Tubes into Buckets VS Sap Sacks

[Mboeselager]

I've been tapping about 30 trees for about 5 years. I've noticed that my sap sacks fill up better than when I use tubes into buckets. Is this my imagination or is there any science behind this (or something I'm doing wrong)?

[ir3333]

i have noticed my buckets on 3' of tubing will run for hours after my pails on taps have stopped...sometimes for another day?
Having said that my buckets on tubing are larger trees..I'm puzzled

[ir3333]

wow..no one else has comparative results for pails on trees as well as tubes into buckets

[ecolbeck]

This year I transitioned from tubing to ground buckets to hanging buckets. I can’t say that I’ve noticed any difference in behavior.

[Sugar Bear]

Here is my take on my observations that started in the early 1970's on this matter.

If NO natural vacuum is generated in the situation and all tubing is in a DOWNWARD SLOPING position. the following is true on a specific hypothetical tap.

The shorter the tubing the faster the tap will run. Spout to a hanging bucket will run the fastest in the short term.

However, the longer the tubing, the longer the tap hole will retain its flow over the season, I assume because it is not as exposed to the elements.

If natural vacuum is generated/involved the dynamics and productivity of the longer tubing changes in favor of the longer tubing such that it "might" outperform buckets over the season because the reverse pressure is created on the tap hole and even longer tap hole life is created from the reverse pressure time on the tap hole.

If taps on tubing do not generate any natural vacuum it is very difficult for them to outperform a spout to a bucket over the course of a typical season even with the extended tap hole life they may have.

Some people with mechanical vacuum leave pumps on at warm ups to keep air off the tap holes. I will bet that helps in preserving tap hole life. Assuming one has no leaks in their system. If they do have leaks they would be better off leaving pumps off at such time and let the taps be much like food out in the woods that is at least wrapped up in plastic wrap so to speak. CV spouts would pay benefits at this time as well.

[ir3333]

OK..if you have over 36" of tubing that turns horizontal and always has about 6 inches or more of sap accumulated
at the open end in the pail, is it drawing a small vacuum and increasing flow as well as protecting the tap.

[Sugar Bear]

OK..if you have over 36" of tubing that turns horizontal and always has about 6 inches or more of sap accumulated
at the open end in the pail, is it drawing a small vacuum and increasing flow as well as protecting the tap.

My guess is as follows.

No that would not be generating any beneficial vacuum.

The 36" of tubing is not sloped enough or at all ( you said it is horizontal ) so the sap is collecting in the tubing because it is not overcoming the friction of the tubing and the gradual slope out of the tubing.

As sap stops flowing towards the end of a run, some or all of this accumulated sap will be sucked back into the tap hole along with microbes that want to get the healing process of the wound started. Once sap travels through tubing it has microbes in it. The older the tubing the more microbes it will have.

You can't really protect a tap hole while sap is running as most of the protection is provided by the flow of the sap itself. Much like bleeding when we cut ourselves protects us from infection. Vacuum protects tap holes for two reasons ... 1) it increases flow at the tap hole 2) It restricts any airflow ( dirty ) to the location of the tap hole.

I find the best way to do drops to buckets is as vertical and as short as possible. Of these two, vertical is much more important then short. While the longer tubing does keep the tap hole farther away from outside air. But a 5 foot drop line to bucket offers only a nominal difference in protection over say a 18 inch drop line. Drops to tubing runs of some distance offer more protection but generate more friction and less output per tap hole if they do not have enough slope and vacuum generated in order to overcome the friction of the fluid running through the tubing run.

The most effective drops to buckets are the ones that hold no sap columns. Any that do are not vertical enough.

[ir3333]

ok ..i wasn't very clear.My tubes drop vertical for 30" and the last 6" or so
enter the buckets almost horizontal. What puzzles me is they drip for hours
sometimes after my taps on pails stop...but they are on bigger trees.
tx!

[DrTimPerkins]

...is they drip for hours sometimes after my taps on pails stop...but they are on bigger trees.

Most likely you've answered your own question.

[ir3333]

I was hoping you would comment. So it's neither the taps or tubes but the large trees
that are making the difference.
Tx!

[DrTimPerkins]

So it's neither the taps or tubes but the large trees that are making the difference.!

Probably not. Larger trees will run longer...bigger pipes...which take longer to completely thaw out.

Now if your droplines were 5-10' long and 3/16", then maybe natural vacuum would play a part.

[Chickenman]

Chiming in on this. I had 2 taps in 1 tree that I did experiment with. 1 tap had a 38 inch drop to a bucket and the other had the tubing circling the tree with 8 foot of tubing and longer tubing did much better and for longer then the short drop. Was almost 3 times when I emptied the buckets.

[ecolbeck]

Chiming in on this. I had 2 taps in 1 tree that I did experiment with. 1 tap had a 38 inch drop to a bucket and the other had the tubing circling the tree with 8 foot of tubing and longer tubing did much better and for longer then the short drop. Was almost 3 times when I emptied the buckets.

Right, but we know that no two buckets on the same tree perform exactly the same anyway. That's why experiments rely on replication.

[Sugar Bear]

I was hoping you would comment. So it's neither the taps or tubes but the large trees
that are making the difference.
Tx!

Bigger trees will flow faster for sure, but I say you would do slightly, albeit very slightly, better without that 6" horizontal.

In the beginning of the season it takes my bigger trees longer to thaw and start flowing well, at which time the smaller trees flow better. In the same forest aspect.

By mid season the bigger trees rule the flow rate.

Smaller trees fade faster than the bigger trees late into the season.

But poorly placed/designed taps on tubing can easily flow slower then taps on hanging buckets if they are sloppy and poorly sloped. From a single tap with a single drop to a bucket to a bunch of taps into a mainline.