Crane 2 Post RO

[darkmachine]

I just purchased an RO, it's an older(2009) unit from a closed restaurant. I have been over the machine(not plugged it in yet), and it seems to be in very good shape for something that was in a commercial kitchen. I know it needs new membranes, i'm almost certain they are sitting in the water they were filtering when it was turned off. Also the procon pump. when i run the numbers on the pump it shows it as use only for non food grade applications, weird since it came out of a restaurant. The current pump is a 125gph, and if i'm going to buy a new pump i'd like to go to 330gph with the idea of upgrading to two 4040 membranes in the future.

The membranes are 2540, which is not typical but they are available.

Can someone tell me if i'm missing something else i should replace right off? This is my first RO so be gentlehttp://mapletrader.com/community/attachment.php?attachmentid=22509&stc=1

[darkmachine]

Had another thought while shopping for a pump and membranes. For less than the cost of two new 2540 membranes I could get a 4040 housing and membrane and change out, then add another 4040 post as I expand. The composite pressure vessels are nice though, is this just an economic/production decision or are there any good reasons to go to the 4040. Thanks in advance!

[sweet spot maple addict]

Good afternoon

Have a look at this post.

http://mapletrader.com/community/showthread.php?25884-Help-me-Design-our-RO

This is a nice unit that can eventually do good for you
The pump is probably sufficient to run two 2540 in series , and you already have the canister/housing
I dont see a pressure valve , they must be one at the exit of the second membrane
You will need a flowmeter on the permeate side and one on the concentrate side to monitor membrane operation parameters with sap , maximum recovery among other things.
But if you are up to 500 taps ....i would go for the 4040 and the procon 330 , and set up/plumb the thing for addition of a second membrane in mind !!!

Pierre
200 taps on 3/16
RO 4x40 , procon 330
A wife that understand the basic of sugar making and the complexities of the sugarmakers !!!
And a good Shetland dog named Brix.

[amasonry]

check to make sure the center holes in the membrane are 3/4 inch and not 1/2 inch. they change the standard somewhere in 2000-09. they were 1/2 inch in my waterloo 2001. just a thought.

[darkmachine]

I think i have decided on a procon 330 and the 4040 membrane(with the plan to add another later). All of the high pressure plumbing is 1/2", so i shouldn't have to mess with the concentrate side, but i will need to do some plumbing on the permeate side. I have plenty of space on the console for some panel mount flow meters. I like how the memprotec RO units prime and power up so I may also invest in some pressure switches so it won't start the procon until the booster has primed the system, and also will cut it off if the sap runs out. Seems like a pretty nice fail safe. I saw also that some put a pressure gauge on each side of the 5 micron filter so they can make sure it's not clogged, do you think just putting my pressure switch between the filter and the high pressure pump would do the same job? I just wouldn't be able to visually inspect the pressure on both sides, if pressure fell below a certain point the whole shebang would turn off.

[sweet spot maple addict]

I try to adhere to the keep it as simple as possible principle.
If you can mount the pump at the base of the unit so that sap level in your container would be 2 feet above or more
a booster pump would not be required with a procon 330.
Panel mount flowmeter will be nice , i use z3000 series order from aliexpress
You need one capable of reading about 1 gallon per minute on the permeate side and 5 gallon p/m on the concentrate side
330 gph in 6 parts = 55 gph per parts = about 1 gallon pm per parts (5:1 ratio ) = about 15 % recovery
As for the pressure monitoring on each side of the filter , if you use a filter long enough so that pressure drop is telling
you to change it , you will soon find out that you should have change it before.
I try to stick to a rigorous filter replacement depending on hours used and temperature ( remember last year ???!!! )

[darkmachine]

My biggest desire to have a low pressure cut off switch, and automation in general is that most of the time i'm the only guy in the shack. If a process can run without my attention at least while i feed the fire or have my attention directed elsewhere for a few minutes without the whole rig eating it's self, that is ideal. Anything that can help me to keep my focus on firing.

As far as pump location, it is currently located about halfway up the frame, about 2-3 feet off the ground. I would have to drill holes in the base to move the pump, but i will have to drill holes in the base to add a feed pump so i will have to give it some thought.

I looked at those flow meters and the lead time on them is the end of October, i'm not typically impatient, but i will probably try to get them from somewhere else so i can get it put together sooner.

I also have a UV lamp I have been using when I unload my sap after collection. I may pipe my concentrate through that before it goes into my feed tank. Just a little extra protection if it has to sit for some unexpected reason.

I appreciate all the input, i'll post some pictures to this thread once the parts start to go together.

[darkmachine]

The order is in, I decided to go with two 40-40 membranes and a 330 gph stainless steel procon. The motor that I have is 1/2 horsepower but it is within spec for that pump so hopefully it will work. I have a grimm lightning brand UV light I had been using four sap, does anyone see a reason why it would hurt to plumb it in on my concentrate line before it goes into the feed tank just in case the concentrate has to sit longer than necessary?

[bmbmkr]

You are goin to love your RO. This forum is GREAT!! I didn't know what an RO was 6 years ago, and now I'm doin my 3rd upgrade to a used single post unit I bought for the 2018 season. Have fun with it, prayin for good weather this season!!

[sweet spot maple addict]

Two 40-40 will make a nice set up
Do you plan to plumb paralell or in series ?
1/2 HP is within spec ?
From my experience a 3/4HP with a procon 330 and one 40-40 delivers the 330 gpm but
does not build pressure over 200 for long without overheating.
I think you should consider 1 1/2 HP

[darkmachine]

My plan was just to run them in series, as in the flow will run from the pump to the first membrane, then to the second. My concentrate line will come off my second membrane housing, and i'll time the two permeate lines together. This was the configuration the RO i started with used. At this point I'm in about $1200 with the parts, if i can make the 1/2 horse work this season, i'll likely go to a 3/4 or more next season. Id have to dig into the tubing budget to upgrade the motor at this point. The spec sheet that came with the procon had a range of operating hp starting at 1/4 and going up with an operating rpm of 1725. I have not purchased my membranes yet. I could wait to add the second membrane until next season and just plumb in one vessel. feedback is good! I've never used an RO before, any information or experience is helpful.

[bmbmkr]

https://www.proconpumps.com/content/Series%205%20Pump_spec.pdf This is the pump curve for the Procon 330 ( and smaller).

1/2 hp is only going to get you to 100 PSI. You'll be lucky to get 50/50 with 100 PSI. With 500 taps you are goin to want more flow than that. Unless of course you are boiling off with a 75-100 gph evaporator. I got my 1 1/2 hp Leeson for $200 from surplus supply center. They are gettin hard to find though, mostly 2 hp out there now, and hard to find a 56C in 1725 RPM. Is your pump the clamp ring kind or the bolt on?

[darkmachine]

I purchased the clamp on type because it matched the motor and pump that was originally on the RO. I only have 110v at the shack, i haven't seen many motors that are over 3/4 hp that aren't 220v. The pump that was on it was 102A125F11XX, it made 200psi with two 2.5" x 40 membranes(instructions said to run at 200psi). I realize sap is not water. Can i still expect the same concentration exiting the machine even if it's not at a higher rate. If i understnad correctly pressure is what will increase the permeate flow, speeding up the concentration.

[sweet spot maple addict]

Once Pressure created by the closure of the restriction valve is over the force of osmotic pressure , permeate flow is initiated.
Over a certain maximum pressure ........fouling is initiated !!!!
Your RO made 200psi with two 2.5 inches, maybe , but you will now be pushing through two 4 inches .

[darkmachine]

The membranes I am considering might compensate somewhat for a lower pressure concentrate because of a lower horsepower motor.
from the membrane listing...


XLP-4040 standard flow is 2300 GPD @ 100 PSI ,Now if you lower the pressure to 60 PSI, pressure lowered 40% ,therefore permeate flow will be approximately 1440GPD
​I am sure this is just for water, but i'll record my results!

[carls47807]

You need at least 100psi to get an efficient separation from 2 to 4% sugar. If you want to go over 4%, I would shoot for 200psi. Those gpd numbers from the manufacturer are for 60 F water. At sap temp the membrane is about 1/4 as efficient at pulling water. With a single 4x40 you would want a minimum 1hp motor if you are using a 330gph. You can get by with a 3/4hp if you run less than 150psi, but you may have issues with a constant duty cycle.

Luckily for the vane type pumps, the flow rate is relatively independent of pressure (you will get the full 330gph across the membrane regardless of what pressure you run at). This helps keep fouling down.

[darkmachine]

You need at least 100psi to get an efficient separation from 2 to 4% sugar. If you want to go over 4%, I would shoot for 200psi. Those gpd numbers from the manufacturer are for 60 F water. At sap temp the membrane is about 1/4 as efficient at pulling water. With a single 4x40 you would want a minimum 1hp motor if you are using a 330gph. You can get by with a 3/4hp if you run less than 150psi, but you may have issues with a constant duty cycle.

Luckily for the vane type pumps, the flow rate is relatively independent of pressure (you will get the full 330gph across the membrane regardless of what pressure you run at). This helps keep fouling down.

It seems like my pump choice may have been less than ideal. I can't seem to find a motor that is more than 3/4hp that uses the collar style attachment. The motor that is on the unit is 100% duty cycle, so it should run ok as long as i don't over work it, it may be on the warm side...I'll keep looking for a bigger motor...if anyone has one, or knows where i can purchase one let me know!

[bmbmkr]

The membranes I am considering might compensate somewhat for a lower pressure concentrate because of a lower horsepower motor.
from the membrane listing...


XLP-4040 standard flow is 2300 GPD @ 100 PSI ,Now if you lower the pressure to 60 PSI, pressure lowered 40% ,therefore permeate flow will be approximately 1440GPD
​I am sure this is just for water, but i'll record my results!

Membranes are rated for 70F Water, you are goin to running 33-40F sap through em, the efficiency% goes WAY down. I got my first membranes from amazon, they were supposed to be Dow XLE 4040's ( Extra Low Energy) they were supposed to be 2800 GPD if I remember right. One of em was a Dow, the other a chinese knockoff. H20, CDL and MES and maybe more, all sell membranes made specific to sap production in the 2600-2800 GPD range that require less pressure.

With the 1/2hp pump, I don't think you'll have to worry about passing sugar or fouling the membranes. That's a plus. How fast is your evaporator?

[darkmachine]

The membranes are from Maxx water, they mention maple production in their listing. I considered MES, I may still go with them. I found my solution though, Kleenrite sells an adapter for 56c motor to allow you to use a clamp on procon. I get about 35 to 40 with good dry wood. Ro this year new flu pan and preheater next season.

[bmbmkr]

That adapter is cool! much cheaper than the aluminum one. Glad ya found it. I got both my Procons from Edco distributing. Got my adapter for the 330 at Kleenrite, and the one for my new 660 I got from Mcmaster Carr. They must have a warehouse next to the UPS terminal, I ordered on Thursday and it was at my house on Friday morning.

[darkmachine]

Well I got the whole setup stripped to the frame and started with the mounting hardware for the two membranes. With all the parts i am not going to use i should have not purchased the RO to begin with, lol. I guess the pump as it is, along with the two 2.5" vessels would make someone a decent equivalent to a single post 4040 unit. maybe i'll post them as a package , bring your own needle valve and gauges, lol. I will say the frame is nice and even though i begrudge the expense of 800.00 bucks on the unit i'll still be under 2k for a pretty nice new RO. I'll post some pictures once I start to get everything mounted and plumbed.

[darkmachine]

Had a few minutes in the shop today and was able to get my pressure vessels mounted today. You can see the high pressure pump, I have a feed pump to mount on the plate on the bottom. Next project is the control panel, mounting the switches, relay, pressure gauge and flow meters. and before i finish the plumbing decide if i want to upgrade the motor.http://mapletrader.com/community/attachment.php?attachmentid=22585&stc=1

[bmbmkr]

She's looking good!

[darkmachine]

I'm at a crossroads. I am upgrading the pressure pump motor to 1.5hp. My question is should a purchase a second needle valve for re-circulation OR use the 1/2hp motor and pump that came with the unit for re-circulation. I can't recall right off hand but the procon(it's brass) that came with the unit is rated at about 125gph. I have read that a pump is more effective at slowing membrane fouling, and since I have it, technically it's cheaper than buying a needle valve, is my answer that simple?

Thanks

[bmbmkr]

That's what am doing with my upgrade. A second needle valve after the first feeds the recirculation pump. After the pump, a check valve, and plumb it onto the main pump output.

With a passive recirculation loop, you plumb the recirculation into the main pump feed.

I can't get my diagram to load but if you email me I'll send you my schematic. bmbmkr@yahoo.com

Walk

[sweet spot maple addict]

I'm not sure if you are finally using a procon 330.
With 2 4X40 in series , you will push 330 through the first one , about 40 gph will permeate ,
290 will be pushed through the second one , another 40gph will permeate, so 250 gph should exit the second one .
If you "bleed" 30 gph of concentrate , that gives you 220 gph for the recirculation loop , and a system that process 110gph of fresh 2%sap ( you will not be throwing out sap !!! )
A 125 gph pump within the recirculation loop might actually exert a restriction on the possible flow of 220gph.
A needle valve is required on the recirculation loop, and will be use as the restriction valve that puts the final operating pressure on the membrane.

Save woods for the coming cold spell
and have a great season

[sweet spot maple addict]

Ok now i understand .
Mine is a passive recirculation
Yours would be plumbed within the pressure loop ( after the pump)
Question for you Walk, when you do that , do you have to push within the pressure loop at a pressure above what is given by the main feed pump ? or is the check valve taking care of this ? What are the main advantages of this over a passive recirculation ?

[darkmachine]

I'm not sure if you are finally using a procon 330.
With 2 4X40 in series , you will push 330 through the first one , about 40 gph will permeate ,
290 will be pushed through the second one , another 40gph will permeate, so 250 gph should exit the second one .
If you "bleed" 30 gph of concentrate , that gives you 220 gph for the recirculation loop , and a system that process 110gph of fresh 2%sap ( you will not be throwing out sap !!! )
A 125 gph pump within the recirculation loop might actually exert a restriction on the possible flow of 220gph.
A needle valve is required on the recirculation loop, and will be use as the restriction valve that puts the final operating pressure on the membrane.

Save woods for the coming cold spell
and have a great season

I'll be using a procon 330gph with 1.5hp motor for my pressure pump. The membranes are in series. Instead of a needle valve bleeding off pressure and piping it to just before the procon 330(passive recirculation) i was going to put the smaller procon after the second membrane, T off right before the needle valve regulating the pressure and then back to a T between the procon 330 and the first vessel. I have seen this kind of setup on a memprotec where they use a high volume pump to generate flow over the membranes, and the pressure pump to create the pressure. Am i making sense?

[darkmachine]

Ok now i understand .
Mine is a passive recirculation
Yours would be plumbed within the pressure loop ( after the pump)
Question for you Walk, when you do that , do you have to push within the pressure loop at a pressure above what is given by the main feed pump ? or is the check valve taking care of this ? What are the main advantages of this over a passive recirculation ?

My thought is that as long as i put a one way valve after my circulation pump before it t's back in it shouldn't restrict the flow of the pressure pump, i could be wrong. I've been trying to look at as many commercial RO machines as i can to see if i can incorporate any improvements.

[sweet spot maple addict]

Passive recirculation or poor,s man recirculation as sometimes described on the post , is plumbing a recirculation loop outside of the pressure loop ( tee,s out after the valve and tee's in before the pump) i understand it offers the advantages of a standard brix coming out at a given flow. And reduces fouling : what is recirculated is already filtered , and the flow of the recirculation is not restricted by the filter. It also contibute to a more uniform sugar gradient along the membrane.
Recirculation like the memprotec are plumbed inside the pressure loop ( tee,s out before the valve, and tee,s in after the pump) As i understand it the high volume pump is different than a positive displacement pump (procon) . The objective of this high volume pump is not to provide pressure , since it is plumbed inside the loop already pressurized by the procon, but indeed to provide higher velocity which translate in high flow and increase "laminar flow" that greatly reduces fouling.

[darkmachine]

Passive recirculation or poor,s man recirculation as sometimes described on the post , is plumbing a recirculation loop outside of the pressure loop ( tee,s out after the valve and tee's in before the pump) i understand it offers the advantages of a standard brix coming out at a given flow. And reduces fouling : what is recirculated is already filtered , and the flow of the recirculation is not restricted by the filter. It also contibute to a more uniform sugar gradient along the membrane.
Recirculation like the memprotec are plumbed inside the pressure loop ( tee,s out before the valve, and tee,s in after the pump) As i understand it the high volume pump is different than a positive displacement pump (procon) . The objective of this high volume pump is not to provide pressure , since it is plumbed inside the loop already pressurized by the procon, but indeed to provide higher velocity which translate in high flow and increase "laminar flow" that greatly reduces fouling.

So i guess the question is, is it worth it to plumb in the extra procon I have that only makes 125gph. "worth it" as in keeping the membranes cleaner, or should i not worry about it unless i have a pump with a higher flow rate.

[darkmachine]

I'm not sure if you are finally using a procon 330.
With 2 4X40 in series , you will push 330 through the first one , about 40 gph will permeate ,
290 will be pushed through the second one , another 40gph will permeate, so 250 gph should exit the second one .
If you "bleed" 30 gph of concentrate , that gives you 220 gph for the recirculation loop , and a system that process 110gph of fresh 2%sap ( you will not be throwing out sap !!! )
A 125 gph pump within the recirculation loop might actually exert a restriction on the possible flow of 220gph.
A needle valve is required on the recirculation loop, and will be use as the restriction valve that puts the final operating pressure on the membrane.

Save woods for the coming cold spell
and have a great season

I went back and re-read the thread, and somehow i missed the part where my question about using the 125gph pump for recirc might be a bottle neck, lol. That's what I get for skimming. Thanks Sweet Spot Maple. Looks like a second needle valve is in my future. Down the road when i upgrade to an 8" membrane maybe i'll go with a shallow well pump for re-circulation.

[bmbmkr]

I went back and re-read the thread, and somehow i missed the part where my question about using the 125gph pump for recirc might be a bottle neck, lol. That's what I get for skimming. Thanks Sweet Spot Maple. Looks like a second needle valve is in my future. Down the road when i upgrade to an 8" membrane maybe i'll go with a shallow well pump for re-circulation.


Recirculation, with or without a pump, increases concentration. Recirculation with a second pump increases flow and concentration.

Procons are positive displacement pumps, as long as your HP for your recirculation pump motor meets the pump curve and can build the same pressure as your pressure pump, it will increase flow, thus reducing fouling. 330gph (5.5 gpm) + 125 (2gpm) = 7.5 gpm or 33% more flow.

What Sweet Spot brought to my attention- the recirculation feed teeing off the concentrate output of the membrane before the main pressure concentration valve. In the schematic I drew up, and the RO I have 90% complete, I put a second needle valve after the main concentration valve to feed the recirc pump so that I could choose whether to recirculate or not. The only reason I used a needle valve instead of a ball or gate valve, was because i already had it. I HAVE been pondering whether enough the small port would allow enough flow to feed my pump. This is what I love about this firum, so easy to learn if you take the time to read. SO my second control valve is coming off and a tee goin on.

On to the check valve.

The reason I put a check valve in between the recirculation out put and pressure pump feed is so the pressure pump doesn't push the initial feed into the recirc pump backwards. I kinda figured this one out on my own, and another member commented on one of my previous threads confirmed that this is how he plumbed his system. He was using the same size pressure pump as recirculation pump- that's something for me to wrap my head around another time.

I've just revised my drawing, and I have an excel spreadsheet you can punch in your RO and evaporator/tap#'s I can email it- if you want a copy let me know bmbmkr@yahoo.com

Y'all have a good one,

Ben Walker

[sweet spot maple addict]

I am in a continuous learning process, and as i see it , it is gone take me life to learn living !!!

A positive displacement pump is designed to build pressure. It does that by physically trapping a volume of liquid and forcing it to move forward ( within the vanes in the case of procon). If you put a restriction on the outcoming flow, a proportionally pressure results. A procon 330 as example has an internal capacity/dimension to move a volume of 330gph forward and a 125 has the internal dimension to move 125 gph. As i understand if you plumb a 125 in front of a 330, you will not get 455 , where would that liquid be coming from ? And a volume of 330 gph cannot be physically push through a 125 without a restriction .

[darkmachine]

First it was wait on parts...then it was wait on time...Today time and parts finally overlapped. I was able to fit the pressure pump, and see where i want to place my feed pump. I also was able to sort out the 8 wires that come out of the pump motor and get them wired to a pressure switch. I think i mentioned in an earlier post that the original RO has this fail safe, it would not stay running unless it had head pressure to the procon. I thought it was a nice feature to preserve. The needle valve for re-circulation came today along with the membranes. I have to go recover my switches for the build from a factory elevator control i salvaged....it's in a pile...in the barn. Need to mount my flow meters...and likely take one more trip to the hardware store for fittings. Hope this thing does what it's supposed to do!

https://photos.app.goo.gl/D7F5EvDvFiVdSEd39https://photos.app.goo.gl/D7F5EvDvFiVdSEd39 (https://photos.app.goo.gl/D7F5EvDvFiVdSEd39)

[darkmachine]

I notice on some RO's have a thermal shutoff switch, can someone share their experience with a thermal shutdown of their RO? What were the conditions, how long had you been running, were the membranes fouled? Just trying to figure out if it's a feature that is necessary in my build.

[wiam]

Thermal shut down is for washing. It is to keep the membranes from getting over temp.

[darkmachine]

Thermal shut down is for washing. It is to keep the membranes from getting over temp.
So the condition is that you are cycling the warm wash liquid and it gets warmer while washing?

[wiam]

Correct. The liquid gets warmer from the friction of pumping.

[darkmachine]

IT'S ALIVE!!!!!!!! and surprisingly no leaks. Still need to run through the logic for the start and stop buttons and the relays, right now i just plug in the feed pump and when it builds to 45psi it kicks on the pressure pump, and when I run out of sap it kicks off. I installed the membranes and ran 150 gallons of clean well water through it, membranes are new, seemed to go pretty fast, i am sure with sap it will slow way down. I'll measure my sap before and after tomorrow. I considered running the 375 gallons i have through it tonight, but then i thought maybe my first run shouldn't be in the dark?


https://photos.app.goo.gl/MwwjZB5TrQRv2uKP8

[darkmachine]

The results are in, it works. I think I still need to dial it in a little, I think going from 2 to 4% is pretty common for a 2 x4040 setup. any suggestions for improving performance are appreciated. It saved enough time yesterday i didn't have to walk back from the shack in the dark.

Hydrometer readings before and after: https://photos.app.goo.gl/44SbCz7sUVf3cz789

[darkmachine]

Did some fine tuning while running today, i think i have the re-circulation dialed in. It ran up to 6% this evening moved 305 gallons through it and then boiled....just amazing.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/ASxYBGuhzgXVKckF7

[darkmachine]

Thought i would chime in, and give an update on season two with some results from the RO i built. If i push it I can get 8% with recirculation, but bow howdy is it slow. If I set it to where i get 4.5 to 5% it is pretty well matched with my 2x6. I still need to get those fancy buttons wired up though...lol.http://mapletrader.com/community/attachment.php?attachmentid=22880&stc=1