single post 4" build

[tombaisley]

I would like to put together a single 4" RO to handle 400-500 taps. I am limited to 110 volts in my sap house. I 'm hoping to be able to process aprox 75 gallons of sap per hour. What kind of performance could I expect with a 3/4 hp motor and procon pump? I am looking at these items

https://www.freshwatersystems.com/products/procon-pump-nsf-stainless-steel-w-1143-bronze-coupling-240-gph-1-2-npt?variant=13250148958251

and

https://www.freshwatersystems.com/products/marathon-872-nema-48yz-frame-ro-carbonator-motor-3-4-hp-115-230v?variant=13250150957099

thanks
Tom

[Ghs57]

I've been running a 1-4x40 for 3 years with nearly the same set up. My first recommendation is to go with 2-4x40s at a minimum. You might even want to look at a commercial unit. 1 is too slow for my 175 taps, so I can't imagine how it would be with 500 (unless you really enjoy boiling). Second, get the biggest Procon (Series 5 330gph or Series 6, or some other brand such as Guold) so you have the pressure (Procons look to be limited to 250psi) to concentrate to a higher level per pass. You may even need a booster pump with 2 or more membranes. I'm currently in the process of adding a second 4x40 membrane (Dow Filmtec XLE), a booster pump, low-pressure shut off, flow meters, decent needle valve, and electronic pump start/stop switch (in sequence - booster than Procon 265 on start-up).

This season, for what is was, I would run the RO for many hours to concentrate to somewhere near 8% a 275 gal IBC tote full of 1.2-1.4% sap. Sometimes it wouldn't even get close to that when I wanted to start boiling (so I wouldn't be up all night). Also, Procons are very sensitive. You can't let it run dry for even a minute, or allow your intake to suck air, else pump failure may be in your very near future (voice of experience here, but the pumps can be rebuilt).

It seems to me, excess RO capacity is way better than not enough, so don't cut it short to save a few bucks. Or you can be like me and pay more for it later.

EDIT: BTW, Wateranywhere and Freshwatersystems are good sources for components.

[Bellehollow]

I concur with Gary on this one. We had 225 taps last year on a single 4x40 membrane and increased tap count to 325 this year while adding a 2nd 4x40 membrane.

We had to run multiple passes last year on a single membrane to get up to 8% from 1.6-2% sap. Our current evaporator boils off around 20-25 GPH so we often had to start our RO several hours prior to stay ahead. This year we added the 2nd membrane and were able to take similar range raw sap to 7.2-8% concentrate on a single pass at around 100-105 GPH total (1.25-1.3 gpm permeate and .45-.5 gpm concentrate). Pressure range 225 to 245 PSI with re-circulation loop. The RO and Evaporator work at a very close rate - so we can run them simultaneously now ( until we change everything again next year with upgrades, the addiction is real!! )

Our machine has a .5 HP shallow well feed pump and a procon 240 with a .75 HP motor. Last year I had all wired for 120 and it worked, but rewired for 240 this year just to lower amp draws. I also used flow meters, re-circ loop with needle valves and a low pressure cut-off.

All else being similar, we also produced way lighter syrup this year than previous years. I realize some of this is just what the trees give you, but I am also attributing some of this to only having to run sap through the RO once and right into the pans.

[Ghs57]

I concur with Gary on this one. We had 225 taps last year on a single 4x40 membrane and increased tap count to 325 this year while adding a 2nd 4x40 membrane.

We had to run multiple passes last year on a single membrane to get up to 8% from 1.6-2% sap. Our current evaporator boils off around 20-25 GPH so we often had to start our RO several hours prior to stay ahead. This year we added the 2nd membrane and were able to take similar range raw sap to 7.2-8% concentrate on a single pass at around 100-105 GPH total (1.25-1.3 gpm permeate and .45-.5 gpm concentrate). Pressure range 225 to 245 PSI with re-circulation loop. The RO and Evaporator work at a very close rate - so we can run them simultaneously now ( until we change everything again next year with upgrades, the addiction is real!! )

Our machine has a .5 HP shallow well feed pump and a procon 240 with a .75 HP motor. Last year I had all wired for 120 and it worked, but rewired for 240 this year just to lower amp draws. I also used flow meters, re-circ loop with needle valves and a low pressure cut-off.

All else being similar, we also produced way lighter syrup this year than previous years. I realize some of this is just what the trees give you, but I am also attributing some of this to only having to run sap through the RO once and right into the pans.

Belle,

Very interesting that you rewired to 240v. I've been thinking about doing the same thing with my rebuild. Also, what is your feed pump? I haven't bought one yet. And finally, what are you using for a low pressure shut off? I'm looking at several options here. (This may help Tom too)

I also made lighter syrup this year, but I'm on a new arch (way more efficient) so boiling time was cut down significantly, whereas RO concentration remained about the same as prior years.

[tombaisley]

Not sure what to use for a low pressure cut off switch,
I'm looking at this pump
https://www.freshwatersystems.com/products/fluid-o-tech-stainless-steel-rotary-vane-pump-320-gph-1-2-npt?variant=13250707324971

If I have a low pressure cut off switch, I would not be afraid to use a cheap feed pump from amazon
https://www.amazon.com/Shallow-Lanchez-Stainless-Transfer-Irrigation/dp/B07WRFPD56/ref=pd_di_sccai_3?pd_rd_w=p3uXK&pf_rd_p=c9443270-b914-4430-a90b-72e3e7e784e0&pf_rd_r=TZ6CBFNB84G481DBFVXX&pd_rd_r=94e34f9e-8ff5-4112-b27a-f928d1cf92e4&pd_rd_wg=fOlUM&pd_rd_i=B07WRFPD56&psc=1

[Ghs57]

Not sure what to use for a low pressure cut off switch,
I'm looking at this pump
https://www.freshwatersystems.com/products/fluid-o-tech-stainless-steel-rotary-vane-pump-320-gph-1-2-npt?variant=13250707324971

If I have a low pressure cut off switch, I would not be afraid to use a cheap feed pump from amazon
https://www.amazon.com/Shallow-Lanchez-Stainless-Transfer-Irrigation/dp/B07WRFPD56/ref=pd_di_sccai_3?pd_rd_w=p3uXK&pf_rd_p=c9443270-b914-4430-a90b-72e3e7e784e0&pf_rd_r=TZ6CBFNB84G481DBFVXX&pd_rd_r=94e34f9e-8ff5-4112-b27a-f928d1cf92e4&pd_rd_wg=fOlUM&pd_rd_i=B07WRFPD56&psc=1


Pump looks good. I'm looking at this low pressure shut off (recommended by another Mapletrader in another tread):

https://www.dwyer-inst.com/Products/Product.cfm?Group_ID=20043#features

Not sure about the booster pump yet. I want to wire it 240v, so have to check specs. I'm also waiting for my second SS 4x40 housing - it's on backorder from Wateranywhere.com. And I'm still shopping for electrical components and misc parts.

[Bellehollow]

Yes - that is the same pressure switch that I ordered. You can order with or without the waterproof housing. It added a little bit to the cost ( maybe $40 ) but Im not 100% on that.

I do not recall the brand of pump we are using for a feed pump - however it is a 1/2 HP shallow well cast pump. You can also go with a SS sprinkler pump. Just either bypass the pressure switch on the pump or adjust it so the pump is always running. You dont want it to cycle.

I have attached a few pics of our build - not great but what I had. 22354223562235722358

[Pdiamond]

BelleHollow, How old is the young man you have helping you in the third and fourth pictures, He certainly takes his job seriously. I was very impressed by the photos.

[Bellehollow]

BelleHollow, How old is the young man you have helping you in the third and fourth pictures, He certainly takes his job seriously. I was very impressed by the photos.

Those are my boys...the one adjusting the r/o is 8...he loves the science behind the syrup..he will measure bryx and color transmittance all day if he could...

Yea, we have tweaked the r/o a few times over the last few years to get it where we want it. Works great for us. We are expanding so depending on how many taps we add next year, may get one more year out of her. Probably won't go over 500 taps using that r/o. I have a 5 hp goulds ss multistage pump waiting for the new build!!

I will be down at the sugar shack next week to finish cleaning up and acid wash the membranes before putting them away. I can get better pictures for you guys then!

[Ghs57]

Yes - that is the same pressure switch that I ordered. You can order with or without the waterproof housing. It added a little bit to the cost ( maybe $40 ) but Im not 100% on that.

I do not recall the brand of pump we are using for a feed pump - however it is a 1/2 HP shallow well cast pump. You can also go with a SS sprinkler pump. Just either bypass the pressure switch on the pump or adjust it so the pump is always running. You dont want it to cycle.

I have attached a few pics of our build - not great but what I had. 22354223562235722358

Very nice. Questions: I see you have two needle valves, but I can't read the labels. My unit is pretty simple, so I'm interested in how you designed the flow (and if you have a diagram). I also like the SS filter housing - which one is it? (I have had trouble with an air leak in my plastic filter housing) I'm waiting for parts, but hope to have pictures sometime soon.