Tubing install, low slope and no power

[Brien]

Hi Guys/Gals
Last year was my first year making maple syrup and I think I ended up tapping 72 trees with buckets. I thought this year it might be nice to try and run some tubing and am looking for some input. The terrain where I am tapping trees is fairly flat. Over a 100yards I might have a 3 to 4 foot drop in elevation. So my question is could I run some 5/16 tubing to 10?to 20? trees and run them down towards my evaporator into a 45gallon drum.
I've been doing some reading and it seems my searches always end up going to the 3/16" tubing because it can draw a vacuum over enough elevation. Im assuming 3/16" will not be suitable for my application because of the low slope. So I would be relying on gravity mostly to get the sap into the drum.

FYI I do not have electricity..no vacuum pump

And what would the set up look like if it is possible... Say 10 drops to a 5/16 main line that runs to the barrel, or am I way off?

[Openwater]

Hey Brien,
I'm pretty new to this stuff too, but I'm basically trying to do the same thing for the upcoming season: putting 20 trees on 5/16" line on perfectly flat ground. Since I can't generate any natural/gravity vacuum, I decided to put the 5/16 line on a solar powered vacuum pump. Still in the assembly process. The most expensive items were the deep cycle marine battery and (2) 100w solar panels. I used Bob Sookochoff's set-up as a general guide and customized as needed per this "Instructable":
https://www.instructables.com/Off-Grid-Solar-Powered-Maple-Sap-Vacuum-System/

[buckeye gold]

All my experience is with 3/16th on good slope, but I will add my thoughts. Hopefully some experienced tubing guys will add more.

I think the best application for you is to install a mainline through your bush and get it set up with the most slope you can, it doesn't take much. Then run 5/16 laterals to it. This way you can more easily pick up your individual trees and keep some slope on all them. With 72 taps I think you may want 1/2" mainline. Maybe someone with more experience can chime in with advice.

[Brien]

Hey Brien,
I'm pretty new to this stuff too, but I'm basically trying to do the same thing for the upcoming season: putting 20 trees on 5/16" line on perfectly flat ground. Since I can't generate any natural/gravity vacuum, I decided to put the 5/16 line on a solar powered vacuum pump. Still in the assembly process. The most expensive items were the deep cycle marine battery and (2) 100w solar panels. I used Bob Sookochoff's set-up as a general guide and customized as needed per this "Instructable":
https://www.instructables.com/Off-Grid-Solar-Powered-Maple-Sap-Vacuum-System/
I checked out the video seems like a neat setup. I don't think I'm going to go that route yet, trying to keep it pretty simple.

[Brien]

All my experience is with 3/16th on good slope, but I will add my thoughts. Hopefully some experienced tubing guys will add more.

I think the best application for you is to install a mainline through your bush and get it set up with the most slope you can, it doesn't take much. Then run 5/16 laterals to it. This way you can more easily pick up your individual trees and keep some slope on all them. With 72 taps I think you may want 1/2" mainline. Maybe someone with more experience can chime in with advice.

I guess I should start researching a main line,I see in my CDL catalogue the smallest mainline is 3/4". Whats the easiest way to connect a lateral line to a mainline.?? In the catalogue it looks like the only option is some SpinSeal tool, sounds pricy?

[MISugarDaddy]

Go with 3/4" mainline with as much fall as you can achieve, as Buckeye Gold suggested. I highly recommend using DSD Star saddles (dsdstars.com) to connect your laterals to your mainline. Then, if in the future you want to add vacuum using a 12 volt RV pump you are all set up for it. We have no power in our woods and we use 12 volt RV pumps for vacuum and generally get 20 to 25 inches of vacuum. Installing an RV pump is also nice because it can allow you to have the outlet of your mainline lower than the barrel or tank that you collect sap in because not only is the pump creating vacuum, but it can then pump the sap up into your collection tank.
Gary

[buckeye gold]

There are a bunch of tutorials on youtube and other sites. Here is just one simple one

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5m1FW76Cs1k

Here is a link to SugarBush Supplies catalog that shows the fittings you need

https://www.sugarbushsupplies.com/catalog/2021%20Catalog%20Web.pdf

[DrTimPerkins]

Given your low amount of slope, get a decent hand level and learn how to use it. Focus on getting the mainline wire tight and just slightly downhill from the top to the bottom of the run. A slope of 1% will be OK, 1/2% is OK if you're EXTREMELY careful. Then wire-tie the mainline to the wire very well to avoid any sags. There are several types of saddles you can use from different manufacturers. SpinSeal (CDL) is great, but not for you. Go with 5/16" laterals and droplines (not 3/16", due to your lack of slope).

[Openwater]

Then wire-tie the mainline to the wire very well to avoid any sags. .

In my flat woods with just (2) 5/16 laterals going into a 4008 vacuum pump, how essential is it to not have any sags in the 5/16? What's the worst that could happen if there's a slight sag in one of lengths between trees?
I'll start the run as high as I can on the first tree, but it still needs to finish high enough at the pump for the outlet to drop into my collection tank.

[DrTimPerkins]

In my flat woods with just (2) 5/16 laterals going into a 4008 vacuum pump, how essential is it to not have any sags in the 5/16?

Sags in lateral lines are far less detrimental, but still should be avoided to the extent possible.

[Brien]

Go with 3/4" mainline with as much fall as you can achieve, as Buckeye Gold suggested. I highly recommend using DSD Star saddles (dsdstars.com) to connect your laterals to your mainline. Then, if in the future you want to add vacuum using a 12 volt RV pump you are all set up for it. We have no power in our woods and we use 12 volt RV pumps for vacuum and generally get 20 to 25 inches of vacuum. Installing an RV pump is also nice because it can allow you to have the outlet of your mainline lower than the barrel or tank that you collect sap in because not only is the pump creating vacuum, but it can then pump the sap up into your collection tank.
Gary
I'll check out those dsd star saddles, but I will most likely just buy everything from my local distributor, That is if its in the fun budget for this season. I have no idea how much a roll of 3/4" mainline will cost, I'll have to call for pricing this week.

[Brien]

There are a bunch of tutorials on youtube and other sites. Here is just one simple one

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5m1FW76Cs1k

Here is a link to SugarBush Supplies catalog that shows the fittings you need

https://www.sugarbushsupplies.com/catalog/2021%20Catalog%20Web.pdf
Thanks for the links, I'll check them out.

[Brien]

Given your low amount of slope, get a decent hand level and learn how to use it. Focus on getting the mainline wire tight and just slightly downhill from the top to the bottom of the run. A slope of 1% will be OK, 1/2% is OK if you're EXTREMELY careful. Then wire-tie the mainline to the wire very well to avoid any sags. There are several types of saddles you can use from different manufacturers. SpinSeal (CDL) is great, but not for you. Go with 5/16" laterals and droplines (not 3/16", due to your lack of slope).
I just mentioned in a previous reply, I guess I'm going to have to price all this stuff out, might not be in my fun budget this year. I hope it is because walking to my property takes a good 20min, then walking in the bush collecting the 72 pails would take me at least 1/2hr, pretty tiring walking around in the muck.
I think I could get that slope for sure with my mainline. I walked it out and its only about 100yards from my sugar shack to the farthest tree I had tapped.
If the money doesn't pan out, could I just have a smaller set up with 5/16" mainline? Or its a no go with my lowest slope?

[Biz]

FYI I just set up a 300' mainline with 3/4" tubing and it ran about $1USD per foot, not including the wire jenny or mainline drill tool. This included mainline, wire, anchors, ratchet, tubing ties, 14 gauge wire for ties, and 20 saddles. I used Leader mainline which is a little more costly than the black piping but better quality. I think 5/16 tubing could be used for the mainline to reduce cost, but probably with reduced sap flow. Keep it tight and without any sags or flat spots.

Dave

[bmead]

the mainline mentioned will work well as long as you can keep it tight and on grade. less investment would be several smaller systems of 5/16 to barrels. I would not run the 100 yard stretch to one location. 5/16 lines that long are going to be over loaded and and miserable to keep up and tight. Few smaller systems to individual barrels will work just as good as a mainline, disadvantage being the multiple collection points to get a transfer tank to.

[DrTimPerkins]

...could I just have a smaller set up with 5/16" mainline? Or its a no go with my lowest slope?

That would work, but as previously noted, break it up into several individual runs.

[Brien]

That would work, but as previously noted, break it up into several individual runs.
So I have decided to just try some 5/16 tubing this year and do some short runs. I figure this will get my feet wet in the tubing game. I am in the process of welding up some tubing tools.
Last weekend I ran some string to the bush, and it was about 80 yards with 15 trees. Would it be better if I shortened this to 50 yards with 9 or 10 taps?

[NhShaun]

I think breaking it up into a few runs or collection points would be best. It will allow you to make changes easier and monitor how the tubing performs since you are new to it. I enjoyed seeing which lines produced more sap during my first few seasons using tubing. Shorter runs will make it easier to keep your lines from having sags in the flat area you are tapping.

[DrTimPerkins]

So I have decided to just try some 5/16 tubing this year and do some short runs. I figure this will get my feet wet in the tubing game. I am in the process of welding up some tubing tools.
Last weekend I ran some string to the bush, and it was about 80 yards with 15 trees. Would it be better if I shortened this to 50 yards with 9 or 10 taps?

That should work. Good luck this spring. And one more thing...DON'T VENT THE LINES.

[BoerBoel]

That should work. Good luck this spring. And one more thing...DON'T VENT THE LINES.
Why not vent the lines?
Last year was the first year for me with 5/16" lines. I noticed a few times (short season for me) that the sap seemed to just sit in the lines and not flow down the lateral to the mainline. I think I have enough slope...about 1-2' drop over 20-25'. I noticed that when I vented the lines the sap would flow right away.
Am I doing something wrong with my lines? Does venting introduce more bacteria and cause the tap hole to start healing over earlier?

[Super Sapper]

Venting introduces bacteria into the line and thus spouts. Venting does not help as all it is doing is allowing the sap in the line to run out and then the line will sit empty. It is sitting there because the tree is not giving sap at that time.

[BoerBoel]

I guess the only time it makes sense to vent is on your last collection day to get the last bit of sap out of the lines.

[DrTimPerkins]

I guess the only time it makes sense to vent is on your last collection day to get the last bit of sap out of the lines.

That is correct. Many will pull spouts at the end of the season and let them dangle to drain and dry.

[DrTimPerkins]

Why not vent the lines?
Last year was the first year for me with 5/16" lines. I noticed a few times (short season for me) that the sap seemed to just sit in the lines and not flow down the lateral to the mainline. I think I have enough slope...about 1-2' drop over 20-25'. I noticed that when I vented the lines the sap would flow right away.
Am I doing something wrong with my lines? Does venting introduce more bacteria and cause the tap hole to start healing over earlier?

It is a false impression. When you pull the spout to vent, all the sap will run out of line quickly, but for a short time only. After that you'll basically have one drop in, one drop out. However you also introduce microbes into the line (with the air that is pulled in), which will cause taphole drying (not really a drying process, but rather a microbial plugging process). End result is less sap over the course of the season if you vent. So if your goal is less sap, by all means vent. Most choose not to.

[tonka]

I to deal with little slope in my woods. Currently running 800 taps on almost 3,000 ft of mainline. Prior to this year I ripped a bunch of 2x4s and used them for post to support my mainline but after having to adjust the mains every year to compensate for post settling in dirt/mud and post starting to rot I ended up buying a bunch of treated 4 1/2 " x 7' fencing post with the point on one end and pounded the post in the ground 10 to 15 ft apart while the ground was soaked after syrup season to support my mainline. Once post are in the ground run out your wire get it good and tight and then fasten the wire to the post. I used the metal strapping for plumbing, cut them into little pieces and fold in half so you can run a screw through the holes and your wire is nicely cradled in your clip. Cdl sells hooks you can fasten to a 4ft level, I made something similar to get the right slope on the wire. Once the wires all connected then install mainline. It will cost you a bit more in the beginning buying the post but in the long run it will be well worth it getting the right slope to it to function properly.

[TapTapTap]

I to deal with little slope in my woods. Currently running 800 taps on almost 3,000 ft of mainline. Prior to this year I ripped a bunch of 2x4s and used them for post to support my mainline but after having to adjust the mains every year to compensate for post settling in dirt/mud and post starting to rot I ended up buying a bunch of treated 4 1/2 " x 7' fencing post with the point on one end and pounded the post in the ground 10 to 15 ft apart while the ground was soaked after syrup season to support my mainline. Once post are in the ground run out your wire get it good and tight and then fasten the wire to the post. I used the metal strapping for plumbing, cut them into little pieces and fold in half so you can run a screw through the holes and your wire is nicely cradled in your clip. Cdl sells hooks you can fasten to a 4ft level, I made something similar to get the right slope on the wire. Once the wires all connected then install mainline. It will cost you a bit more in the beginning buying the post but in the long run it will be well worth it getting the right slope to it to function properly.

I have tried something similar but I found it impossible to drive a straight line of posts, particularly in my boney soil. The result is a zigzag alignment which is not helpful with minimal slope. I find it's better to set the wire to the anchor trees and install "floating" posts to the wire. I say floating since they're not embedded but you'll still want to clear the woods duff first. You should visually check for sags before every season but adjustments should be minimal and relatively easy. I have noticed that the zigzag alignment makes it challenging to visually check for sags but nice straight alignments are easy.

Ken

[tonka]

Taptaptap, I can understand what you're talking about being difficult driving post in rocky soil and in that case pounding post obviously won't work, luckily we don't have rock that bad. Ran into a few post that hit rock a foot down but most post went down smoothly. Fortunately for me I was able to get my post in a fairly straight row just like a fence. I took a couple pictures yesterday while working in the woods I was planning on posting on this thread but for some reason it fails each time I try to upload.

[DrTimPerkins]

Like Ken, our soils are pretty boney, so placing posts in the ground is rather difficult (not impossible). Our newest tubing installation (Green Mountain Mainlines) uses wood posts set on the ground. We'll see how it fares in the long-run.

[TapTapTap]

Taptaptap, I can understand what you're talking about being difficult driving post in rocky soil and in that case pounding post obviously won't work, luckily we don't have rock that bad. Ran into a few post that hit rock a foot down but most post went down smoothly. Fortunately for me I was able to get my post in a fairly straight row just like a fence. I took a couple pictures yesterday while working in the woods I was planning on posting on this thread but for some reason it fails each time I try to upload.

Tonka -
An even better procedure for driven posts is to pull your wire first and then use the wire to guide your post locations and to select the right height. I'd bet a surveyor couldn't drive a straighter line. In fact, most construction layout guys I know would pull a string to drive a straight line (just like a wire).
Ken