Getting power to sugarhouse with ext. cords

[syrupman]

Hi

My sugarhouse is 600 feet from the house. Is it possible to use extension cords from the house to the sugarhouse. Has anyone used extensions for long distances and what would be the maximum distance??

Thanks

[Jim Brown]

syrupman; Before I would run extension cord I would buy a 500 foot roll of 10-2 and lay it out. How much equipment do you intend to run just some lights or a bunch of stuff?
Just my two cents!

Jim

[syrupman]

Jim Brown
I just wanted to use the power for lights. It's not easy to make syrup without lights. When I had a sugar house in NY state I had two 100 foot extensions and it worked fine but I wasn't too sure about 600 feet. Thanks for the info.
Sugarman

[325abn]

If you are going to just run a few light bulbs you should be able to do it with light duty cords. Anything more you will have some issues with the distance.

What about using some DC lights?

[firetech]

I would not try to run any motors but lights will come on but may not burn as bright as they normally would. Voltage drop will kill'ya on motors. try getting perment wiring installed if you wish to run motors

[Fred Henderson]

Use nothing but 10/2 and fuse / breaker it for 30 amps max/ unless you want to start a fire to burn your house or your sugarhouse down. I am a vol fireman and I have seen too many ext cords.

[syrupman]

Fred Henderson
If I use the 10/2 wire and give it it's own 30 amp circuit breaker, would it then be safe and also do the job?

syrupman

[tappin&sappin]

Been a while since I sat down and did some nodal analysis... but what the heck, I'll give it a try.

How many lights are you using? What wattage rating are they?

If you use 4 (60W) bulbs, your total current draw will be around 2 amps.

12AWG has a ohms/K feet resistance of approx 1.92. 60% of that is 1.15 ohms.

Your voltage drop will be ~2.3V over the 600ft of wire which is negligible.

12AWG used in a bundle is good for ~35amps. A 30 amp CB would be PLENTY.

[syrupman]

tappin&sappen

[syrupman]

Tappin&Sappen

It sounds as if you have some experience in the electrical field. Thanks for the info. I think I might give it a try after the snow melts a little.

Syrupman

[firetech]

Tappin & Sappin has the voltage drop correct but the NEC 70 (electric code) will only allow 12 gauge wire on a 20 amp breaker for gernal branch circuits. You can use a higher rated cb for dedicated motor loads only. And you can only use the 70 degree table in the code book as the terminals on standard cb are rated for 70dg. I agree though that extention cords are bad news. Been called in on too many fire call for bad connections. I'm a master electrician and nicet ll cretified fire alarm technician

[Breezy Lane Sugarworks]

Cost might be a factor, but that is your decision, not mine. I would use nothing less than 10/2 UV protected wire with ground. And because your only going to run lights there is no need for 220V power. But the reason I would use the 10AWG is because if your like the rest of us, if there's power there, you'll try to run something else too. And if you have the larger cable, it'll be more apt to handle it safer. Maybe more lights, a saw, a blower on the arch, etc... Just my thought as I'm always trying to think of what I'm going to expand to, not just think for today.

[Fred Henderson]

Fred Henderson
If I use the 10/2 wire and give it it's own 30 amp circuit breaker, would it then be safe and also do the job?

syrupman

To answer your ? yes. It will be safe but you may get a voltage drop which will not have much effect on just lights.

600 ft of 10/2w ground in copper is going to cost some serious bucks. You could buy 1800 ft of #8 Alu, the direct burial stuff and cut it into 3 lenghts 600ft each. Mark each wire one red,one white at each end and leave one black. #8 is rated at 40 amps. The breaker only protects the wire. Never fuse/breaker a wire for more that its rated for. I have 400 feet of #8 in pvc condiut going to my sugarerhouse.

[sweetwoodmaple]

I have #10 running to my sugarhouse. If you have any reason at all to use any sort of power equipment, run 220 volts and split it to 110 volts using the breaker box at the sugar house.

The reason is that the actual voltage drop is the same whether 110 volt or 220 volt.

For example, say your voltage drop is 5.5 volts over 600 ft. That is 5% of a 110 volt circuit (which is significant). But, if it is 220 volt, that only 2.5% of the total voltage.

Another two cents. Pretty soon you can buy a soda.

[MR Electrician]

Been a while since I sat down and did some nodal analysis... but what the heck, I'll give it a try.

How many lights are you using? What wattage rating are they?

If you use 4 (60W) bulbs, your total current draw will be around 2 amps.

12AWG has a ohms/K feet resistance of approx 1.92. 60% of that is 1.15 ohms.

Your voltage drop will be ~2.3V over the 600ft of wire which is negligible.

12AWG used in a bundle is good for ~35amps. A 30 amp CB would be PLENTY.
wow hold it buddy

as per the american electrical code a #12 wire can only be fused to a maximun 20 amp
a # 10 guage wire can handle 30 amps.


my 2 cents run a 10/3 nmw 10 cable and burry it 18' deep
or if you want to go overhead run #8/3 triplex wire on poles 20 feet in the air. and get a permit and get it inspected if you burn the shack down due to yr ****ty wiring theres no insurance to cover yr losses.

so do it right or get a generator.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

18' deep, are you trying to dig to Iraq?? I have never heard of anything like that before.

If you are going to run lights off of the extension cords which is not a good idea but would work, use the new energy efficient bulbs. A 100 watt bulb only uses 25 watts and puts off more light than a stanard 100 watt incadenscent bulb.

[MR Electrician]

18' deep, are you trying to dig to Iraq?? I have never heard of anything like that before.

If you are going to run lights off of the extension cords which is not a good idea but would work, use the new energy efficient bulbs. A 100 watt bulb only uses 25 watts and puts off more light than a stanard 100 watt incadenscent bulb.

18" deep is the minimal burying distance for wire in a residential area as per hydro code
in a farm area its deeper
i recomend laying the wire in a 6" sand bed then covering the sand with a cedar 2x6 or presure treated wood just dont use creosote treated wood it eats up the wire
if you have a lot of burrowing animals run the wire through pipe and encase in concrete this will save it from an expensive chew through.


ok so how do i know all this crap
i hold 3 licences in ontario canada

industrial electrician
construction and maintenance electrician
master electrician
im applying formy alberta electricians equivalency licence
and i have a few more .
i know my ****

[PATheron]

Syrupman- 600' is a long way to run your electricity as far as cost. If you are going to be serious about making a lot of syrup in your shed which invoves motors, etc, have an electrician come and look at what you want to do. It will be pretty expensive. You can look in the Maple syrup producers handbook and it spells out how large a service you need per so many taps. That would give you an idea what you need. If you are just hobbying in the shed try to find a deal on a generator. If you run extension cords youll probly burn up anything like power tools if you try to run them. Voltage will be low current will be high and end of tool. To do it right is probly going to cost a lot of money but is pretty necessary if you are going to try to make a lot of syrup. Hobby- generator, ideas of serious procuction- get a real electrician to look at it and do it right the first time. Have a happy Theron

[Fred Henderson]

If you just want a few lights the is alos solar panels and a DC battery. We have a member in here that has solar panels.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

If you decide to bury it permantently, I would run the wire underground inside a plastic conduit designed for wire. It is gray and heavy walled and you shouldn't have too much of a problem and I would run at least 100 amp service.

[325abn]

If I am just going to run a bulb or three 600ft away I am going to spend the $50 - $70 on extension cords not the hundreds to run a real permanate circuit.

4 years ago I ran 300ft of 10/2 outdoor wire down to a pond pump, just laid the wire on the ground along a fence line and it has been working fine and safely ever since.

[ibby458]

You've gotten some good advice, and you won't go wrong following it. For what it's worth, here's my experience.

I have 120' of 10/3 w/g UF running to my sugarhouse. (Buried). It's wired to a 220V circuit breaker (30 amps), and goes to a load center in the sugarhouse. From there it's split into several 110V circuits. I have 3 -150 watt output Hi efficiency lights (Actual draw about 30 watts each, I think). I also have 3-200 watt halogens that shine directly on the evaporator. (One into each door of the steam hood and one on the syrup pan) 2 of these run all the time I'm boiling. I also have a coffee pot that's always on, a dorm fridge for the Diet Pepsi and a small radio. (All unknown wattages)

This load should be well within the capacity of the wire, but -

- When I plug in the small submersible transfer pump, the lights dim all the time it's on.

- If I plug in a Skil saw, it takes a few seconds to get up to speed.


This tells me the load is maxed out for the distance. The breakers have never tripped, and none of the wires get even slightlly warm. This might be a case of it's safe, but not optimal.

I'd follow Fred's Advice. Run some #8 AL in conduit. Any of these options will cost you some bucks, but his will give you the best bang for your buck.

On the other hand - If you are SURE it's just gonna be a few lights, go ahead and run some HEAVY extension cords. 14ga at least - 12 would be better. Tape all the plugs to keep out moisture. Keep the cords out of the mud. Incandescent bulbs will run a bit dimmer on low voltage, but that makes them last longer. I don't know about the other types. Likely won't be good for them.

Be double sure it's unplugged at the house when you quit for the night. A lot of fires do indeed start from extension cords!

[syrupman]

Fred Henderson

I want to thank you all for the info on electricity to the sugarhouse. It seems like I have a lot of options so I'll have to give it a lot of thought.

Fred...Do you know the name of the member that has the solar panels??

[super sappy]

I run my lights on 12 volt deep cycle batteries. I run 3 - 60 watt bulbs and although it is not as bright as Id like it works. I bought solar battery maintainers 16" x16" they will not keep up with the demand when you boil for a couple of days straight.I will bring the batteries home and charge with the charger every couple of days. Ialso run a blower that came out of a dodge van off this system. It is not as good as electric but it was cheap to install and now I am pretty well usto it. -SS

[cncaboose]

Hi, Syrupman, I'm the guy Fred knows with the solar panels. My set up has two 15 watt panels, a voltage controller, two 6V golf car batteries, and a 1500 watt inverter. I use it to power a shop light with 2 40 Watt bulbs and my submersible pump to fill the feed tank. I ran the batteries out last spring from running the pump and had to put the inverter on my tractor for the last couple of boils. If all you are going to run is lights this setup would be great and should not run out. Use fluorescent bulbs or skip the inverter and use 12 V bulbs. The inverter is really nice since it lets you do other things that use house current, like taking the Shopvac out there after the season to really clean things up. I got the panels and controller from Northern Tool on one of their free shipping sales and the inverter on eBay. Inverters seem to run 30-50% cheaper on eBay than even thru discount places but the panels aren't worth chasing after on eBAy unless you get lucky. The golf car batteries came from an area golf car dealer. You really don't want to pay to have them shipped from anywhere because of the weight. Whole setup cost me less than $400 and prices on panels and inverters haven't changed much, though batteries may have. Ian

[syrupman]

Ian

Thanks for all that information. Sounds like a good solution. If I get started after the snow melts I'll probably have lots of questions.

[peacemaker]

its 18 in and should be laid in sand and covered with sand then yellow marker tape on top before soil

[Brent]

If you are going to go the solar route, visit a marine supplier for larger boats, like West Marine. They have 12 volt florescent lights. Every device you put in the line has inefficiency. If you can run direct off 12V ... do it. Where you really must have an AC device us the inverter.

[Fred Henderson]

While an inverter is not energy efficent it is much easier to transport AC power as opposed to DC even a very short distance. Florscent lights do not work well in cold weather unless it has the cold weather ballast and thet may break the bank.

[Mike]

Theres always the 2500 watt Honda generator......runs 8-10 hrs on a couple of gals of gas.......

[Fred Henderson]

And that Honda gen set can be used many other places also.

[RileySugarbush]

Yeah, and if you don't like the noise, move it 600' away and run extension cords. Oh, wait a minute.....

[Revi]

If you finish on propane, you can easily get by with a solar setup. We have LED lights that hardly draw anything in our house. It's a fun thing to do. The batteries should be stored in an insulated box. It won't cost too much if you only have a few lights and a radio or cd player. You won't be able to run vacuum with solar, unless you have a lot of panels. The great thing is that you will have no power bill.

http://www.msad54.org/sahs/appliedarts/artlofving/Energysav/pages/ipvpanel_jpg.htm

[Fred Henderson]

If you are now using propane I would put in gas lights. I had them in my hunting camp and they show a lot of light.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

The 4' lights with cold weather ballast are around $ 50 @ Lowes or were a couple of years ago.

[Breezy Lane Sugarworks]

propane......sounds $$$$$$$$$.

[cncaboose]

I just use a cheap regular 4 foot shop light. When you are boiling it is warm enough in the sugar house that it seems to work fine. Maybe a little dim at first but it warms right up.

[Father & Son]

We have a Valu Home Center that when they put them on sale the 4' cold start shop lights are around $20

Jim

[325abn]

The regular cheapo shop lights work just fine all winter in my barn, granted on -20 nights they do tend to be a tad bit dim.

[thenewguy]

how about getting ordinary 12v LED light (like a round back-up light). LEDs draw hardly any power and show tons of light. You would propably get 5 times the light out of a 12v car battery if you went to LEDS and they are getting pretty cheap now. just get some automotive leds, wire them up power and ground with a switch and you will be set!!

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

That's a good idea on the LED lights. My flourescent lights are 8' long with 2 bulbs and a cold start ballast and they were around $ 46 at Lowes the best I can remember.

[markcasper]

I run one of my vacuum pumps with 650 ft. of #10 heavy weather resisitent wire. I was unsure when I put it in 3 years ago whether it would work or not due to voltage drop. I switched the wires on the 1 horsepower motor to 220. I have never had a problem yet and last spring it ran one time for 12 days and nights straight.
I plug it in to my neighbors barn and the wire just lays on the ground through the field to the pump, as the wire needs to be rolled up every year. I pay him $60 a season and figure last year it ran for 610-620 hours total. At .0850 kwh/ does anyone think this is too much too pay?

[syrupman]

Does the line have to be 220 volts or could it be 110 volts?? All I want to do is run lights.

Syrupman

[tapper]

110 is all you need for lights

[MR Electrician]

Does the line have to be 220 volts or could it be 110 volts?? All I want to do is run lights.

Syrupman

ok so take it from an electrician
no mater what you do install a minimum of #10 wire #8 would be better
your lights will be brighter and anything you plug into it will work properly.
if you use a #14 or #12 wire your power will be around 90 volts and it will get worse when you load it up with more load as the wire will become warm from the voltage drop .end result is the wire will burn up in the ground.

i suggest you go to your local second hand building supply store and buy the biggest wire you can the bigger the better.
pm me if you need some profesional advice or help.

[Breezy Lane Sugarworks]

Just like Mr. Electritian said. When ever there is a shortage of voltage, the motor, lights, or what ever it may be, will not last and will burn up. So put in either 8AWG or 10AWG so there is adequate voltage. And 110 volts is fine for lights. 220 volts would just be nice so if there was a motor that was being run there and it could be switched to 220, it would run on much less amps.

[markcasper]

Mr electrician, In my former post, I told about running a 1 horse motor via 650 ft/ 10 gauge wire @220. What I'm asking is this; how much juice is this thing drawing per hour.

An electrician where I work suggested that it is using 746 watts per hour, or 3/4 kilowatt hour per hour of run time. Is this close to accurate? My neighbor had mentioned something in the past of installing a meter, but the cost of one of them would probably be very expensive.

[MR Electrician]

Mr electrician, In my former post, I told about running a 1 horse motor via 650 ft/ 10 gauge wire @220. What I'm asking is this; how much juice is this thing drawing per hour.

An electrician where I work suggested that it is using 746 watts per hour, or 3/4 kilowatt hour per hour of run time. Is this close to accurate? My neighbor had mentioned something in the past of installing a meter, but the cost of one of them would probably be very expensive.

ok im sitting here in the lobby of the work camp where i work so i dont have access to any code books . so im winging it
1 hp is 746 watts
runing for an hr it consumes .746 kwh of electricity
the voltage has no effect on the watts consumed
i hope this helps.

[Fred Henderson]

ok so take it from an electrician
no mater what you do install a minimum of #10 wire #8 would be better
your lights will be brighter and anything you plug into it will work properly.
if you use a #14 or #12 wire your power will be around 90 volts and it will get worse when you load it up with more load as the wire will become warm from the voltage drop .end result is the wire will burn up in the ground.

i suggest you go to your local second hand building supply store and buy the biggest wire you can the bigger the better.
pm me if you need some profesional advice or help.

Porfessional help!!!!!!!!!!!! who are you chidding? Using second had wire in my book is not a good thing. We have been telling Syrupman how to do it right and not start a fire and you suggest second hand wire. In the interest of keeping the cost down I would use # 8 Alu.

[Breezy Lane Sugarworks]

Last fall I just ran power to my place and I put in roughly 300' of 1/0 pre-stranded(2 hot wires and a ground) direct bury and that wire was under $2 ft. That was aluminun wire too. But I put it in conduit anyway to be safe. And if I need to change it to larger wire, just pull it out and slide the new wire in. I'm sure prices have gone up though being after the first of the year.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

I'm not a professional and don't know much about electricity, but if I would run that much underground, I would definitely put it in conduit as Ryan suggested. It is protected much better and could easily be upgraded as he pointed out.

[Fred Henderson]

PVC conduit is easy to handle and put together. Just be sure that if you go under a driveway to use metal under there then go back to PVC. I my own application I use PVC and the dircet burial ALU wire. The wire is no different just the insulating jacket on it.

[tapper]

My sugarhouse is approximatley 300 ft. from the source of power. I originally had 10-2 direct bury wire in ground but broke it taking out a tree stump. Instead of repairing that wire I temporarily ran 12-2 direct bury but just laid it out on the ground. I did everything you are not supposed to do with that wire with no problems and used it that way for 3 seasons. Last season I ran the entire sugar house on that wire including blower on the arch 2 4' florecent lights and sap transfer pump. Initial start of the pump about killed the lights for just a second but I expected that. Now I have 100 amp entrance cable buried 2 feet down in cunduit with a 20 place sub panel to work out of at the sugar house. It wasnt cheap at the time but now the cost is negligable considering all that I can do with it.

[Breezy Lane Sugarworks]

why use metal(galvinized) conduit? won't it rust out? Where mine crossed the road I went from to sch. 40 to sch. 80 for under the road and 10' to either side, and then back to sch. 40 for the rest of the way. And yes, the pvc is very easy to work with.

[Fred Henderson]

why use metal(galvinized) conduit? won't it rust out? Where mine crossed the road I went from to sch. 40 to sch. 80 for under the road and 10' to either side, and then back to sch. 40 for the rest of the way. And yes, the pvc is very easy to work with.

I not up on the code anymore so maybe sch 80 is OK. I know it use to be that if I went under a roadway that I had to use steel. I would have to borrow a code book to see what is allowed. Sometimes what is allowed is up to the inspector. Keep him happy and all will be well.

[MR Electrician]

Porfessional help!!!!!!!!!!!! who are you chidding? Using second had wire in my book is not a good thing. We have been telling Syrupman how to do it right and not start a fire and you suggest second hand wire. In the interest of keeping the cost down I would use # 8 Alu.

uhm what difference is it going to make when its buried in the ground

oh and fyi #8 aluminum is only capable of carrying 30 amps .
then it needs to be terminated in cu/al devices then all the conections need to be treated with nolox its an anti oxidant specially designed for aluminum.
anything else you wanna know fred?

[MR Electrician]

I not up on the code anymore so maybe sch 80 is OK. I know it use to be that if I went under a roadway that I had to use steel. I would have to borrow a code book to see what is allowed. Sometimes what is allowed is up to the inspector. Keep him happy and all will be well.

last time i buried under a driveway we used scepter sced 40 burried 18" deep
ans a 2x8 layed on top of the sandlayer.
but i agree ask the local inspector its his call to pass it.

[Fred Henderson]

Things are a little different here in the US. We can terminate with al right to the lug and we do use the nolox or similar, we don't have to but its for our own good and with #8 al we are allowed to fuse it at 40 amps. There are a lot of things that we as electricians can do that is not code and we get away with . For example way back in the early years of making copper wire because there was more actual copper in the alloy mix a strand of #14 could safely be fused at 20 amps. Todays code in the US won't let us go over 15 amps.

[maplecrest]

last week was an eye opener for me. i had or have 100 amp service to my sugar house now. that ran everthing till now. wanting to go to a bigger r/o a got into amp issues. my old 5hp would draw 94 amps to start on a 50 amp breaker. when i went to 7.5 hp with two membrains the start up is 138 amps on a 60 amp breaker. my service suddenly is too small and will not start the new machine[this may start it but am being told wire heat and unsafe with current set up].so if you are considering any future toys take my hard learned lesson and do it right the first time.

[MR Electrician]

Things are a little different here in the US. We can terminate with al right to the lug and we do use the nolox or similar, we don't have to but its for our own good and with #8 al we are allowed to fuse it at 40 amps. There are a lot of things that we as electricians can do that is not code and we get away with . For example way back in the early years of making copper wire because there was more actual copper in the alloy mix a strand of #14 could safely be fused at 20 amps. Todays code in the US won't let us go over 15 amps.

the us code and the canadian code are identical as they both colaborate with each other .

the 30 amp rating for #8 al is for ontario as we have our own hydro code .
the nolox is a must. theyre even making a penetrox for cu to cu conections so look forward to using that in the near future.
as for a 20 a fuse on #14 we too can do that as long as its in the kitchen or on a motor load ,to allow for start up.

[MR Electrician]

last week was an eye opener for me. i had or have 100 amp service to my sugar house now. that ran everthing till now. wanting to go to a bigger r/o a got into amp issues. my old 5hp would draw 94 amps to start on a 50 amp breaker. when i went to 7.5 hp with two membrains the start up is 138 amps on a 60 amp breaker. my service suddenly is too small and will not start the new machine[this may start it but am being told wire heat and unsafe with current set up].so if you are considering any future toys take my hard learned lesson and do it right the first time.

ok here your answer
install a kvar (KV50) power factor suppressor unit right at the motor this will give you eneough capacitance to start the motor and it wil reduce the number of amps that you draw from the pannel.


i sit on the board as director of tecnologies for this company
if your interested i will pm you the info

(i wont show the # here as i dont want to mix my hobby with my work )
ethics you wouldnt understand

[Fred Henderson]

ok here your answer
install a kvar (KV50) power factor suppressor unit right at the motor this will give you eneough capacitance to start the motor and it wil reduce the number of amps that you draw from the pannel.


i sit on the board as director of tecnologies for this company
if your interested i will pm you the info

(i wont show the # here as i dont want to mix my hobby with my work )
ethics you wouldnt understand

Is the device the same as a magnitic starter?

[MR Electrician]

Is the device the same as a magnitic starter?
no the kvar unit is a capacitor bank. it stores energy 90 % out of phase from the normal power that you consume .its like adding a battery to the system
most of the appliances in your home have one ,
otherwise the light would dimm everytime the fridge compressor turned on.

[drake1271]

i used 300 feet of old well wire. ran 2 hots (two 20 amp breakers)and shared ground and neutral at my shack..

[HHM-07]

s sappy
12 volt system and a car fan who would of thunk it , i like that kind of thinking it was right there in front of us wasn't it KEEP THINKING!!!!!