tube cleaning

[tubetamer]

Looking down the road 2 to 3 weeks and the chore of cleaning the tubing. What solution(s) are used for this purpose? Are there any relatively inexpensive commercial chemicals readily available for this purpose or do you make up your own potions? Please reply and am thanking you all in advance for your input.

[Brian]

clean water works great. I use a tee, feed water up the main line with air from an air compressor pushing.

[Salmoneye]

I have a 'pool pump' and I plan on using 40:1 water/bleach mix and pumping uphill till all the taps flow freely...Then the taps will all be placed on their T's (plug spike type) and then the mainline will be rolled onto a large spool and capped...Next year latch onto the mainline spool with the tractor and drag/unroll and hang...

Old pool pump cost me $10 at a lawn sale last year...It is large enough for a 30,000 gallon inground so it should easily handle a tub of water and bleach uphill...

[syrupmaker]

Salmoneye...Let me know how the pool pump works out. I have a couple kicking around that could easily be plumbed for the task. I didn't think they would develop enough preassure to push the hill though.Usually drag the preasure washer and compressor with us and tank it too her to complete the task.

Rick

[themapleking]

I have valves in stalled into the mainlines 6 total. 6 differant mailines running into one. Close the valves hook the hose to the top end of the mainline than pump in the 5% clorine and water mix.
Leave the last end spout open one every latural line. Start at the mainline do each spout till clean water comes out close it go to the next. Till you get to the end spout close it. Continue each lat line that way till I'm done. Than I'll do each mainline section that way. A few people to help real helps speed this up. When I'm all done and have all spouts plugged, I'll open all the valves turn on the vacuum pump and drain it out.
Than you can do it all over again with clean water. The water and clorine mix kills the bacteria were plain water doesn't.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

I always used 5% chlorine mix in my water also because it will kill the bacteria and water doesn't. I don't have any pump to pressure out the lines, so just try to gravity flow them as best as possible.

After I take my lines down, I then immerse them for a few minutes in a big tank of 5% chlorine water to help kill the bacteria on the spouts also.

[FarmerJohn]

I find all of your methods very interesting, but they seem like a lot of work. Our lines stay up year round, so we use the vacuum system in place to draw the bleach solution through the tap and back to the receiver.
My daughter and I walk through the woods with jugs of bleach soln and of clean water. I pull the tap and let the vacuum pull the bleach from a cup. She follows with plain water to rinse the tap and then closes the tap. We've found that if you don't rinse, the squirrels will chew the taps and lines, which is no fun.
This method has worked very well for us and we don't put all that salty bleach water into the woods. Our lines have been up since 1988.

4 x 12 Small Bros

550 taps on Vacuum, DeLaval 73

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Sounds like a great idea to me but I don't have any vaccum and probably never will, so I guess I will have to do different things to clean mine. :(

[mapleman3]

I like that idea... that way your cleaning your releaser also, and a pump if it's an electric like mine

[saphead]

The question of how to clean pipeline was brought up a Glen's seminar yesterday and he mentioned the results of actual testing that was done,I don't remember where,Parker do you remember? Three methods where used; the recomended mild chlorine bleach solution,some brand name product I don't remember and water with compressed air. The results even surprised Glen, water and air did the best job of cleaning and removing bacteria! Glen's system uses 80 psi H2O and I thick around 115 psi air the result is a very good scrubbing action. Roughly 3 parts air to 1 part H2O.

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[mapleman3]

Jeremy, do you know how long it is from your garden hose shutoff to your bush? and what your house water psi is? I'm on a well and I'd have to run 250 ft of hose to get to it, so my pressure will drop off.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

When running this air and water setup like each of you have been discussing, do you have problems with the pressure blowing the 5/16 soft caps off of the mainline junctions??

Also, how do you flush the lateral lines?? Do you start at the farthest away tap and work back?? Does the pressure and pumps push the water and air all the way to the last tap on a lateral line?? Any an all explanations would be appreicated for someone dumb like me. :oops: :oops: :oops:

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Kevin,

Thanks for the help and I will give Jim a call and get him to send me a copy of it. :D :D

[saphead]

I was just wondering if anyone out there with a vacuum system has ,after cleaning, left thier system under a slight vacuum to theoretically eliminate the air which is required for micro- organism growth. Just a thought.

[mapleman3]

I don't think the vacuum would last more than an hour, theres no way to seal it off tight enough to hold a vacuum, thats why you have to continue to run a vac during sappin

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

I don't know much when it comes to syruping, but one thing I have found out over the years is that you can't use too much clorox. When I tap, I spray the spout and the taphole both with at least one squirt of 1 part clorox to 4 parts of water. During the season, I try to use it to wash out tanks with or just take a small spray bottle and mist the inside of the tanks with it to keep down bacteria.

Years ago I had some sap with a high bacteria count and it was getting warm. I added some pure clorox to the sap and then cook it down the next day and the syrup was great. I would not recommend anyone to do this and I wouldn't do it again, but I have never found clorox to any way impact syrup flavor.

It is in nearly all drinking water and it doesn't affect the taste of cooked items because it cooks out. Same thing with syrup is that I have always found it boils out in steam.

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[ontarioguy]

hi all,

I used to have a large aquarium when i lived in the city. to get the chlorine out of the water (it is really bad for fish) you just fill a bucket and let it sit overnight. It will evaporate by itself, it evaporates at a higher rate than water. (this is why when you own a pool you have to put chlorine in there throughout the summer because it evaporates out)

i am not sure if this helps but it is my two cents.

Mark


PS i am working on plans to build my 2x6 evaporator.... :-) you can't start too soon.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Mark,

Let us know how building the evaporator goes and we would all love to see pics when it is finished!

Good luck! :D

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

I guess then boiling clorine would make it evaporate even faster and that is why it isn't tasted in syrup. :?

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[mapleman3]

Some interesting facts for sure... oh and hey Kevin and Brandon, I havn't forgot you both, I will send out the tapes to you tomorrow if all goes well, it was the week from hell this past week, so hopefully I'll get to the post office in the morn :) thanks guys :)

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Kevin,

Got the video today and a ton of thanks for taking all the time to make it. I watched it all, all 50+ minutes and it was awesome work.

Thanks for taking the time to make it up and I will have to settle up with mapleman3 later as I already owe him a ton. :oops: Let's see, 4 months rent on his one handed tubing tool and who knows what kinda monthly rate that will be, shipping expense to ship it down here, a new VHS tape, time to record tape, and shipping expense to ship it down here. By the time you figure in interest, it would have to be several hundred dollars. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[mapleman3]

yep Brandon but you'll have to come here in person this time :wink: that'll be all the $$ we need, we would rather have a visit with you and the family :) :) than $$

PS Kevin did a great job on the tape, I learned alot and will use his methods this fall

Thanks again Kevin!!

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[mapleman3]

I will start figuring mine out but it will be on a trailer with water tank(275 gal) generator, compressor and pump... but wont be untill mid fall, and it wont be a permanent thing, I will have to build it each time I clean tubing, no big deal. :wink:

will be fun tho, tryin to catch the cobra :lol: :lol:

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Kevin,

I noticed when you were washing your tubing, you were pulling the taps out of the tree with your hand. My spouts are always really hard to pull out and require a hammer or spout remover. I always drive mine into the tree with a hammer, but I don't split the bark. Do you have a problem with them leaking and how do you seat your spouts??

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[mapleman3]

Kevin, I was with Joe this weekend at his sugarhouse and he told me he bought it off you... too funny could have brought it for sure!!

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

I have several tanks out and most of the tanks have 50 to 70 taps running into them on 1/2" lines. It works great for me as I only have 1 group over 70 taps and it has 92 on it. I can get a roll of 1/2" for around $ 5.50 per 100' and it is easier to work with and a lot lighter. I guess it is a matter of preference, but I don't use vaccuum and don't ever intend to as my taps are scattered around in about 5 or 6 different sections/areas.

100 taps running at their peak would maybe fill a 1/2" line half full and I have never seen that, so I guess I will always stick to that for my gravity taps. :D :D

[WF MASON]

I remember hearing at a seminar some where , it might of been Glen Goodrich ,But I'm really not sure where I heard it or the reasoning behind it, but if you switch from 1/2'' main line to 3/4'', you'll double your flow of sap! Maybe inside diameter or something.,

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Bill,

I think that is true but would apply to someone having at least 200 to 300 taps or more and running vaccum. With my size operation and gravity flow and small number of taps per line, I could get the largest line available and still wouldn't get an ounce more sap. :?

[mapleman3]

Actually Goodrich did say that at any amount you should use at least 3/4, I have 1/2 " and I will use it 1 more year and get the full season on Vac. then next year I will go to 3/4 and see if there is a diff. I may run another main out and see if I can split up my main so my 5/16ths lines aren't so long and not so many taps on them.. I know I am over the amount of taps per latteral(some have 15-18 instead of 5-10max) but that will be fixed next year.

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Kevin,

I totally agree with you and am all for vaccum, but it is not feasible for me. All of my taps are away from my sugarhouse and I don't have any power to the areas and it is not wise to set up a gas system for 60 or 70 taps. I also live about 30 minutes from my syrup operation and during the season sometimes I don't go there for 2 or 3 days at a time and it is not very smart to leave vaccum for that length of time without checking it.

Maybe Glenn says not to use 1/2" for his own reasons and I respect his opinion a lot, but I don't think he knows everything. No one in there right might could justify using 3/4" line over 1/2" line for 60 to 70 gravity taps. :?

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Kevin,

As far as the IPL saddles, I have never used them. I went to the 4 way screw in fittings this year and I like them, but not for the price. I like the blue Lamb 4 way fittings the best since I use the Leader connectors with hooks and hook the connector to the mainline wire so the fitting has not pull or pressure on it at all. :D

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[brookledge]

Another chemical that more and more people are using is calcium hyper-cloride. Bleach is sodium hyper-cloride and the sodium is what attracts the squirrels and other animals. I just began using it this spring so I'll know if it helps against roddents. You can get calcium hyper-cloride from a pool supply store

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

I am definitely interested in this calcium hyper-chloride. Does anyone else use it and what are the results??

Does it come in granule or power form or is it available in liquid?? If it is in powder, I would think it would leave some residue.

As for this arguement about washing lines, I am by know means anywhere close to an expert, but I don't think you could even come close to reducing the bacteria as much by only using water. It might look clean just after flushing at the end of the season, but give it a few months. :x

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[brookledge]

I agree i'm not going to wash my lines 4 times during the season. Some times research results is not practical
Keith

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

My dealer told me that Glenn buys 1200 rolls of 30p tubing every year, so he must replace a lot of lines frequently or he buys such big quanity he is getting a good discount and reselling it. :?

[Brian]

Brandon, Glenn installs vacuum systems as far south as PA.state. He had a big job in Quebec Canada last year as a coordinator. Glenn has been installing the two line system wet, dry line system since the 1980's. Glenn has done afew in New York also.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Brian,

I forgot that Glenn did a lot of tubing installations, so I should have figured that is what he used the tubing for. From what I hear, he seems to love the 30p.

I bought nine rolls of Beaver River from Maple guys this spring and I needed a little more to finish up all my taps and I bought a couple of rolls of the 30P. Time will tell I guess which is the best, but I could see real quick why everyone likes the 30p. It is a ton easier to work with than the Beaver River and seemed like it would be easier to work with than about any other rigid. I was not impressed with it as I don't think it is near the quality of the Beaver River and sags a ton worse upon install.

I will know best in a couple of years! :?

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[themapleking]

Hay Kevin,
The washer worked out good. Cleaned a 700+ tap bush with about 5+ miles of lines with less than 300 gal of water. More like 225 gals.
I need to put a smaller pulley on the compressor. to keep the air psi up. But I was still happy with it. It even pushed out to the far section farely good. A little more than 1500 ft main line and over 200 ft elevation.
Even had some white crap come out of a few taps. I'm replacing a lot off my drops now ( too short- worn out )
I'm going to install a filter press pump that I have laying around like you did. I was using a gas pump -1"- to feed the washer. I was tring to adjust the water reg. but it wouldn't adjust down. I'm sure it's something simple that I'm not doing right. Or could it be the gas pumps' pressure is over powering it?


Joe

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[saphead]

I heard a new one this friday @ Bascom's concerning washing tubing w/vacuum; 1 oz. of pan cleaner (phosphoric acid) to 1 gal. of water. I know of some producers that just suck in a little calcium chloride solution and let it zip down to the realeser but pan cleaner solution is a new one. Do any Mapletraders clean w/vacuum?,rinse after? I do like the idea of not spraying chemicals all over the woods!

[brookledge]

Craig,
I use my vacuum to clean all of my tubing. I use calcium hypoclorite and water. When I pull one tap at a time alot of air mixes in with the solution so it works well. As I go the solution runs to my vacuum tank and it dumps there. I do not rinse it aftewards. When I tap next year I will let the first few hours run on the ground to flush the lines.
Keith

[mapleman3]

keith, how do you carry it around? 5 gal pails? must take a while 8O

[brookledge]

I usually mix it up in a five gal pail. and then carry around a 1 gal pail. Doing it this way does not require much to clean the lines. By utilizing the air that is being sucked into the tap all you need to do is dunk the tap into the solution a few times and that is it. It is actuallly pretty quick. 1 gallon will do about 30 taps.
Keith

[themapleking]

I clean my lines with a tubing washer and clorine. Then I'll clean them again with clean water. After cleaning the lines I'll run the vacuum pump at max 25" and pull each drop line starting at the end and work down to the main and suck out everything.
This will also dry out the lines, nothing for the rodents to drink.
I have found if you have batiera growing in the lines. The only way to clean it out, with out replacing it is with a high air and water pressure system. I had to buy a new I.R. gas compressor 12cfm this year my 35 yr old sears one just didn't have enough cfm to get to the end of the 1500 mainline.

[craigglewis]

Setting up at 1000 tap vacuum system for the first time. I will be getting a tube washer and I was thing of using a liquid solution. That way I will be able to hook up a system based on the Venturi effect. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venturi

Here is a picture of one
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Green_Hope_High_School_%28Physics_Laboratory _Venturi_Tube%29_2006.jpg

The tubing washer is:

4 gpm General high pressure pump , 17 cfm 3 cylinder air compressor , 11 hp Honda electric start--

What is the best solution to use for cleaning and what is there ratio to water?

Hydrogen Peroxide
Chlorine
Clorox
Tub-O-Net
Calcium hypoclorite
Bleach

Would anyone know what rate, solution, water and air, I need to use, and how much water?

We are looking at 2-1800’ 1-1/4” (3,600’) main lines, and 30-500’ ¾” (15,000’) lateral lines, and approx 15,000’ of tubing.

[royalmaple]

Why don't you buy one of kevin's tubing washers. And I was helping him find a way to do the venturi valve as you mentioned for adding cleaner.

I think we got it darn near perfect + or - 90%

Send him a message @ maple hill sugarhouse

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[HanginAround]

I read an interesting article on using peroxide awhile ago, but don't remember many details :roll: LOL. I just remember that I thought it would be worth trying. Bleaches usually leave salts behind, and the critters love it, but still probably the most commonly used.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

I use the calcium hypercloride and it works good for me and rodents don't bother the tubing much at all. :)

[maplehound]

My dealer told me to use Alchol to clean. The squirels and coons won't bother the tubing once they get a taste of it.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

What kind of alcohol??

[maplehound]

not real sure what kind he is using but he said he sells what he is using by the gallon. I think it is a food grade isopropel alcohol :? I won't need to worry about it this year but that is what I will use next year.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Anyone know where to pick up something like that?

[maplehound]

Brandon,
E-mail docmaple@msn.com he will tell you what it is. Tell him Ron Wehr told you to contact him.

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[royalmaple]

Yup, I know a guy that use to do that and chase it with nyquil. Pretty bad if you ask me. Lot the nascar commercials, how bad do you got it. I'd say pretty bad.

If sugaring had national sponsors, it would be funny to show commercials like the nascar ones, with the how bad to you got it syndrome for maple production.

Guy doing time trials on tapping trees, etc. Funny stuff.

Boiling water for 12-14 hours for conditioning.

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

Keep it on two wheels,
The Governor

[Mike]

Another way to go would be to use the bidegradable spout inserts.....I hear they work great....Some use the new stubby 5/16 spouts with the inserts...I think im going to try the inserts next year..