Will the addiction ever be satisfied??

[Hkb82]

I’m looking to hear from some of the large producers that have thousands of taps and wondering if there ever is a point where enough is enough or are you always thinking about adding more? I get that property size or lease area size will likely determine the max totals you could have but do you always dream of more? I’m guessing most of you are several generations in that bush to be at that size but even still. Did you take over and start adding more lines after your father and grandfather. How old are some of your sugar bushes to be at that level of the game? I’m sure once your starting to see some actual annual income increase will fuel the fire to upsize. Thanks I’m advance and sorry if this is covered already but I couldn’t find it.
Happy sapping

[blissville maples]

For some of us like myself it's a disease! It's always fun to try to produce more with the same setup and that tells us what we do is helping or hurting.

I believe that some of us are just looking for something to do that ends up being productive and enjoyable to an extent, While others like myself love producing things starting with nothing and ending up with a finished product is very rewarding. There is a great sense of Pride and accomplishment that comes with this especially when you start getting up there in Tap count, and then those like myself who have always worked for themselves take an entrepreneurial look on it. I guess I feel I have the entrepreneurial aspect and love the sense of accomplishment that goes with it.

I will say at 5200 taps I don't think in happy yet. My goal is to make between 3-5000 Gallons of syrup which will make for a profitable enough operation to be sustainable and the ability to make a living.

[DrTimPerkins]

UVM Extension does a good amount of "business" work on maple, led by Mark Cannella. Lots of good info on size of operation vs income/expense. For those actually trying to make money from maple, it is a good place to start when planning a business to provide income.
https://blog.uvm.edu/farmvia/?page_id=394

[Kh7722]

I am first generation farmer and got hooked on maple about 10 yrs ago. We started with 10 trees and now have 1000. As others have said it is an addition. We will probably stop when the demand for selling retail stops which is based on how much we want to grow. For me personally the hustle is what drives me to keep going, I love being able to market our farm and family story which in turn keeps us growing. Looking at the future there is no stopping, just keep adding trees and most of all have fun at the size that is satisfying to you weather its 10 or 100k
Kevin

[ecp]

I guess you would need to define large producer a little better. This partly depends on your region too because a 10k tapping operation may be considered large to some people (in one region) but not other people (in a different regions).

Mostly I (no I don't consider myself as a large producer) try to keep it fun, but I am always looking to add and/or change out sections to increase efficiency and productivity. That being said the addiction never stops and it hard to get to a point of being full time because larger equipment is pricy which hurts the bottom line. It's not much different than the milk market around where I live it seems (on a good year you sink profits into equipment and adding, and on a bad year you sink non existent profits into adding to cover the looses).

The generational thing seems to be less a part of producers size as everyone wants in on maple, and its more about who is comfortable with debt from what I see. Don't get me wrong there are plenty of bush's out there that have big time heritage, but that doesn't necessarily help you get to a big tap count if you don't what the debt of the shiny 70 thousand dollar RO.

For me the heritage is very important and I'd be fine with staying where we are right now but if the right opportunity arose I would do an expansion simple because I love and I'd want to give more to my kids not because I think it could get me over the hump to being full time.

[Hkb82]

Wow hard to believe that a 10k tap operation could be considered a small operation. I own a campground in my area so I understand what would be involved in starting something like that to a certain degree. It’s a slow time during the month of March for me kinda at the end of ice fishing and snowmobiling season so that’s one of the reasons I started doing it. My grandfather was also into it and judging from pics I’ve seen he had 100s of buckets. He had a stroke when I was real young so I never had the chance to work with him in the bush but have seen many pics and stories. I guess that’s why I like the heritage part of it.
I have no intention on making it another business that’s for sure. I’m leaving that to the pros. I sell what I can in our store during our camping season in hopes of covering my costs plus a little extra. Give a lot away to friends and family as I’m sure so many of you do. I get cost of the equipment is a huge part of the picture when your talking a 10k tree operation. I guess that’s why I was thinking a lot of these farms were being passed down and therefore not having to totally start from scratch with equipment. Using what’s already in place and then adding/upgrading to it as you continue down your path. if you have deep enough pockets then I guess you can start any business from scratch but that would be a pretty big task to take on unless your hiring people with the knowledge to make it happen. Even if your building debt I’m sure your going to need some good credit or investors to borrow for something like that especially if your just starting out with zero experience.
I was more just curious on wether the big boys are always dreaming of more taps like the little boys and how long it took for you to get to the thousands of trees tapped. I can’t walk past a sugar maple In my bush without looking at how I could get my lines there lol. I’d like to be around the 500 taps one day and that’s what kinda made me think when I hit the 500 mark will I be dreaming of 1000. I’m sure I will as I have a bit of an addictive personality when it comes to things like this. Don’t get me started on fishing and hunting and what ive collected with those hobbies through the years. better yet don’t tell my wife. Thanks

[blissville maples]

One word of advice to anyone trying to be profitable..... the 2 worst things you can do are as follows:

Take a loan on excess of 5000. This will not only take the fun out of it as you must make a solid profit, otherwise your a NPO, your not trying to make 100k your first year but you don't want it to be discouraging with a loss either. You MUST only spend what you can. This requires two things. 1 start with 500 taps and don't plan on being at 3-5000k for atleast 5-6 years. This will do two things a give you the ability to prove yourself and find out if you are meant to work in the outdoors Mother Nature is a mean b**** and many can't handle it. 2 instead of flopping a 75k investment you may only flop 10k which is digestible. I've seen big money enter maple but they aren't country enough to make it, and a business only as good as it's employees if your relying on a ten man crew- I've had employees I know first hand.

Secondly, go on YouTube and watch Robert kiyosaki "rich poor dad" .... I've been self-employed since I was 20 years old and the one thing about working for yourself you need to absolutely not be married to a paycheck every Friday, if you need a paycheck every Friday to pay the electricity bill pay that car payment to make that mortgage payment you're better off staying at your 9 to 5, do not work for yourself trust me. This is the most important thing to being an entrepreneur, forget that Friday paycheck, we make our 'profits' not 'paychecks' monthly, bi monthly or whenever that wheel completes it's turn.

Maple sugaring is no different it's an entrepreneur type business. You will have an investment and you will have a +/- return based on how you play your cards it's that simple.

You can do all the forms and worksheets you want which may or may not work for a given scenario, but nothing will replace ingenuity and the will to succeed when your in the mits of it that's a fact. Common sense approach and hard work is all you need. If your car breaks down and you're too scared to open the hood and try to figure it out cuz you're not mechanically inclined he might want to think twice about spending a hundred grand in the maple business, because when you're in the middle of March and your pump, releaser, or ro is broken guess what- there is not a garage on every corner to help you your almost on your own in that regard, yes leader, d and g, cdl all have techs but you have 2 techs serving 100 people. When you have 5000-50000 gallons of sap and it's 40-50degrees out that sap isn't going to wait for your ro to get fixed it may spoil and your now looking money on the ground because you haven't the ingenuity or mechanically inclined enough to fix it.

Anyways just some food for thought for those looking to make an investment. Alot of things to consider

Btw forgot about that shiny 50k r.o that can happen after you use a used one with a few mildew stains on hoses for 10 years and again prove your worthy of the business.....all ROs separate water and sugar not just the expensive ones. I bough my 1000 for 7500 sent to canada added recirc for 2600, they also swapped all hoses, new valves in front and in back, etc. My next vessel will cost 3-5k but for less than 15k I'll have an ro that performs as well as a 25-30,000 machine. Just an example of how you can stay away from payments and enjoy more profits!! You really have to be cautious where you unload your money!

[ecp]

I was more just curious on wether the big boys are always dreaming of more taps like the little boys and how long it took for you to get to the thousands of trees tapped. I can’t walk past a sugar maple In my bush without looking at how I could get my lines there lol. I’d like to be around the 500 taps one day and that’s what kinda made me think when I hit the 500 mark will I be dreaming of 1000. I’m sure I will as I have a bit of an addictive personality when it comes to things like this. Don’t get me started on fishing and hunting and what ive collected with those hobbies through the years. better yet don’t tell my wife. Thanks

To answer your question it depends on the person, but a lot of the big boys (around me that generally above 20k taps) still want to expand. With technology changes existing operations could have the potential of costing more than a new operation because not only do you need to stay current (somewhat anyways) but you have the added fees and time of getting rid of old material and equipment, and the larger the equipment is the worse resale is. I sway I can go but a 6x16 evaporator somedays for the same as a 2x8.

[fisheatingbagel]

I think part of the attraction of wanting to increase tap count, etc., is when you realize how much work is involved with even a small operation and thinking that increasing tap count and efficiency (RO, larger evaporator, etc) won't increase the work *that* much, but will yield much more output - more output for the same or a little more work. It taps into (pun intended lol) our latent desire to make and improve.

[Hkb82]

Not sure I agree with it not increasing the work load. More taps for me equals more lines more taps more leaks more ice time trenching through the bush bigger tank storage and that alone can be more work dealing with ice and added pumps. Let’s not forget cleanup at the end of the season.

Ecp you said to answer my question it depends on the person but that’s why I posted it I thought. To hear from a bunch of people about more the addiction side of it. I understand the cost side of things. Again to a certain degree as I’m hobby size. I’m always looking at new stuff online and in the books they send me even if it’s way outa my league.
Guess I started the thread wrong. I don’t mind hearing about the business side of it but that’s not really what I was looking for. I just thought people might chime in with stuff like
Ya I’ve been doing it for 30 years I’m the third generation in the same bush. Addicted still as day one grew over the years to 7000 taps. Ups and downs highs and lows Stuff like that.
Maybe a thread like the (you know you’re an addict when) one but titled how addicted are you lol. Thanks and glad to see so many responses.

[Sugarmaker]

Ok, will try to put mu spin on this addiction to maple thing. Started helping on 100 bucket farm operation when a young kid. in my teens helped Dad tap 250 rented roadside maples. Had a team of ponies I was going to gather with. That didnt happen and I soon was driving the pickup gathering with friends. We boiled on a antique 3 x 10 Warren wood arch converted to fuel oil burner.
I continued to help tap and gather till our evaporator arch got bad and someone burnt the pans up. We hauled sap to neighbors to have boiled on shares. I took syrup to work to sell for the first time in about 97 I think. Might have sold several hundred dollars of syrup. Dad passed away I I thought I was done making syrup. Helped a neighbor tap and make syrup and then the bug came back and I decided to make some syrup on a small scale. Found the old busted up arch Dad had bought in 84 setting where we unloaded it in the weeds, and began a couple year restoration with a old set of used pans. Decided we needed a sugarhouse to hold this rig. and 20 years ago boiled our first syrup in it. Still learning about making syrup. Just a few hundered taps but it keeps me out of trouble, and I enjoy mentoring others. I like to poke my head in other sugarhouses too. I also try to get everthing I can from the system i run. Usually average near a quart per tap. The old rig has been tuned up to boil about 120 gallons of raw sap per hour. I like building and improving but at some point its good enough, just run it!
When will it end? Not sure? Do I want to expand? No I went from 300 taps, to 400 buckets. Then moved over to tubing and have around 600 taps on 30 simple gravity systems. Still doing road side trees just like Dad. He wanted a string of cows. I wanted a string of maples!
Regards,
Chris

[Hkb82]

That’s the kinda stuff I was looking for thanks for sharing. I bet your dad was looking down with the biggest grin on his face wile you were bringing his old arch back to life.

[BnSmaple]

The addiction never ends for most. I started out tapping 30 with a homemade barrel evaporator about 12 years ago now I’m at around 8000. I keep telling myself once I hit a certain number I’m done but every time I do it seems like some new opportunity pops up that I just can’t say no to. My current cutoff is at 20k

[blissville maples]

There are two things that will have me up at 5 in the morning; 1. An intense morning of fishing for salmon or striped Bass 2. A sap run that has gone thru the night and the excitement that comes with it.

For me it's like a kid on Christmas morning. Last weekend I had to lay in bed for half an hour at 5am before realizing just get up. And at 9 pm I still can't wind down if there's something to do that pertains to sugaring, and of course being self employed drives that mechanism.

It's a disease that's the best way to explain it..I can't even begin to explain the intensity someone who is addicted to maple brings. Most would get tired watching some of us for half an hr.

One thing that really drives people to do things they like is dopamine. Joggers, weight lifters, body builders, bicyclists all get dopamine highs from working out, and more so the feelings of accomplishment and working the body and mind. I do believe someone as I gets the same effect from the intensity of doing maple. There's deffinantly a physchological aspect to the addiction of more and bigger that the human mind posses(atleast 90% of us, some could care less)

[Ultimatetreehugger]

I've been at this since 2016 but I am a 3rd generation Christmas tree farmer. We have about 80,000 trees. So I started helping a friend in the sugar woods during college and saw a pile of buckets in his barn. I started with 10 buckets at the beginning of the season and had 50 by the end. I was hooked.
The next spring I was in a new relationship and my girlfriend bought me a roll of 3/16 tubing (I tell her it's all her fault) so I ran 50 taps into a cage tank under my friends support. It was the coolest thing in the world. I'd get more sap out of those 50 taps than I did my 100 buckets and made 30 gallons that year.
In the winter of my third year my friend passed. He was a father to me and that's when I decided to take this hobby seriously. His dream was to make his farm self sustained financially without buying more land and using his property to the fullest. So that's what I am working to do in his memory. I don't want to get bigger than 10,000. My rule is to not be bigger that myself and one other person can handle. I love it, I love the work, and hope to enjoy it for years to come.

[Hkb82]

I’m sure your buddy would be happy your keeping it going. Keep at it and happy sapping.

[TheNamelessPoet]

OK so I'll chime in here.
Yes I want MOAR! I only have 19 taps at the moment but I started 30+ years ago. My grandfather just dug out the photo's on my request of when we did it with 2 MAYBE 3 trees at his mothers house in the late 80's.

Fast-forward to the late 2010's and I am looking to buy a house with my wife and young daughter. I wanted a house with good shade, I hate the heat lol. Well the 1st thing I noticed when I pulled in the 1st time I looked the house we eventually bought, was the giant maple (silver not sugar, I didn't know at the time). I spent 30 minutes wandering around in the yard looking at the trees in the spring trying to figure out what I could tap. 2019 I tapped for the 1st time on my own... and now I need an intervention! The 1st year I had 14 taps... I came home every day at lunch to see what I had in my buckets lol. My grandfather has a place in Main that I have kept my eye on... some day... I am going to build a sugarhouse on it and tape the hundreds of trees... Natural grade down to the house from the trees... I'm getting excited just thinking about it!

But then I will have to buy the neighbor's farm's on both sides... In Maine they have "unorganized territories" that are owned by the logging companies. 2 Miles by 3 Miles IIRC... Imagine the trees I could tap... then once you get that set (and profitable...) you can get buy the one next to it... and then the next one and the next one... It's like the game Risk, but I won't have to fight... ill just keep buying... one day 20 taps... some day... THE WORLD!!!




BTW... I think I might have a problem...

Hi my name is Kevin... and I am a Sugar-haulic...

[Danielb]

It is definately an addiction. No question. I started 2 years ago with 11 buckets and a couple canning pots on a wood stove. I just finished tapping today, with 505 taps on 3/16, and adding mechanical vacuum tomorrow to make sure i get everything i can.... My 2x6 raised flue evaporator is going to be busy, i hope.
I know there is no such thing as "enough" and have accepted that. I already have the next 300-400 taps planned out for next year, and the properties i want to see about leasing after that...

[eagle lake sugar]

For me it's all about how many I can comfortably do all by myself. I bought my own property, built all the buildings and installed all of the tubing myself and am currently at 4500 taps. I could probably have around 8000 if I tapped all of them way out back, I'm not sure when I'll stop. When you have to hire help, that's another headache to deal with.

[ecp]

Okay I guess I went the wrong direction here.

For me the addiction will stop when I am dead. My wife is an 8th generation sugar maker on the same property so for us it is a heritage thing that with any luck our kids will take over (although if they were smart they would move out of Vermont haha).

[HannahL]

I'll chime in as well....I wasn't going to respond because i'm just a backwoods mapler doing this for personal consumption. Obviously, the desire and dream of being a big producer is there but just not in the cards for me at this point. I started taping trees in my parents yard before I was a teenager and learned from books. I boiled it down on my moms cook stove and the wood stove in the house, maybe got a pint of syrup a year in those early days. I picked it back up in my late teens using a turkey fryer and whatever else I could get my hands on. Once my boys got a little older I decided we needed something to do in the spring and acquired a 2x3 flat pan and welded my own arch up and we went from a dozen taps making a couple gallons of syrup to running about 60 taps on gravity and 17 gallons of syrup.

I've taken the last couple years off and recently bought 90 acres full of Red Maple and looking to upgrade to a larger drop flu pan next for next year. The icing on the cake come yesterday when my oldest son, hes 21 now, called and asked if he could borrow the old 2x3 because him and his buddy are taping trees this year. I gave him some pointers and said have it.....The torch has been passed and my job as a father has come to fruition, so to speak. It's the little things in life that make us get out of bed every morning.

[Pdiamond]

I would've liked to have been there to see the smile on your face after that phone call. We all hope and wait for those days.

[Hkb82]

Enjoy that new 90 acres and from the sounds of it ya got a couple spare hands to help if you need it.

[Hkb82]

With what is looking like a short season weather wise I’ve decided to use the time to plan for next year. Got up to 160+ Trees tapped this year. A new high for me. I’m thinking 300-350 next year. Got a few 1000l holding tanks on the way plus what I already have. started cleaning trails to make life easier next year. Going to try and put most if not all on vacuum. Also going to add some sort of ro into the mix.

[Sugarmaker]

I'll chime in as well....I wasn't going to respond because i'm just a backwoods mapler doing this for personal consumption. Obviously, the desire and dream of being a big producer is there but just not in the cards for me at this point. I started taping trees in my parents yard before I was a teenager and learned from books. I boiled it down on my moms cook stove and the wood stove in the house, maybe got a pint of syrup a year in those early days. I picked it back up in my late teens using a turkey fryer and whatever else I could get my hands on. Once my boys got a little older I decided we needed something to do in the spring and acquired a 2x3 flat pan and welded my own arch up and we went from a dozen taps making a couple gallons of syrup to running about 60 taps on gravity and 17 gallons of syrup.

I've taken the last couple years off and recently bought 90 acres full of Red Maple and looking to upgrade to a larger drop flu pan next for next year. The icing on the cake come yesterday when my oldest son, hes 21 now, called and asked if he could borrow the old 2x3 because him and his buddy are taping trees this year. I gave him some pointers and said have it.....The torch has been passed and my job as a father has come to fruition, so to speak. It's the little things in life that make us get out of bed every morning.

That is so cool! Not sure that day will come in my family, but hoping!
Have fun making syrup with him.
Regards,
Chris