, I know, just having trouble wrapping my mind around that.

[littleTapper]

As a small producer, I clean mine. I can see the cost in labor/time being significant if you're a large operation.

My three runs of 3/16" get flushed with permeate water at the end of the season. Use a pump sprayer and go to each drop starting at the top of the hill and working down. Then let hang/dry. Lines are still spotless after 5 seasons of use.

My vac lines at home (5/16") are pretty flat. I flush with water; pulling it to the Shurflo from each tap when the season is over. Then I push Star-san from the pump out to each dropline, cap each one off when full and let sit. I can control the pump with my phone, so my son helps by turning it on/off to fill the lines with sanitizer. That sits for a day or so, then uncap and let them hang/dry. Before the season they get flushed with permeate (on a warm day) made from getting the RO ready. They're also spotless after several years of being used.

Is it worth the effort, maybe not.....but then I don't worry or have to look at crap in the lines.

[DMF]

There are alternative approaches to maintaining high sap yields in tubing systems. There's been a tremendous amount of research on this in the past 15 yrs.
https://mapleresearch.org/pub/1019sanitation-2/


I have a question on this report; Does the annual net profit for the check valve represent one year's net profit?

I'm not even sure if I'm asking the correct question. Here's my thought process, please confirm my thinking or tell me where it's flawed. I currently use Zap-Bac spouts. According to the table, the check valve shows a net profit of $2.10 vs. $1.48 for Zap-Bac. Check valve spouts are listed in Bascom's right now for $0.45/each and the Zap-Bac is $0.60. If those numbers represent "year one" then:

Year----CV cost----ZB cost
1-------$0.45------$0.60
2-------$0.45------$0.00
3-------$0.45------$0.00
TTL:---$1.35------ $0.60

After year 3 drops are replaced for both scenarios but the CV needs labor each year. So on year 3 does the net profit for CV scenario drop to $0.75 (plus the added labor) and Zap-Bac remains at $1.48 or is the cost per spouts and labor built into the calculations?

Thanks!

[Adk sugar bush]

Thanks little tapper, although lots bigger than me.
So, still trying to figure out best cleaning approach. You have a good system, but I have no vacuum or electricity for that matter. I have about 150 taps on 3/16, and generally pull taps and flush (at tap) with a squirt bottle of a chlorine solution. Squirrels like chlorine and chew lines, so was really interested in what Dr Perkins said about not cleaning at all. And.. I don’t understand the idea of using new taps every year. Sure, they get junked up, but I’ve always cleaned - ie boiled. Taps here are about $.50, so that’s about $75/yr. for me.
But back to cleaning. I guess my understanding is the residue sap in lines sours then creates a cleaning bacteria which may be more beneficial and more anti squirrel than chlorine.
If Dr Perkins sees this, I’d be very curious about all of this.

[DrTimPerkins]

If Dr Perkins sees this, I’d be very curious about all of this.

Sorry...in a hurry so this might be short on details.

I think I recall you are using 3/16" tubing, which can have a tendency to plug up after a few years. Because of that, the recommendations are a bit different than for 5/16" tubing. With 3/16" tubing you have two basic options (or a combination of the two).

1. Sanitize your lines and spouts well with something (chlorine) and rinse well each year.
2. Replace all fittings (unions, tees, spouts) at least every three years and (preferably) replace (or thoroughly clean, results not quite as good as replacement though) all spouts each year.

[UB29]

I am a small producer, and have the time to do this. The following works well for me and my tubing stays clean as a whistle year after year:
1. After pulling taps, leave all lines open, including drops, to let entire system drain.
2. I use a 65 gal. leg tank, and fill it up with a solution of water and Calcium Hypochlorite. Smells like a swimming pool.
3. Using one of my 12V shurflo systems strapped to the tractor with the tank, I visit the bottom of each tubing run, connect to the shurflo pump output and pressurize the run.
4. Starting at the bottom of the run, I visit each tap, let a good flow of solution squirt out for a minute or so and plug the tap into the tee to seal it. On to the next uphill tap, and same process. By the time I reach the last tap at the top of that run, I know entire run including drops is now filled with the water/Calcium Hypochlorite solution.
5. That's it for the Spring. I let the solution soak in the lines for the summer. Squirrels don't like the Hypochlorite, so no chews. The Calcium Hypochlorite dissipates as time goes on; and no more smell when I drain the lines down in the fall before winter.
6. First run of the next season, I let run on the ground for a day or so, to give the lines a good flushing.
Hope this helps out. I have had great results with this method. By the way, that little Shurflo pumps all the way to the top of my hills (2-300 ft elevation changes) with no problem.

Thanks, Bill

[SeanD]

There are alternative approaches to maintaining high sap yields in tubing systems. There's been a tremendous amount of research on this in the past 15 yrs.
https://mapleresearch.org/pub/1019sanitation-2/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z35z6oZDz4A&list=PLZP4fDl-nB9-4aZkQyDR070QpxcAr02q5&index=4&t=8s

Many people don't sanitize tubing lines at all.


The conclusion I drew from this research was that a combination of annual replacement with CVs and long contact time with a bleach-family sanitizer provided the highest sap yields over a 10-year period. For my small operation, sanitizing works out to be about < 1 additional day in the woods, so it's not "costly" in the way it might be for bigger operations. That said, I have to take all my tubing down which is additional work that provides zero cost benefit, so it's all relative! :lol: If I were lucky enough to leave all my lines up each year, visiting them with a squirt of sanitizer in the fall would be a no brainer.

[DMF]

I am a small producer, and have the time to do this. The following works well for me and my tubing stays clean as a whistle year after year:
1. After pulling taps, leave all lines open, including drops, to let entire system drain.
2. I use a 65 gal. leg tank, and fill it up with a solution of water and Calcium Hypochlorite. Smells like a swimming pool.
3. Using one of my 12V shurflo systems strapped to the tractor with the tank, I visit the bottom of each tubing run, connect to the shurflo pump output and pressurize the run.
4. Starting at the bottom of the run, I visit each tap, let a good flow of solution squirt out for a minute or so and plug the tap into the tee to seal it. On to the next uphill tap, and same process. By the time I reach the last tap at the top of that run, I know entire run including drops is now filled with the water/Calcium Hypochlorite solution.
5. That's it for the Spring. I let the solution soak in the lines for the summer. Squirrels don't like the Hypochlorite, so no chews. The Calcium Hypochlorite dissipates as time goes on; and no more smell when I drain the lines down in the fall before winter.
6. First run of the next season, I let run on the ground for a day or so, to give the lines a good flushing.
Hope this helps out. I have had great results with this method. By the way, that little Shurflo pumps all the way to the top of my hills (2-300 ft elevation changes) with no problem.

Thanks, Bill

I do the same thing except I use homemade "lunchbox" pumps. I have an 800' elevation change and the last few trees the cleaning solution comes up slowly but it makes it all the way up!

[DMF]

Dr. Tim - Did you get a chance to look at my questions on post #28?

I'm curious to get your input.

Thanks!

[DrTimPerkins]

Year----CV cost----ZB cost
1-------$0.45------$0.60
2-------$0.45------$0.00
3-------$0.45------$0.00
TTL:---$1.35------ $0.60

After year 3 drops are replaced for both scenarios…

No, not correct. First, some versions of the ZB are rated for 2 yrs, some for 3.

Second, there’s no need to replace drops with CV spouts. We’ve gone out to 11 yrs without any loss in yield.

[82cabby]

there’s no need to replace drops with CV spouts. We’ve gone out to 11 yrs without any loss in yield.

Are you replacing the CV spouts yearly in the setup above and just keeping the drop lines? Or keeping the CV spouts in place year to year too? Is it safe to assume the above holds true for 5/16 as well as 3/16? Sorry for the questions but anything I can do to cut down on the maintenance and replacement regiment is tremendously helpful.

[DMF]

No, not correct. First, some versions of the ZB are rated for 2 yrs, some for 3.

Second, there’s no need to replace drops with CV spouts. We’ve gone out to 11 yrs without any loss in yield.

OK, so at two years you are still ay $0.90 with check valves and $0.60 with Zap Bac but you have the added labor of replacing the check vales every year vs. 2-3 with Zap Bac correct?