5/16 tubing question

[kevin.graves35]

Hello all,

This year I decided to give 5/16 tubing a try. Last few years I've used 5/16 drop lines into 5 gallon buckets. I have a few runs, 25-75ft in length with good pitch. 5/16 main line. I'm using 5/16 drop lines as well. The runs average about 10 taps per run, some less. This afternoon I came home to the lower part of the lines full of sap and very little in my collection points. Is this normal? It didn't look like it was flowing. I'm still trying to figure this out. I know you don't want to vent the line so I'm thinking there isn't enough natural vacuum? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

[ecolbeck]

It's very early in the season, this is our first major thaw. I've only gotten a quart or so per tap. Also I don't believe that 5/16 line develops vacuum, only 3/16 line does that.

[kevin.graves35]

So I'm being impatient? Just unsure if this is normal or of I did something wrong.

[ecolbeck]

I can’t see any issues based on what you’ve said. Tap the trees, run the line, collect the sap. This is only our first warmup in the region and trees take a long time to thaw

[eustis22]

What is your pitch? And did you consider 3/16 tubing if you are not adding vacuum?

[Russell Lampron]

What you are experiencing is normal and you'll get plenty of sap when the conditions are right. You won't get as much natural vacuum with 5/16 as you will with 3/16 but if you're planning to add mechanical vacuum in the future stick with the 5/16 and run a 3/4" mainline. There are a few options for mechanical vacuum without using a releaser to keep the expense down.

[bill m]

I don't think you have done anything wrong. It's still early in the season and the trees have to thaw before they will start to run good. Also 5/16 tubing does not develope vacuum like 3/16 does.

[kevin.graves35]

I have no plans for vacuum systems. I only have about 30-40 total taps and no option to increase as I'm only tapping trees on my 2 acre lot. I'm guessing the slope on them is about 15% if not more. It seems that I'm just being impatient and need to wait for a good sap run as yesterday was the first of the season. I was just worried with the amount of sap still in the tubing. I'm guessing that it's safe to assume that will work its way into my collection tanks in a timely manner. If not, do I need to worry about it spoiling in the lines? Sorry if this is common knowledge among the group, this whole tubing thing is new to me.:confused:

[ecolbeck]

Although I do not use tubing, I don't believe that residual sap in the lines is a problem. It will work its way down to your collection bin.

[DrTimPerkins]

When it is time -- the sap will run. There will be sap left in the lines...that is normal. Ignore the temptation to VENT...you will get all the sap that is in the line to come out quickly, then it'll stop. Just let it happen naturally.

[kevin.graves35]

Thank you all for the advice!

[maple flats]

If you use 3/16 with a 15% drop, you will likely do better the first year (I'll explain later). On 5/16 it's almost impossible to get natural vacuum because the sap can pass the air(gases) from in the tree. On 3/16 the sap doesn't pass the air, thus you get vacuum by gravity. The amount depends on how long the drop is sustained. If you can go 100', at 15% drop the top tree will have almost 15" of vacuum, if you can get 200' at 15% drop the top tree will have 27-28" vacuum. To get those numbers you want 20-25 taps on a line, and I suggest 5/16 drops into the 3/16 laterals. On each line as the total drop decreases so does the vacuum on that tap.
Now, the later explanation, The first year every thing is new and clean. To get nearly similar results in years 2 and beyond you need to do some work. Shortly after the season you need to clean the tubing using calcium Hypochlorite , then repeat it in the mid fall, while the temperatures are not below freezing. Also in years 2 and beyond change all tees and any couplings (any fittings in the 3/16 line), the reduced I.D. catches any debris flowing down and often plugs the fitting.
A second method is to fill the entire length of the tubing with the calcium hypochlorite, including the drops and don't drain it until mid fall. Then flush with fresh potable water.
On either of these, you need to use a new tap each year for best results. In year 1 a cheap seasonal tap is fine, in yrs 2 on, I suggest a CV tap or a CV adapter and a stubby, I prefer the CV tap.
Back to your 5/16 lines, have patience and don't exceed 10 taps per lateral, while 5/16 won't give you vacuum, it will do a fine job of moving the sweet water to your collection tank.

[eustis22]

>A second method is to fill the entire length of the tubing with the calcium hypochlorite, including the drops and don't drain it until mid fall.

Uh, doesn't the tubing then absorb the calcium hypochlorite?

[kevin.graves35]

The runs are small enough where I was planning to take the lines down to clean in the house and store for the summer. Is this not advisable? I was also going to use a bleach concentrate to clean, again should I avoid bleach? Thanks again.

[NhShaun]

I think a diluted bleach solution is more advisable, you may never be able to clean the concentrated bleach out of that line. If they are short enough lines it would be helpful to take them in for the off season. You'll avoid any critter or storm damage and possible UV break down from the harsh sun which will also prevent any mold growth. I would clean them and let them dry fully before taking them down, then store them out of sight and don't forget to mark which is which.

[kevin.graves35]

I was thinking I might get a few more seasons out of them if I take them down and store them! I'm also upgrading my collection points from 5 gallon buckets to 30 gallon drums. Would you advise to drill holes in the bungs to drop the lines into or do I need a vent in the barrel? Should I drill a hole in the top of the side and drop in that way? That's how I did it with the buckets...

[NhShaun]

If it's a nicely drilled hole in the bung a bit smaller than the tubing it will fit well and prevent rain or snow melt from getting into your barrels. You could drill a small hole in the side of the barrel for venting purposes as well as another hole for the tubing and avoid drilling the top of your barrel all together.

[eustis22]

bleach will attract squirrel chewing, hence the calcium hypochlorite. You don't really need to take them down...just flush, rinse at the end of the season and before winter. it's advisable to change out taps/tees yearly, though, to maintain sap production (you can never clean the bacteria out of plastic, even with boiling). Someone more learned can advise on re using stainless steel spiles to cut overhead. I haven't gone There yet.

[DrTimPerkins]

Someone more learned can advise on re using stainless steel spiles to cut overhead.

You can get them pretty darn close with a serious cleaning regimen, but generally new plastic will still be a tiny bit better.

Interesting show on the other night about the new Mars Rover Perseverance. it has collection tubes for core samples they hope to eventually return to earth on another mission. They did a multi-level hard-core cleaning of the tubes so as not to contaminate them, but then found that they got "stuck" in the sample holding mechanism when they tried to extract and insert them. Turns out that all the engineering specification "friction" measurements for such things were done on regular material, not the ultra-ultra-ultra cleaning method they were using. The absolute removal of all the machining oils and residues from the air caused just enough friction between the metal parts that it caused a real problem. The solution was to not clean the outside of the tubes that had to slide into the carrier quite as well, but just do the super-duper cleaning for the inside of the tube.

[maple flats]

>A second method is to fill the entire length of the tubing with the calcium hypochlorite, including the drops and don't drain it until mid fall.

Uh, doesn't the tubing then absorb the calcium hypochlorite?
In my experience the lines are still full when I drain them in the fall, and it leaves the lines "looking" very clean. I never had any issues, but I only did this 1 year, then I retired. Chlorine bleach leaves a salt residue (sodium) the calcium hypochlorite may leave calcium, but the squirrels don't go for that. Once drained, flush well with potable water.