Help with vacuum set-up

[islandviewpeter]

Greetings. I'm thinking of installing a vacuum system. Objective is additional sap and having sap brought to sugar shack. We currently have 350 taps on gravity and haul sap with a 250g tote. We have a hydro service in the building it is a former milkhouse for a dairy farm.

Maple bush is about 900' across pasture. I would like to have releaser and vacuum pump in the building and bury line across pasture to bush. Would like to size system for 1000 taps to allow for some growth. Thinking of 11/4" dry line and 1" wet line but that is yet to be determined.

My question is how to handle coming out of ground at sugar house end? Thought is maybe getting a couple well casings and having releaser in the bottom where lines enter. Looking for suggestions. Going to add a piece to the end of the building this summer so could dig in some sort of line entry then.

Second is when we come out of the ground at the bush how do we handle the transition. We are on a limestone ridge old shoreline and loose soil depth as we enter the bush so will need to come out of the ground I think.

I will attach a screen shot from Google Earth.

[TapTapTap]

Greetings. I'm thinking of installing a vacuum system. Objective is additional sap and having sap brought to sugar shack. We currently have 350 taps on gravity and haul sap with a 250g tote. We have a hydro service in the building it is a former milkhouse for a dairy farm.

Maple bush is about 900' across pasture. I would like to have releaser and vacuum pump in the building and bury line across pasture to bush. Would like to size system for 1000 taps to allow for some growth. Thinking of 11/4" dry line and 1" wet line but that is yet to be determined.

My question is how to handle coming out of ground at sugar house end? Thought is maybe getting a couple well casings and having releaser in the bottom where lines enter. Looking for suggestions. Going to add a piece to the end of the building this summer so could dig in some sort of line entry then.

Second is when we come out of the ground at the bush how do we handle the transition. We are on a limestone ridge old shoreline and loose soil depth as we enter the bush so will need to come out of the ground I think.

I will attach a screen shot from Google Earth.


I am a civil engineer, work in heavy construction, and been involved in underground utilities and structures of all types. But I haven't done any significant buried sap lines primarily because my sugarbush is very rocky with shallow bedrock.

Despite my lack of experience with sap lines, I'd like to offer the following thoughts:

- Obviously must have overall pitch towards your outlet end. Best to have continuous downward slope - it will work much better.
- Frost protection should be considered for the entire run.
- At the outlet/inlet ends, I think it would work best to run the lines through a short section of culvert and a headwall. The headwall allows for frost protection until the lines daylight.
- Protect the lines in the exposed areas from your mower.

Ken

[GeneralStark]

If you have perfect sustained slope to the releaser in the sugarhouse you may be able to make this work well but if your map and cross section are accurate that may not be the case. You should start by figuring out what your woods layout will need for total CFM for all the mainline and tubing/taps for your ultimate number of taps. That will ultimately determine how much CFM you'll need to transfer across the pasture and what size lines to bury if you go that route.

I think it is also worth consider running power across the pasture in addition to a 1-1/4" pump line and instead of having your vacuum pump and releaser at the sugarhouse, place a vacuum pump and electric releaser at the woods and pump back to the sugarhouse from there through the buried line. Could use a mechanical releaser and a tank as well and pump from the tank but an electric release is likely cheaper and easier.

[TapTapTap]

If you have perfect sustained slope to the releaser in the sugarhouse you may be able to make this work well but if your map and cross section are accurate that may not be the case. You should start by figuring out what your woods layout will need for total CFM for all the mainline and tubing/taps for your ultimate number of taps. That will ultimately determine how much CFM you'll need to transfer across the pasture and what size lines to bury if you go that route.

I think it is also worth consider running power across the pasture in addition to a 1-1/4" pump line and instead of having your vacuum pump and releaser at the sugarhouse, place a vacuum pump and electric releaser at the woods and pump back to the sugarhouse from there through the buried line. Could use a mechanical releaser and a tank as well and pump from the tank but an electric release is likely cheaper and easier.


I'm not sure I follow your logic here General Stark. I agree with the perfect sustained slope for the pipes but I don't understand why you think it can't be achieved. Now - I am assuming that the ground slopes upward towards the woods which isn't that clear from the image. But if the ground slopes towards the sugarhouse then it's completely possible, however, it might not make economic sense, particularly if you need to trench deep in areas, encounter boulders or bedrock, or don't have the the ability to self perform the work.

I also think a remote electric releaser would likely require a transfer tank and pump with float switches in addition to a heated building for everything. Direct discharge from the releaser to the raw sap tank would require either a continuous gravity flow, or special measures to protect the pump line from freezing. Then he'll need to figure out some fairly serious power demands at 900 feet away which might require a transformer at each end.

Ken

[TapTapTap]

Greetings. I'm thinking of installing a vacuum system. Objective is additional sap and having sap brought to sugar shack. We currently have 350 taps on gravity and haul sap with a 250g tote. We have a hydro service in the building it is a former milkhouse for a dairy farm.

Maple bush is about 900' across pasture. I would like to have releaser and vacuum pump in the building and bury line across pasture to bush. Would like to size system for 1000 taps to allow for some growth. Thinking of 11/4" dry line and 1" wet line but that is yet to be determined.

My question is how to handle coming out of ground at sugar house end? Thought is maybe getting a couple well casings and having releaser in the bottom where lines enter. Looking for suggestions. Going to add a piece to the end of the building this summer so could dig in some sort of line entry then.

Second is when we come out of the ground at the bush how do we handle the transition. We are on a limestone ridge old shoreline and loose soil depth as we enter the bush so will need to come out of the ground I think.

I will attach a screen shot from Google Earth.

Sorry - it looks like I missed the second part of the question about the outlet end at the sugarhouse. I like your idea of well casings which is similar to my system. I have a 60" diameter culvert standing up out the ground. The key is that your releaser wet/dry line intake needs to be on that continuous slope line from the upper woods for best performance. Therefore it could be pretty deep at the sugarhouse. Then you need to use the releaser pump to lift it up to your raw sap tank without freezing.

22367

22368

[GeneralStark]

I'm not sure I follow your logic here General Stark. I agree with the perfect sustained slope for the pipes but I don't understand why you think it can't be achieved.

Ken

The concept of having a releaser below grade in a well casing at the sugarhouse could work if a downward sustained slope can be achieved from the woods to the releaser. The cross section shown with the included map suggests that may not be the case and it is difficult to determine from the information provided what may be the actual situation. The OP mentions burying the lines through the pasture so maintaining a downhill slope to the releaser underground would be a challenge if the slope is not consistently downhill. And then there is the fact that the releaser would need to be below grade ... How deep do you really want to have to dig? And how are you going to pump the sap out of the well casing?

If the OP wants to provide more detailed info. then perhaps we can provide some more detailed "logic" but until then it's all just throwing ideas out there...

Running power 900' is certainly not prohibitive for a vac. pump and a releaser, especially if you are considering burying pipe at a consistent slope and may require several runs of large diameter pipe. Plenty of folks run power long distances as it can be cheaper than pipe...

[TapTapTap]

So here's some more information on how to make the sugarhouse side work with the "well casing" concept. This photo shows how I'm configured with my "culvert" pumphouse (barely visible on the far right). Notice the black lines coming out near the top. The tight one is the pump out line to the raw sap tank. The other is vacuum from the pump in the orange conex box. The raw sap tank is under the lean-to roof behind the sugarhouse.

22369

Here's some details:

- The idea is for it to be heated to above freezing on the colder days to prevent a freezing problem. This is the first year and I didn't get it weathertight yet.
- The pump out line from the releaser runs up to the top of the heated structure and turns with a 90 at the top. From within the structure it pitches downward to the rap sap tank.
- The culvert section is a 20 footer with about 8 ft in the ground and the lines come in about 3 ft above the bottom (I have a vertical releaser). The ground slopes down and way from the backside of my sugarhouse so my excavation was minimal and the lines come in above grade at the lower area.

I think a big issue with a "well casing" is to have a diameter sufficient to access. I wouldn't want less than my 60" diameter.

I hope this is helpful.


Ken

[TapTapTap]

The concept of having a releaser below grade in a well casing at the sugarhouse could work if a downward sustained slope can be achieved from the woods to the releaser. The cross section shown with the included map suggests that may not be the case and it is difficult to determine from the information provided what may be the actual situation. The OP mentions burying the lines through the pasture so maintaining a downhill slope to the releaser underground would be a challenge if the slope is not consistently downhill. And then there is the fact that the releaser would need to be below grade ... How deep do you really want to have to dig? And how are you going to pump the sap out of the well casing?

If the OP wants to provide more detailed info. then perhaps we can provide some more detailed "logic" but until then it's all just throwing ideas out there...

Running power 900' is certainly not prohibitive for a vac. pump and a releaser, especially if you are considering burying pipe at a consistent slope and may require several runs of large diameter pipe. Plenty of folks run power long distances as it can be cheaper than pipe...

I'm still confused by your statement that a consistent downward slope is so challenging. Again - I'm assuming that the ground is sloped downward towards the sugarhouse, otherwise it is extremely challenging and beyond practical. However, if the profile shown is downward towards the sugarhouse with enough overall elevation drop then it should be very possible. And I'm typically very skeptical of underground for sap line for reasons I posted earlier. I also think that holding a constant downward pitch on sap lines on a shallow slope is very challenging even above ground so buried lines is no simple task and you don't get another chance to adjust them.

I'd also recommend that the OP survey the proposed alignment as a next step. From that information they can decide whether underground is a practical solution. If its available, I'd be looking for about at least 5% average slope for the lines to make it easier to install. Then they'd have a little flexibility to go shallower in areas where the depth becomes challenging.

Ken

[islandviewpeter]

Thanks for the input so far. There is 20' of fall from top corner of pasture to Syrup House. So 2.2% slope, but there are dips and humps as you cross the field so the necessity to plan a route that would avoid high spots and miss low spots. All the land slopes to the lake, but we would be crossing the slope on an angle.

[GeneralStark]

Again - I'm assuming that the ground is sloped downward towards the sugarhouse, otherwise it is extremely challenging and beyond practical.

Ken

That's my question... Can it be assumed that the OP can achieve a consistent downward slope all the way from the woods to the releaser at the sugarhouse. I don't know ... The cross section attached to the map is difficult to read and there does appear to be a portion of the distance that is not sloping downward to the sugarhouse.

As you mention, and I agree, it would be practically difficult to maintain consistent slope with buried lines in a trench if the slope the OP is traversing is not consistently down hill.

I personally would want to bury a wet line, a dry line, and at least one backup line if the slope was consistent and were easy to do the excavation work at the sugarhouse. For that distance and the possibility of 1k taps in the woods that would likely necessitate some larger diameter pipe in the 1-1@1/2 range. The cost of the pipe that would be appropriate to bury may well exceed the cost of wire and one pump out line.

Just throwing out ideas here...

[ennismaple]

Peter,

The producers near us that have underground mainlines have been able to do it because they have a lot of sand and gravel and can get below frost line. We are unable to do it because of rock. If you have shallow limestone you're looking at ripping (or blasting rock) to get deep enough. If you have to install the mainline in the overburden where it will be subject to freezing temperatures and even if you maintain good slope on the buried mainlines there are situations where the ice will build up in the mains over time and eventually block your flow of sap.

In my mind, the options you have, in order of preference, are:
1. Install an electric releaser at or near your sugar camp and run above ground wet/dry system back to the woods. No tank required in the woods.
2. Install an electric releaser at the woods, which will require electricity and a heated enclosure. The electric releaser pumps back to the sugar camp above ground and also does not require a tank in the woods.
3. Have vacuum pump at the sugar camp and run a vacuum line (1.5"?) back to your woods to a mechanical releaser. The vacuum line could be underground if you have a good moisture trap in the woods. The mechanical releaser will require a tank in the woods. You can either gather the sap from the woods using a tractor/truck & wagon or you can pump back to the sugar camp using a generator and Gould pump.

Of course how you use the land will somewhat drive your decision making. In some sections of our woods we needed to keep trails and roads open so where we located our mainlines was dictated by that. We installed a sap ladder over the main road in one location to get 100 taps from one side to the other.

Enjoy planning your work - to me this is the fun part!

[islandviewpeter]

If I were to identify my main objective it would be to have sap delivered to my evaporator without having to physically go collect.

I am also planning to rebuild fence on upper edge of pasture. This may provide an option for above ground lines utilizing the fence as supports.

I don't want above ground lines crossing the field making something else to work around rest of the year. This option would likely require some temporary lines put in place for season and then removed.

[TapTapTap]

2. Install an electric releaser at the woods, which will require electricity and a heated enclosure. The electric releaser pumps back to the sugar camp above ground and also does not require a tank in the woods.


I don't totally agree with no tank in the woods for option #2. That works best only if the potential for freezing is eliminated on the pumpline. The electric releaser is check valved so once the pump shuts off, the sap in that line goes where gravity pulls it. Therefore, it would need to run on a continuous downward pitch right up to the discharge into the raw sap tank at the sugarhouse to work properly. If there are any sags in the pumpline then the sap can freeze. Therefore, the proper way to set up this option is typically with a small transfer tank and pump on float or conductivity probe switch. At that point you're talking about a bigger space, more power, and more things to check on daily.

Ken

[GeneralStark]

I don't totally agree with no tank in the woods for option #2. That works best only if the potential for freezing is eliminated on the pumpline.

Ken

He could bury the pipeline below frost line from the woods to the sugarhouse if possible... Or if set up aerial he could use black pipe and slope it well right to the sugarhouse. Don't use any connectors or fittings as that would eliminate restrictions. Could also run a second line in case the first freezes...

[TapTapTap]

He could bury the pipeline below frost line from the woods to the sugarhouse if possible... Or if set up aerial he could use black pipe and slope it well right to the sugarhouse. Don't use any connectors or fittings as that would eliminate restrictions. Could also run a second line in case the first freezes...

My point is that an underground line up to the raw sap tank needs to come up and into the raw sap tank. So the 8 or so feet of vertical riser pipe will remain full including the distance back underground to that same elevation.

[bill m]

The concept of having a releaser below grade in a well casing at the sugarhouse could work if a downward sustained slope can be achieved from the woods to the releaser. The cross section shown with the included map suggests that may not be the case and it is difficult to determine from the information provided what may be the actual situation. The OP mentions burying the lines through the pasture so maintaining a downhill slope to the releaser underground would be a challenge if the slope is not consistently downhill. And then there is the fact that the releaser would need to be below grade ... How deep do you really want to have to dig? And how are you going to pump the sap out of the well casing?

If the OP wants to provide more detailed info. then perhaps we can provide some more detailed "logic" but until then it's all just throwing ideas out there...

Running power 900' is certainly not prohibitive for a vac. pump and a releaser, especially if you are considering burying pipe at a consistent slope and may require several runs of large diameter pipe. Plenty of folks run power long distances as it can be cheaper than pipe...Where do you get your information that power cable is cheaper than pipe? To run power 900 feet you will be looking at 3 to 4 dollars a foot for direct burial wire. 2 or even 3 inch pipe will be less than $2.00 a foot

[GeneralStark]

Where do you get your information that power cable is cheaper than pipe? To run power 900 feet you will be looking at 3 to 4 dollars a foot for direct burial wire. 2 or even 3 inch pipe will be less than $2.00 a foot

Where are you getting your prices for wire? Here is direct burial aluminum 1/0 for $1.25/ft https://www.nassaunationalcable.com/products/1-0-triplex

2-2-2 would probably even be adequate for a vac pump and submersible on VFDs (240V @ 13 amps) That's $1.00/ft. https://www.nassaunationalcable.com/products/2-r-triplex

One run of that for 900' and one run of 1" for a pump line would be less than two runs of pipe sized appropriately for a wet and dry line 900'.

[TapTapTap]

I'm no electrician and I tend to be conservative on sizing things. But I would be adding at least a few extra amps (outlet, lighting, video cameras, heating, etc), sizing the wire to be at only 80% max capacity, and making sure that the voltage drop is minimal since you're talking about expensive equipment. The outcome would likely be in the $3 per foot, or more. I would think that a commercial licensed electrician would apply similar logic to sizing the wire. Would it work with the lighter grade wire? Maybe. But is it worth the risk - One burnt up motor and disrupted production might convince you otherwise.

[bill m]

For 240 volts triplex wire can not be used, according to code. It must be quadruplex.

[GeneralStark]

Once again, just throwing out ideas here... Re reading my last post I can see where there may be some confusion so let me start over.

It would be perfectly adequate to run 3 wire 2-2-2 aluminum conductor to power an electric releaser. That's 240 @10 amps with 3% voltage drop or less at over 1200 ft. 240V @13 amps would decrease the distance to 943 ft. That conductor could cost $1.00/ft. from the source I provided.

If you want to power a vac. pump + releaser (on vfds), lights, and perhaps a small heater then yes 4 wire would be ideal to then run a multi-breaker panel at this theoretical pumphouse. Let's say 240V @30 amps. 3/0 4-wire which gets to 886 ft. and that's $2.70/ft. At 240V @ 20 amps (ditch the electric heater) we're down to $2.19/ft for 2/0 4-wire and that is at 1106 ft. At 240 V @15 amps 1/0 4-wire will get 1152 ft. and costs $1.72/ft.

It is possible and probably even code compliant (don't know about Canada) to do a 3-wire run to the pump house for only 240V devices (Vac Pump + Releaser on VFDs). So then back to 3-wire 1/0 240V @15 amps at $1.25/ft. for up to 1152 ft.

Am I saying that the OP should go any of these route? No...once again he came looking for ideas and I'm just putting them out there. Plenty of people are safely running pump stations a variety of ways.

Ken, what would you consider appropriate pipe for burial in this application? Anyone have any pricing for aerial or burial pipe?

[wiam]

Bought this pump https://www.supremewatersales.com/10sq05-160-96160140.html last year on advice from someone using one. It is a slow start pump also has auto shut down for low water. Specs for it show it will run on up about 1700’ of 10 gauge wire. I plowed in about 1600’ of 10-2 direct bury. I have an amp meter at the releaser building. On start up and running I never saw this pump pull over 3.7 amps. Voltage drop from 240 to 228 when running. I set up a relay to turn electric heater in building off when pump was running. The releaser pumped 1600’ underground in 1” pipe back to sugarhouse. Price on webpage is not correct. Click button for pricing. About $600. This has 950 taps on it. I have a Lapierre single vertical for a moister trap. There were only 2 times that pump could not keep up on start up and the manual releaser dumped once each time. This system worked very well for me.

[TapTapTap]

m out there. Plenty of people are safely running pump stations a variety of ways.

Ken, what would you consider appropriate pipe for burial in this application? Anyone have any pricing for aerial or burial pipe?


Ha!

That's an excellent question, particularly for shallow slopes.

HDPE Coil Pipe: I normally think HDPE but what a pain it would be to keep coiled pipe straight on line and grade. I think you'd be best to set up with some way of tensioning the pipe while you backfill.

HDPE stick Pipe - Would eliminate the coil pipe issues but probably not a good solution because it would require electrofusion couplings ($$), or butt-fusion welds which will cause an internal lip on the pipe which is even a bigger problem for shallow slopes. There are de-burring trim tools but I don't think for small diameter pipes.

PVC - I don't like due the potential for a break due to frost heaving or freeze/break. You could have a crack and loose sap without every knowing.

Metal pipe - Is out due to cost. Although buried cement-lined ductile iron sap lines would likely be a first!

So we're back to coiled HDPE. At least you can get a 900 ft roll (no joints) but probably not at your local hardware store. And, I'd recommend a heavier wall (higher pressure rating) potable water pipe.

And - definitely use a sand bedding and backfill for at least 6 inches all around. For compaction, I'd use water jettting so that the sand gets saturated and works its way all around the pipe. Hopefully that will maintain the grade forever. Then it's smart to put a marking tape on top of the sand bedding and a tracer wire for future locating.


Ken

[TapTapTap]

Bought this pump https://www.supremewatersales.com/10sq05-160-96160140.html last year on advice from someone using one. It is a slow start pump also has auto shut down for low water. Specs for it show it will run on up about 1700’ of 10 gauge wire. I plowed in about 1600’ of 10-2 direct bury. I have an amp meter at the releaser building. On start up and running I never saw this pump pull over 3.7 amps. Voltage drop from 240 to 228 when running. I set up a relay to turn electric heater in building off when pump was running. The releaser pumped 1600’ underground in 1” pipe back to sugarhouse. Price on webpage is not correct. Click button for pricing. About $600. This has 950 taps on it. I have a Lapierre single vertical for a moister trap. There were only 2 times that pump could not keep up on start up and the manual releaser dumped once each time. This system worked very well for me.

My water well is over 600 feet deep and with a total wire length of probably closer to 700 ft. I'm sure they just put a standard 10 gauge in it. So I agree - we shouldn't get too worked up with long wires so long as the pump is made for it. But putting a couple of pumps and a 3 hp vacuum pump on a single wire is a different game altogether.

Ken

[islandviewpeter]

Lots of interesting ideas. I will need to talk to my electrician.
Had never considered the coiling action of the pipe and having to deal with that.
Other considerations could be solar and use of diaphragm pumps for some vacuum and pumping.
More research and thought required.