How many trees is too many?

[Swingpure]

I guess having too many trees is a good problem to have, but biting off more than you can handle could be a bad thing.

This will be my rookie year and an argument can be made for starting off with just a few trees and learning what to do and when, and another argument can be made that the more opportunities to boil and finish, the more you can learn.

There are also other factors that come into play that will be different, for different people.

The more trees you tackle, the greater the time required, the greater the effort, the greater the cost, the greater the amount of wood you will need and if you are not selling it, how much syrup do you really need.

For me time isn’t a restraint, I am retired and my Sugar Bush (for the moment) is right out my back door. It will put a crimp in my end of the year ice fishing though. (Which is right outside the other door)

I like working hard, so the effort won’t be a factor, unless I go really crazy.

Now my two constraints are cost and firewood. According to my wife, I have already exceeded my budget, but buying more pails/lids and spouts are still okay as I can get them half price from another syrup maker. There is still the cost of the jars and bottles, but that is 6 months from now, so that should be okay. (Now when I go to buy the $500, 2x4 pan with a ball valve and temperature gauge next year, that is where the discussions will start.)

Fire wood is gold for me. I heat my house 95%+ with wood. I need 15 face cords each year and I always find a way to scrounge it. Now that we have an ice hut, I have to scrounge at least another face cord. Now for the evaporator, I built a wood rack that holds 2.5 face cords. That was good for when I was tapping 16 to 21 trees. I am up to 32 taps now and will be over 40 next week and could be over 50 the week after, if I want them.

I made myself a table on excel, of how much wood I would need, depending on the number of taps I had. I based it on getting a litre(US quart) a tree and made two tables one with a cinder block efficiency of 10 US gallons made, per one full cord and the other 12 US gallons made, per full cord.

Going with an efficiency of 10 gallons per full cord, I could tap 30 trees with the wood I currently have stacked. I would need another 1.5 face cords to tap up to 49 trees.

With an efficiency of 12 US gallons per full cord, I could have 38 taps with the wood already stacked and I would need an additional .75 of a face cord to have enough wood to do 49 trees. So how much seasoned wood I have stacked before the snow flies will be definitely be a determining factor in how many trees I tap.

Now the big question, as a backyarder and not a seller, is how much syrup do I really need. I would like to give my two adult kids 4 litres (1 US gallon) each. I have 7 neighbours that I would give a total of 8 litres (2 US gallons) and if I use other properties, that could cost me another 4 litres (1 US gallon). Now there is 7 siblings and 3 people who shared their syrup with us, that I would give 500 ml to, so that is another 5 litres (1.25 US gallons). I would like 8 litres (2 US gallons) for ourselves.

That adds up to 38 litres, or almost 10 US gallons. That would mean 38 taps required, if all went right. There will be inefficiencies and bad years, so doing up to 49 trees would not be out of the question. I better get cutting and splitting. I can rob my house seasoned firewood for this year, but would have to have the replacement wood already split and stacked in another location.

All of my friends here, would laugh at me for this post, as they would say I am way over thinking it.

22491

[aamyotte]

It would be surprising how much syrup you need. I barely used syrup before starting my operation. Yesterday I finished off the last of my syrup. I only managed to make 4.7l this year but 4 months later it's all gone.

[MISugarDaddy]

Swingpure,
You must have been an accountant or auditor, with all those calculations you have made. My wife and I were both auditors before we retired and it makes it difficult to "sneak" anything by either of us when it comes to spending money. Now with that said, I am fortunate that my wife agreed with my "hobby" of making syrup. I don't think either of us ever expected it to get to the level it has gotten to when we started. We also use wood to supply most of the heat in our house and use 15 face cords for that purpose. Since we stock 2 years worth of wood ahead each year, wood wasn't an issue, but I had no idea of how much time it would take to boil down sap on a 2' by 4' evaporator. Our first year we tapped 130 trees and I found myself swimming in sap. So much so, that after 5 days of collecting, I told my wife to remove the containers from the trees because I had so much sap to boil.

Our first year we produced 5 gallons of syrup. We kept 3 gallons for ourselves and gave a pint to each family member, with the request that they tell us how they liked it. Only 3 family members responded to our request, so they are now the only people that we give syrup to each year. Since that first year we have spent thousands and thousands of dollars expanding and upgrading our equipment and buildings and now produce about 100 gallons of syrup a year. We both look forward to each syrup season and have no regrets.
Gary

[Swingpure]

Today I marked 10 new taps on the property just north of me and 21 new taps on a property, a 10 minute ATV ride away. That totals 64 taps counting the ones I identified before. That is too many, time wise for me to gather the sap and do all of the other things. I will likely eliminate at least 10 taps when the time comes, as I determine they are too difficult to get to. I am also going to run two 5 tap lines to help reduce the time to collect the sap. I may do some others as well. Doing 64 trees would almost double the wood I originally required. I will try to get more over the next couple of weeks to close the gap of wood I have, versus what I need. Tapping 50 trees would be a good target. Now to learn how to run lines.

[DRoseum]

There is lots of great information on how to hang tubing on this site. Keep it tight and downhill and use hollow woven rope over the tubing towards the end to keep it taut. A tubing tool is key for new line installation. It helps you cut in your drops, holds the line for you, and presses your fittings in beautifully.

Here is a little video we did this past season when hanging our 3/16th tubing - it covers the basics:

https://youtu.be/FYQFpBrbSd4

[Swingpure]

Great video, it helped me understand what to do. Is there any advantage of doing 3/16 vs 5/16” tubing and spiles? I will be doing 5/16 spiles for my tree hung 2 gallon buckets and for my drop lines into 5 gallon buckets.

I understand that the drop line has to be taunt, with a good slope on it, but can it zig zag a little to catch some trees, not dead in line?

I will not have a vacuum suction pump, do I need a raised line at the start to put pressure on the sap to run down hill? ( I know there is a term for the raised line, but it escapes me)

Thank you

Gary

[DRoseum]

Zig-zagging is fine, but don't go overboard. Too much zig-zagging uses more tubing and reduces the vertical drop per linear foot which reduces efficiency of the line (friction). If you have very wide zip zag paths perhaps consider running 2 lines to minimize that.

3/16 is used when you have fairly large elevation drops and can induce natural vacuum on the tree taps. The size is optimized between friction losses and not allowing air bubbles pass and the sap itself acts as a piston in a cylinder, pulling a vacuum behind it and drawing out more sap. You want about 15 trees per line if using 3/16 and about 25-30 feet of total elevation drop with about 10 feet of drop at the end to maximize the benefits of 3/16.

5/16 works well for everything else.

No need to elevate your line above you highest tap. Just get it as high as you can on that tree. Use a line end hook fitting that let's you wrap the tubing around the tree and cinch it tight. The end hooks have a fitting for a drop line/tap as well.

[DRoseum]

Also - 50 to 60 trees is going to keep you very busy on a 4 or 5 steam pan block arch. General rule of thumb is about 1 gallon per hour of evaporation per square foot of pan. Assuming excellent efficiency that might put you in the 8 - 10 gph evaporation range. On a decent run you will get 2 gallons per tap. Average day will be more like 0.5 - 1 gallon per tap. So low end would be 25 gallons per day, resulting in 4+ hr boil. On a big day, you could have 120 gallons, resulting in a 15 hr boil.

Have you considered building a small Reverse Osmosis (RO) unit to cut your boiling time and wood usage in half or even more?

Its the absolute best thing I did. It let's me tap way more trees, use way less fuel and get it done way faster. There is tons of info on this site about how to build a small scale DIY unit. They are reasonably priced when you do it yourself.

I'd be glad to give you some recommendations on this as well. I have built 2 of these. One used the biggest aquatec pump and the 2nd used the biggest coronwater pump (even high flowrate). I moved up from 36 trees to 100 when I made that change.

RO basics: https://youtu.be/s106bSrcfno
2nd unit I built: https://youtu.be/9_Eq_sq6Tp0

[Swingpure]

Once again great videos and thanks for the information and advice.

I priced out the parts in Canada and I can darn near purchased a CDL already made, RO unit for the same money. I do see getting whatever RO unit in the future, but for this being my first year and still seeing how hooked I will get, and also with already a fair outlay of cash getting set up with my evaporator, portable sugar shed and all of the buckets, lids, spiles, and other equipment, I will save the cost of the RO unit for next year.

I do 100% realize it would make things easier this year and would solve my wood problem. I also appreciate I have a lot of boil hours ahead of me. If I find of way of affording it before the spring I will get one. It would allow me to tap all 64 trees.

Thanks again for your advice and time. I go visit CDL on Wednesday and will get more stuff. I also pick up my bottling kettle on Wednesday, a large funnel and an 8 gallon stainless steel pot to hold partially boiled sap, that I did not complete on the long boiled days.

[Swingpure]

Zig-zagging is fine, but don't go overboard. Too much zig-zagging uses more tubing and reduces the vertical drop per linear foot which reduces efficiency of the line (friction). If you have very wide zip zag paths perhaps consider running 2 lines to minimize that.

3/16 is used when you have fairly large elevation drops and can induce natural vacuum on the tree taps. The size is optimized between friction losses and not allowing air bubbles pass and the sap itself acts as a piston in a cylinder, pulling a vacuum behind it and drawing out more sap. You want about 15 trees per line if using 3/16 and about 25-30 feet of total elevation drop with about 10 feet of drop at the end to maximize the benefits of 3/16.

5/16 works well for everything else.

No need to elevate your line above you highest tap. Just get it as high as you can on that tree. Use a line end hook fitting that let's you wrap the tubing around the tree and cinch it tight. The end hooks have a fitting for a drop line/tap as well.

I have a steep slope where I am doing most of the tapping on my property, as you can see by my driveway in the attached picture. Looking at it, it makes sense for me to do: Two, seven tap lines, one six tap line and one four tap line. Is that kosher? It would reduce 24 pick up locations to four. I would have a 5 gallon pail at the receiving end of the lines.

I am leaning towards 5/16 line and will chat with the CDL guy about it Wednesday.

If you have tree 2 about three feet off line of a stretched line between trees 1 and 3, could you run a three foot drop line to the line running between 1 and 3, or do you have to run the line to tree 2?

I have seen two tools used when they were running lines. One was a too, that was simply for cutting the line. The other tool held the line, cut it, and squeezed the two ends of the line onto a fitting. Are any, or both essential?

22500

[DRoseum]

I have a steep slope where I am doing most of the tapping on my property, as you can see by my driveway in the attached picture. Looking at it, it makes sense for me to do: Two, seven tap lines, one six tap line and one four tap line. Is that kosher? It would reduce 24 pick up locations to four. I would have a 5 gallon pail at the receiving end of the lines.

I am leaning towards 5/16 line and will chat with the CDL guy about it Wednesday.

If you have tree 2 about three feet off line of a stretched line between trees 1 and 3, could you run a three foot drop line to the line running between 1 and 3, or do you have to run the line to tree 2?

I have seen two tools used when they were running lines. One was a too, that was simply for cutting the line. The other tool held the line, cut it, and squeezed the two ends of the line onto a fitting. Are any, or both essential?

22500

I would suggest running it right around that tree. Small zig zags like that is totally normal. I was previously referring to large (like 30 feet) and multiple zip zags that might make sense to separate that into 2 lines.

You might overflow 5 gallon pails unless you plan to collect multiple times a day.

The tool that has the line, cuts it, squeezes in the fitting is awesome - highly recommend that type of tool.

CDL rep will steer you in the right direction. Both sizes are good, but with right slope and right number of trees on the line, 3/16 has been shown to double sap yield.

[Swingpure]

You might overflow 5 gallon pails unless you plan to collect multiple times a day.

The tool that has the line, cuts it, squeezes in the fitting is awesome - highly recommend that type of tool.

Not sure what else to put at the end to catch the sap. Whatever it is I would have to drain into 5 gallon pails or scoop it out. They would be in places I could not get my ATV close. I will have to research the best option.

I just checked the cost of that tool. I could almost get an RO unit for the cost of it. Slick tool though. Maybe I should have taken up this hobby before I retired so I could afford the cool equipment.

[Swingpure]

I could just add a second five gallon pail beside the other one to collect the sap, with a tube joining the two together, near the top, with the second pail sitting slightly lower. That would double my capacity. I am sure there still will be days that I will have to check them twice, that that would be better than checking 24, 2 gallon pails twice.

If I come across a deal on larger capacity containers with spouts I will add them.

I am looking forward to my meeting with CDL tomorrow.

[TapTapTap]

For what it's worth -

lf I was challenged to find additional firewood then I'd be thinking of a different fuel for my evaporator. Besides, there's only so much logging/hauling/buckingup/splitting/stacking a person wants to do and you're already near my limit. What are you going to do in a few more years when working hard isn't as easy as it used to be?


Ken

[berkshires]

You raised the question yourself: how many trees is too many. Here is a mental exercise: Do you really want to tackle every single issue in maple sugaring on your first season? What do you want all that syrup for anyway? If you could tap half the number of trees, not have to deal with an RO, running lines, swimming in sap, finding and splitting more wood, etc, you could focus better on the important things: the boil and the bottle. And dare I say, you might do a better job of it.

Up to you.

GO

[Swingpure]

For what it's worth -

lf I was challenged to find additional firewood then I'd be thinking of a different fuel for my evaporator. Besides, there's only so much logging/hauling/buckingup/splitting/stacking a person wants to do and you're already near my limit. What are you going to do in a few more years when working hard isn't as easy as it used to be?


Ken

I turn 66 soon and although cutting down trees, cutting them up, hauling them away, splitting and stacking them is not a problem and is almost enjoyable now, I know over the course of the next ten years, that likely will change. However it will not be the source of the fuel for the evaporator that will change, it will be the source of heat for the house. Lol

[TapTapTap]

I turn 66 soon and although cutting down trees, cutting them up, hauling them away, splitting and stacking them is not a problem and is almost enjoyable now, I know over the course of the next ten years, that likely will change. However it will not be the source of the fuel for the evaporator that will change, it will be the source of heat for the house. Lol


I'm glad you have your priorities straight because I think that wood fire evaporators make the best syrup.


Ken

[Swingpure]

You raised the question yourself: how many trees is too many. Here is a mental exercise: Do you really want to tackle every single issue in maple sugaring on your first season? What do you want all that syrup for anyway? If you could tap half the number of trees, not have to deal with an RO, running lines, swimming in sap, finding and splitting more wood, etc, you could focus better on the important things: the boil and the bottle. And dare I say, you might do a better job of it.

Up to you.

GO

I hear you. I had actually decided to pass up the new area that had 21 trees. Partially because of just what you are saying and partially I did not like the fact I could not keep a close eye on it.

I am going to try the lines, figuring that should leave me more time to boil and finish. My number one goal is to make Grade A syrup. I will have about 42 trees to tap. I hope to have 1/2 to 3/4’s or the taps on line. We will see how it works.

[Swingpure]

Zig-zagging is fine, but don't go overboard. Too much zig-zagging uses more tubing and reduces the vertical drop per linear foot which reduces efficiency of the line (friction). If you have very wide zip zag paths perhaps consider running 2 lines to minimize that.

3/16 is used when you have fairly large elevation drops and can induce natural vacuum on the tree taps. The size is optimized between friction losses and not allowing air bubbles pass and the sap itself acts as a piston in a cylinder, pulling a vacuum behind it and drawing out more sap. You want about 15 trees per line if using 3/16 and about 25-30 feet of total elevation drop with about 10 feet of drop at the end to maximize the benefits of 3/16.

5/16 works well for everything else.

No need to elevate your line above you highest tap. Just get it as high as you can on that tree. Use a line end hook fitting that let's you wrap the tubing around the tree and cinch it tight. The end hooks have a fitting for a drop line/tap as well.

I went to CDL today. He suggested that I go with the 3/16 line. He said I may not have enough trees to really get the benefit of the line, that it would not hurt me and I may get some pressure benefit from it. He told me to try and connect as many trees as possible, as long as the line was tight and always going downhill. I purchased the line and the connectors today, also a tension hook. I may eventually buy a tool to put the line onto the connectors

He also told me I only had to filter once and that was after I finished it.

I bought some bottles and caps while I was there. Earlier I picked up my stainless steel bottling pot and my stainless steel 8 gallon pot, that I will use to store partially boiled sap. I also bought a 35 cm(14”) wide funnel, that I will use to direct the sap from the bucket filter into the bottling pot.

[Pdiamond]

Check out maple tech tools online. That's where I got my new one handed tool from. They are about half the price of others and work good. I pre made all my drops that I thought I was going to use last year in about twenty minutes, not bad for 50. I will have a better idea this fall when I put up the line and cut in the drops how they work out.

[Swingpure]

Check out maple tech tools online. That's where I got my new one handed tool from. They are about half the price of others and work good. I pre made all my drops that I thought I was going to use last year in about twenty minutes, not bad for 50. I will have a better idea this fall when I put up the line and cut in the drops how they work out.

Thanks, I have sent them an email to see if they ship to Canada. Sometimes the cost of bringing items across the border can make them quite expensive. Sometimes I wish I still had my house in Arizona.

I can see how that tool could really save time.

[Swingpure]

I purchased some rope and today I simulated running sap lines, trying to join up a string of trees. The first run, I connected 8 trees and used 200’ of rope. The second run, I connected 10 trees and used about 325’ of rope.

I paused and thought you only truly get the benefit of the 3/16” line, when you have 15 to 25 trees and I am not getting close to that. I then thought it made more sense for me to connect 4-6 trees and not have the long runs between some trees. It would make better use of the 600’ of hose I have. It still would be a time saver for me. It was good experience getting a feel for curving the line around the trees.

I then went over to my neighbour who removes his line at the end of the season. My first question was how well did he match up his old line with the drops and he said most of the time he ran new line, but kept his drops and reconnected them to the new line. He did keep some old line. He also said that his lines were mostly only four to five trees, because how they were located in the forest.

Once again doing a dry run has helped me understand my own variables and limitations.

[Swingpure]

Have you considered building a small Reverse Osmosis (RO) unit to cut your boiling time and wood usage in half or even more?

Its the absolute best thing I did. It let's me tap way more trees, use way less fuel and get it done way faster. There is tons of info on this site about how to build a small scale DIY unit. They are reasonably priced when you do it yourself.

I'd be glad to give you some recommendations on this as well. I have built 2 of these. One used the biggest aquatec pump and the 2nd used the biggest coronwater pump (even high flowrate). I moved up from 36 trees to 100 when I made that change.

RO basics: https://youtu.be/s106bSrcfno
2nd unit I built: https://youtu.be/9_Eq_sq6Tp0

I rewatched your first video again with the simpler setup and I understand it better now and feel like I can build this. Not sure if I will or not, but if I did, would this small unit save me about 25% of my boil time?

Can I run this during the day beside my evaporator basically outdoors, or is better to do it inside a 40° temperature garage? Outdoors, beside the evaporator would be handier, but I could be boiling somedays where it is below freezing.

Last question, if I have a 55 gallon sap container, how large of a pure water container would I need for the water extracted from the sap?

[DRoseum]

It will cut boil time and wood use in half. You can run it outside but you do not want to let the membranes freeze. It would damage them.

You should have capacity for half of your sap for the permeate output. You use that afterwards to rinse system/membranes out. So if you start with 55 gallons of sap, you will get 27.5 gallons of permeate (pure water - save this for rinse/flush) and 27.5 gallons of concentrate.

You can put concentrate back into sap barrel or into your 5 gallon buckets to feed the evap.

[Swingpure]

In your video you show one pump, but in your list of parts you show two pumps. Do I just need the one aquatec pump or equivalent?

So my plan if i build the RO, would be to collect the morning sap, put it into the 55 gallon barrel, run it through the RO and recirculate it all day into and out of the 55 gallon barrel. The permeate would go into another barrel. At the end of the day, I would empty the concentrated sap into 5 gallon pails and store them overnight with lids in snow banks. I would boil and empty the 5 gallon pails during the day and fill them again at the end of the day with the new concentrate.

In your video you talk about that you would show how to clean the system at the end of the day, is that on another video?

Would the one membrane, if you clean it daily, last a season?

Thanks

[Swingpure]

Hmmmm, reading other posts on RO’s, it seems like you should boil the concentrate as soon as possible, so that would mean collecting the sap at the end of the day, run it through the RO overnight and boil it the next day.

[DRoseum]

Just one pump is all you need. You can use either the aquatec or a coronwater pump. The aquatec is decent for smaller setups like my original build. The coronwater has a higher flowrate at 100 psi (which is the pressure you need to operate at for most membranes to work). The higher flowrate is good for larger membranes (which means faster processing) and for reducing the fouling of the membranes (more turbulent flow across membranes reduces what gets stuck in/on the membrane surfaces during processsing). I currently use that pump with 5 of the 400 gpd membranes. I repurposed the aquatec to be a vacuum pump on my 3/16 lines.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01GKG3R7U?ref=ppx_pop_mob_ap_share

https://m.aliexpress.com/i/4000770112002.html?gatewayAdapt=Pc2Msite

You will need a 24V DC power supply with at least 8 - 10 amp rating for the coronwater pump. But if you stick with 80+ taps I would recommend that pump and you can add more membranes in series later on to increase concentration. I was taking 1.5% sap to 7.5% sap before even boiling. Huge time/fuel savings. You don't have to really watch or tend to a small RO like this. It does the work while you are away, sleeping, boiling, etc. I have mine start automatically so I can be ready to start boiling as soon as I get off work.

One membrane can last years of you care for it properly. The sediment filter should be replaced often throughout the season.

Rinsing/flushing video is separate. Have one for end of season cleaning/storing as well.

Flushing: https://youtu.be/MP1NNt3b2Oo

New RO with controls: https://youtu.be/9_Eq_sq6Tp0

Anyone who bought or built an RO will tell you its the best thing they ever did. Start simple and evolve from there. Tons of great info on this site to build one. Or buy an RO bucket kit. They are not much more than sourcing all the parts yourself.

[DRoseum]

Hmmmm, reading other posts on RO’s, it seems like you should boil the concentrate as soon as possible, so that would mean collecting the sap at the end of the day, run it through the RO overnight and boil it the next day.

Yes boil the concentrate as soon as possible and store it as cold as possible if you will have slight delays in boiling. You are concentrating both the sugar the bacteria feeds on and the bacteria itself in the process. Concentrate can spoil quicker than raw sap.

[Swingpure]

With the Coronwater pump, how long would it take to process 50 gallons of sap, ready for the evaporator?

Edit: I finally understood what GPD is. I read that if the fluid is cold, it halves it’s capacity, so if I had a 400 GPD membrane, it could do 50 gallons in 6 hours if I understand it correctly. So if you have two 400 GPD membranes, does it process it any faster, or does it just take more water out?

[82cabby]

Just one pump is all you need. You can use either the aquatec or a coronwater pump. The aquatec is decent for smaller setups like my original build. The coronwater has a higher flowrate at 100 psi (which is the pressure you need to operate at for most membranes to work). The higher flowrate is good for larger membranes (which means faster processing) and for reducing the fouling of the membranes (more turbulent flow across membranes reduces what gets stuck in/on the membrane surfaces during processsing). I currently use that pump with 5 of the 400 gpd membranes. I repurposed the aquatec to be a vacuum pump on my 3/16 lines.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01GKG3R7U?ref=ppx_pop_mob_ap_share

https://m.aliexpress.com/i/4000770112002.html?gatewayAdapt=Pc2Msite

You will need a 24V DC power supply with at least 8 - 10 amp rating for the coronwater pump. But if you stick with 80+ taps I would recommend that pump and you can add more membranes in series later on to increase concentration. I was taking 1.5% sap to 7.5% sap before even boiling. Huge time/fuel savings. You don't have to really watch or tend to a small RO like this. It does the work while you are away, sleeping, boiling, etc. I have mine start automatically so I can be ready to start boiling as soon as I get off work.

One membrane can last years of you care for it properly. The sediment filter should be replaced often throughout the season.

Rinsing/flushing video is separate. Have one for end of season cleaning/storing as well.

Flushing: https://youtu.be/MP1NNt3b2Oo

New RO with controls: https://youtu.be/9_Eq_sq6Tp0

Anyone who bought or built an RO will tell you its the best thing they ever did. Start simple and evolve from there. Tons of great info on this site to build one. Or buy an RO bucket kit. They are not much more than sourcing all the parts yourself.



Would you mind posting links to the parts you used for the heater, including the 24v power supply and controller? That is a much better system than the light bulbs I use!

[Swingpure]

Thank you for patience with my RO questions. I have a few more.

If I have 50 gallons of raw sap and set the needle valve so that half of the flow goes into the concentrate barrel and the other half goes into the permeate barrel, I would have 25 gallons of each in each barrel. Let’s say that took 6 hours to accomplish. Now if instead of putting the concentrate into a separate barrel, I returned it back to the original sap barrel and ran it for 12 hours, would at one point the flow on the permeate side automatically lessen because there is less water to remove?

I understand that if you have reduced the sap from 50 gallons to 25 gallons, you have 50% less fluid to boil off saving 50% of the time and fuel. Would there also be additional savings because not only there is half the volume to boil, but it is concentrated, so it should take less time to boil 25 gallons of concentrated sap versus raw sap?

If I have lots of sap and my evaporator can boil at a rate of 8 gph and I boil for 8 hours, that is 64 gallons that I can boil. To get 64 gallons of concentrated sap, I would have to run 128 gallons of raw sap through the RO. For me that means stopping the unit twice to refill the 50 gallon raw sap barrel. Would it be okay to clean the membrane at the end of the three runs?

[82cabby]

2258822588

I am just a small operator with mostly homemade equipment, but I will try to answer as best I can. Others with more experience please feel free to correct me. I have tried to include a photo of my RO for reference.

On your first question if I am understanding it correctly: if you run the concentrate hose back into the main holding tank and run the permeate hose to a separate tank AND you keep the pressure in the system constant, you will notice the permeate flow rate slowly decrease over time as the sugar content in the main tank rises. However, the permeate flow rate will drop off slowly.

Second question: I’m not sure of the physics on that one. The higher sugar content in the concentrated sap will raise the boiling point, but it’s been my experience that water seems to leave my evaporator at a pretty constant rate until right near the end when it gets really touchy.

Third question: I think that would be ok. I’ve run 250 gallons through mine in one go before giving it a thorough cleaning. I suppose too it probably depends on the sugar content and clarity of the sap. The sap from my trees is typically pretty low in sugar content. If it’s 2% it’s a great run. 1.5% is more normal.

[Swingpure]

2258822588

I am just a small operator with mostly homemade equipment, but I will try to answer as best I can. Others with more experience please feel free to correct me. I have tried to include a photo of my RO for reference.

On your first question if I am understanding it correctly: if you run the concentrate hose back into the main holding tank and run the permeate hose to a separate tank AND you keep the pressure in the system constant, you will notice the permeate flow rate slowly decrease over time as the sugar content in the main tank rises. However, the permeate flow rate will drop off slowly.

Second question: I’m not sure of the physics on that one. The higher sugar content in the concentrated sap will raise the boiling point, but it’s been my experience that water seems to leave my evaporator at a pretty constant rate until right near the end when it gets really touchy.

Third question: I think that would be ok. I’ve run 250 gallons through mine in one go before giving it a thorough cleaning. I suppose too it probably depends on the sugar content and clarity of the sap. The sap from my trees is typically pretty low in sugar content. If it’s 2% it’s a great run. 1.5% is more normal.

Thank you!

What size (gpd) membranes do you have and is the light bulb for a heat source?

What do you use to measure the sugar content of your sap? A refractometer, or a hydrometer?

[Swingpure]

2258822588

I am just a small operator with mostly homemade equipment, but I will try to answer as best I can. Others with more experience please feel free to correct me. I have tried to include a photo of my RO for reference.

On your first question if I am understanding it correctly: if you run the concentrate hose back into the main holding tank and run the permeate hose to a separate tank AND you keep the pressure in the system constant, you will notice the permeate flow rate slowly decrease over time as the sugar content in the main tank rises. However, the permeate flow rate will drop off slowly.

Second question: I’m not sure of the physics on that one. The higher sugar content in the concentrated sap will raise the boiling point, but it’s been my experience that water seems to leave my evaporator at a pretty constant rate until right near the end when it gets really touchy.

Third question: I think that would be ok. I’ve run 250 gallons through mine in one go before giving it a thorough cleaning. I suppose too it probably depends on the sugar content and clarity of the sap. The sap from my trees is typically pretty low in sugar content. If it’s 2% it’s a great run. 1.5% is more normal.

When you have multiple ro membranes/housings, does the permeate line from each filter separately go into the permeate drum?

Edit: found a drawing on line to answer my question.

22589

[82cabby]

Yep, the lightbulb is connected to an old thermostat. I set it to about 38 to keep the unit from freezing. The method shown several posts ago is much more modern and safer. I am going to try to convert mine.

Membranes are 150 gpd.

I use a hydrometer for measuring sugar content.

And mine is plumbed just like the diagram. The permeate from each membrane is routed out via a common line and the concentrate from one membrane feeds into the next one in line. I rotate the membranes several times a season.

It’s not a fancy setup but man does it save boiling time. I go from 1.5% to 6% in one pass through. I could probably get higher with some tweaking. My fuel consumption per gallon of finished syrup is way down from where it was before I had the RO.

[DRoseum]

Would you mind posting links to the parts you used for the heater, including the 24v power supply and controller? That is a much better system than the light bulbs I use!

Inkbird ITC-1000F 2 Stage Temperature Controller* https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07R46D44T/ref=cm_sw_r_apan_glt_fabc_NKVAX7Y204EAW2Y50G8A?_en coding=UTF8&psc=1

WeiMeet 2 Pack Aluminum Heat Sink
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08BZLC873/ref=cm_sw_r_apan_glt_fabc_W7SBGPSYX5TACZ6YS773?_en coding=UTF8&psc=1

Watlow 100w silicone strip heater (110vac)

[DRoseum]

Thank you for patience with my RO questions. I have a few more.

If I have 50 gallons of raw sap and set the needle valve so that half of the flow goes into the concentrate barrel and the other half goes into the permeate barrel, I would have 25 gallons of each in each barrel. Let’s say that took 6 hours to accomplish. Now if instead of putting the concentrate into a separate barrel, I returned it back to the original sap barrel and ran it for 12 hours, would at one point the flow on the permeate side automatically lessen because there is less water to remove?

I understand that if you have reduced the sap from 50 gallons to 25 gallons, you have 50% less fluid to boil off saving 50% of the time and fuel. Would there also be additional savings because not only there is half the volume to boil, but it is concentrated, so it should take less time to boil 25 gallons of concentrated sap versus raw sap?

If I have lots of sap and my evaporator can boil at a rate of 8 gph and I boil for 8 hours, that is 64 gallons that I can boil. To get 64 gallons of concentrated sap, I would have to run 128 gallons of raw sap through the RO. For me that means stopping the unit twice to refill the 50 gallon raw sap barrel. Would it be okay to clean the membrane at the end of the three runs?

In theory the boiling point increases and evaporation rate slightly decreases as sugar concentration increases. Not anything you will notice as others have said.

You don't need to wait to get that much concentrate to start. You just need enough for a boil. If you have your steam pans 2 inches deep, that's less than 10 gallons total of volume in your 5 pan setup. If you get 10 gph evap, you have warm up and cool down time and enough sap concentrate for a 2 or 3 hrs boil. This gives you time for filtering, bottling cleanup etc.

You will figure out your rhythm for gathering, ROing, boiling etc but for me the weather influences it. Overnight freezes make it tough to run an outdoor RO overnight, or to do it the next day. I RO, boil, filter and bottle it all everyday so I don't fall behind.

As to your question about speed... there are posts that detail this out. Your speed of concentration depends upon a multitude of factors like temperature, pump flow rate & pressure, membrane sizes, configuration, and number of membranes. Keep in mind the gdp rating of membranes is for the permeate output but in practice you will see far less than this due to temperature effects. I have seen an average of 5 gallons of water removal per hour for each 400 gpd membrane in a series setup. 400gpd membranes are faster at creating permeate and not much more $ than the smaller ones nowadays.

Also, you have to have enough flowrate across membrane surfaces in your waste/concentrate output to prevent fouling of the membranes. Its best to keep recovery rates around 15% (permeate out flowrate per membrane / input flow rate per membrane x 100).

Lastly.... on 3/16 on sugar maples ...I would suggest you plan for over 1 gallon per tap for every day the weather cooperates. You will inevitably have a couple days per year where you get double that.

If you build an RO like these, its easy to expand and add another membrane the following year. Just get the bigger pump (same price really) so you have enough flow rate to support more membranes in series.

[carusoat]

I have the same setup as 82cabby, but I have 5 membranes. I run the system typically 100 - 120 psi and process about 10 gallons of sap/ hour. It's slow, but I generally run it while I'm sleeping. I have found it runs a little faster if it's warmer. Based on 10 gal/hour and how many gallons of sap I have to run, I set up the power on the pump to a timer and let it run and stop automatically. I typically run it through twice and have had good success with 3% sap getting to 11 - 13%. I did find the quality of the membranes to matter, the dow filmtec ones were higher % than whatever cheap ones I got last year.

On timing - I boil once/week and try to run the RO once/week unless I have a lot of sap to run. Generally I try to run the RO the night before I'm planning to boil. Typically Friday night for Saturday boil. I think the biggest amount of sap I had to process was 250 gallons or so. Towards the end of the season the filter clogs up a lot more often and I have to change it frequently to keep the pressure up. The concentrate (especially at the end of the season) absolutely spoils faster than sap. I keep it in the garage so above freezing but not warm, then run it the night before so it has minimal time to go bad.

None of my ideas are new, this website has been amazing for keeping production up despite not having a properly sized evaporator for the amount of trees I tapped: https://sites.google.com/view/mattatuckmadnessmaplesyrup/homemade-reverse-osmosis?authuser=0

Cost me about $500, best thing I could have done with that money. the RO is a huge time saver.

[82cabby]

Inkbird ITC-1000F 2 Stage Temperature Controller* https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07R46D44T/ref=cm_sw_r_apan_glt_fabc_NKVAX7Y204EAW2Y50G8A?_en coding=UTF8&psc=1

WeiMeet 2 Pack Aluminum Heat Sink
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08BZLC873/ref=cm_sw_r_apan_glt_fabc_W7SBGPSYX5TACZ6YS773?_en coding=UTF8&psc=1

Watlow 100w silicone strip heater (110vac)



Thank you!

[Swingpure]

I found an inexpensive 150 GPD membrane and housing on Amazon. Is this a case of you get what you pay for and run away from it, or will this do for a couple of years?


Canadian Amazon site:
https://www.amazon.ca/Huining-Water-Reverse-Osmosis-Membrane/dp/B08PYS5XQ7/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3EOLMEU21FBRT&keywords=Huining+1812%2F2012+Water+Reverse+Osmosis +Membrane+-+50GPD+75GPD+100GPD+150GPD+Water+Filter+Replacemen t+Under+Sink+and+Reverse+Osmosis+System+%28150GPD+ kit%29&qid=1640219464&sprefix=huining+1812%2F2012+water+reverse+osmosis+ membrane+-+50gpd+75gpd+100gpd+150gpd+water+filter+replacemen t+under+sink+and+reverse+osmosis+system+150gpd+kit +%2Caps%2C166&sr=8-1

US Amazon site:
https://www.amazon.com/100GPD-1812-Connector-Residential-Household-Filtration/dp/B08PYS5XQ7/ref=sr_1_19?crid=N8P98FI96RXN&keywords=Huining+1812%2F2012+Water+Reverse+Osmosis +Membrane+-+50GPD+75GPD+100GPD+150GPD+Water+Filter+Replacemen t+Under+Sink+and+Reverse+Osmosis+System+%28150GPD+ kit%29&qid=1640220344&sprefix=huining+1812%2F2012+water+reverse+osmosis+ membrane+-+50gpd+75gpd+100gpd+150gpd+water+filter+replacemen t+under+sink+and+reverse+osmosis+system+150gpd+kit +%2Caps%2C149&sr=8-19

[DRoseum]

I'm not familiar with that brand but I've had great luck with the Membrane Solutions brand. They recently asked me to partner with them and do a video review (will be posted in Jan) and are offering 10% discounts on their products through 6/30.

Lots of people use the 150 gpd but they are much slower at removing permeate from the sap than the 400 gpd ones. With 84 taps on 3/16 you should buy a couple of 400s and the coronwater 8900 pump. If you start too small you will be upgrading next year and probably want to move to multiple 400s vs. a 150.

Partnership / discount links below.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07BT6HZNH （400 GPD RO housing）
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07BPSFLNW （150 GPD RO membrane，2 Pack）
10% off Code：ROSEUMRO102

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B071SGLF18 （400 GPD RO membrane，1 Pack）
10% off Code：ROSEUMRO10

[Swingpure]

I'm not familiar with that brand but I've had great luck with the Membrane Solutions brand. They recently asked me to partner with them and do a video review (will be posted in Jan) and are offering 10% discounts on their products through 6/30.

Lots of people use the 150 gpd but they are much slower at removing permeate from the sap than the 400 gpd ones. With 84 taps on 3/16 you should buy a couple of 400s and the coronwater 8900 pump. If you start too small you will be upgrading next year and probably want to move to multiple 400s vs. a 150.

Partnership / discount links below.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07BT6HZNH （400 GPD RO housing）
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07BPSFLNW （150 GPD RO membrane，2 Pack）
10% off Code：ROSEUMRO102

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B071SGLF18 （400 GPD RO membrane，1 Pack）
10% off Code：ROSEUMRO10

Thank you for the advice and code.

Oh to still have my house in Arizona. The cost for those in Canada are more than double the US price.

I 100% agree that the 400 gpd would be superior, but the 150’s are more affordable and are a good match for my evaporator. Likely the best case scenario for 8 hours of boiling is 60 to 80 gallons of sap, but it could be as low as 50 gallons.

A 150 gpd RO can run through 50 gallons of raw sap in 8 hrs. So if I ran 50 gallons of raw sap from 4 pm to midnight, then store that concentrate outside in the cold and then run another 50 gallons of raw sap from midnight to 8 am, that would give me 50 gallons of concentrate to boil.

Now if I get a fancy evaporator with more gph, that will mean I am divorced and I then can upgrade to 3, 400 membranes.

[Someclown]

Now if I get a fancy evaporator with more gph, that will mean I am divorced and I then can upgrade to 3, 400 membranes.

Nope, that means you only get half of what you started with. Just clowning around
But on a serious note, if you get buried in sap this spring and don't want it to spoil just give me a message, I only live 1.5 hrs.from Parry Sound and visit my mother who lives there frequently

[Swingpure]

Nope, that means you only get half of what you started with. Just clowning around
But on a serious note, if you get buried in sap this spring and don't want it to spoil just give me a message, I only live 1.5 hrs.from Parry Sound and visit my mother who lives there frequently

If I have any excess sap, I certainly will let you know, although I will work hard so there will be no excess.

You are in Prime fishing country!

It will be interesting to see when your sap flows compared to mine. I find the weather is different from Mac Tier to Parry Sound, Parry Sound to where I live, and then again to where you live.

[Swingpure]

With getting a pump for Christmas to pump out the sap from the collection barrels into the pails, it freed up some money and I am going ahead with building my DYI RO unit. It will be a budget one, but still should make a big difference. Today I ordered the Aquatec 8800 pump that is good for up to 200 gpd, I ordered two 150 gpd membranes and housings. (I likely will get a third later on) And I ordered the housing for the 5 micron filter. Over the next week, I will order the pressure gauge and the needle valve and then see if I can source the fittings and tubing locally.

The goal would be to concentrate 50 gallons of sap late afternoon and into the evening, store it outside in the cold and concentrate another 50 gallons of sap overnight. That should give me 50 gallons of sap to boil, which should take about 5 hours and hopefully give me 2.5 gallons of syrup. If I am not keeping up with the sap, I could concentrate more during the day and boil it as I am finishing up with the first 50 gallons

One RO question, when I first get it set up and flush the membranes, or when I clean the membranes by flushing, when you are done, you are left with water in the lines and the housings. When you start pumping the sap, do you just drain that water into a separate pail until you see sap come out? (Hopefully the sap looks different than water)

[Swingpure]

I learnt a new fact in watching a video from the Ontario Maple Syrup Producers Associstion, which had a number of neat tips I did not know.

https://youtu.be/S73SSgsuupI

The new fact that is relevant to “How many trees is too many”, is that for trees with two taps, I counted them that in the perfect world I would get close to 20 gallons of sap from the two taps. What Ray Bonenberg says is not to expect 200% of the sap from a two tap tree, but to expect 135%.

Of my 84 current taps, 16 of them are double taps. That would make a big difference is the amount of syrup expected. In the perfect world instead of 84 lites of syrup (not counting any bonus from 3/16 line vacuum), I should only expect about 74 lites of syrup.

[berkshires]

I learnt a new fact in watching a video from the Ontario Maple Syrup Producers Associstion, which had a number of neat tips I did not know.

https://youtu.be/S73SSgsuupI

The new fact that is relevant to “How many trees is too many”, is that for trees with two taps, I counted them that in the perfect world I would get close to 20 gallons of sap from the two taps. What Ray Bonenberg says is not to expect 200% of the sap from a two tap tree, but to expect 135%.

Of my 84 current taps, 16 of them are double taps. That would make a big difference is the amount of syrup expected. In the perfect world instead of 84 lites of syrup (not counting any bonus from 3/16 line vacuum), I should only expect about 74 lites of syrup.

I'm skeptical of this. In the graphic shown along with that claim it shows a tree that is only 18", or well under where I would put two taps in a tree. Obviously if you put two taps in a smaller tree you'll get less sap. Also, it showed a case where you've got 25" of vacuum. If you don't expect to get that much vacuum, I imagine you're going to get more than 35% increase from your second tap.

Certainly on buckets, where I don't add a second tap until the tree is at least 6' around (usually more), I see as much or more per bucket on those big old trees with two buckets as I see on a slightly smaller tree with one bucket.

GO

[Swingpure]

Also - 50 to 60 trees is going to keep you very busy on a 4 or 5 steam pan block arch. General rule of thumb is about 1 gallon per hour of evaporation per square foot of pan. Assuming excellent efficiency that might put you in the 8 - 10 gph evaporation range. On a decent run you will get 2 gallons per tap. Average day will be more like 0.5 - 1 gallon per tap. So low end would be 25 gallons per day, resulting in 4+ hr boil. On a big day, you could have 120 gallons, resulting in a 15 hr boil.

Have you considered building a small Reverse Osmosis (RO) unit to cut your boiling time and wood usage in half or even more?

Its the absolute best thing I did. It let's me tap way more trees, use way less fuel and get it done way faster. There is tons of info on this site about how to build a small scale DIY unit. They are reasonably priced when you do it yourself.

I'd be glad to give you some recommendations on this as well. I have built 2 of these. One used the biggest aquatec pump and the 2nd used the biggest coronwater pump (even high flowrate). I moved up from 36 trees to 100 when I made that change.

RO basics: https://youtu.be/s106bSrcfno
2nd unit I built: https://youtu.be/9_Eq_sq6Tp0

Dan, I just wanted to thank you for the links to your RO videos. I just rewatched them and they are very helpful. I basically designed mine after the one in your first video. Sorry I did not start off with a 400 gpd membrane, but maybe that will make next year’s budget expenditures.

The only thing I am missing is the pressure switch, but I should never run short of sap, as I will run the concentrate back into the gathering tank. Not much sap should actually be recirculated, as the pump should only be on as long as it takes to process what was initially in the gathering tank.

If I actually build a good (but small) sugar shack next year, I may redesign things.

Thanks again.

Gary

[DRoseum]

Anytime Gary! Those pumps can run dry and the pressure switch isn't really worth it in my opinion. The level sensor i used on my 2nd unit worked much better anyways. As for the 150 vs 400, no apologies needed! Just enjoy building it and if you have questions, the group here will do our best to answer them!

[DrTimPerkins]

Re: 1 vs 2 taps. Important factors are tree size and vacuum level (and somewhat taphole placement). The video ( apparently based on UVM Proctor Maple Res Ctr research since some of those figures/photos are ours) as well as how the season plays out (duration of sap runs) is an oversimplification of the issue.

On gravity, in trees 18” or above two taps may yield double one tap or slightly less.

On vacuum the yield is often less than that with the gain being a function of vacuum level. Of course higher vacuum will yield more from one tap (larger collecting volume within tree, but not exactly as shown in the video). By the time you get to 28” Hg, the added yield is very marginal for an 18” tree in most yrs, and increases as tree size increases.

Some info here. https://mapleresearch.org/pub/m0613yieldsoneortwotapholes/ note that the vacuum level wasn’t especially high in that work. We’ve completed 5 yrs of more recent work on this (3 yrs red maple, 2 yrs sugar maple) and have at least one more yr to go before finalizing the project. Stay tuned.