defoamer - where and when

[berkshires]

In previous years I boiled on steam tray pans. This will be my first year boiling on a divided pan and attempting to draw off syrup (or nearup).

So in the past if my syrup pan started to foam up like it was getting close to syrup, I would ladle some off into my container for boiling later, and then back-fill with sap from another pan. Now I will be doing things in a "better" way and will be actually trying to get the last channel to syrup, or close to it, and then doing small draw-offs. This means I'll have to be able to deal with those foam ups, and I assume that means defoamer.

It's just a flat pan, no flues, so I don't think I have to be concerned about foam-up in the first few channels, right? (Assuming I don't let them get too nitre-d up.) But I'd love to know if anyone has a primer on how to apply defoamer for a divided flat pan. Do I just add a few drops of vegetable oil in the syrup channel when it starts to foam up too much? Or do I need to add it to another channel and let it get "drawn" through to the last channel?

Any advice would be appreciated!

Thanks!

Gabe

[ecp]

You will get the hand pretty quick. This really depends on the type of defoamer you are using. If using synthetic defoamer just put a drop in when you start and a drop in the feeder box when things are getting foamy. If you are using oil than a squirt bottle does the trick nicely just aim and fire (fun job for the kids when they visit).

If you want to go old school and there are no allergy/kosher issues some milk or butter does just fine (butter is way better but milk in a mason jay with holes punched in the top does work just fine). If you want to get classy old school just hang a piece of raw bacon at the height you want your foam to stay below (the foam hits the bacon and goes right back don't). For fun while kids are around use a piece of salted pork fat on a wire and hit the foam with it. I know I'll probably get some negative feedback on the old school ways and they are not allowed if selling in bulk (just to claify I do not use the old school ways because of bulk sales), but it worked for generations, and if you are doing it for family use only these options still work. My great grandfather was a fan of salted pork fat which he got from his father yada yada. That old man would put some pork fat on his finger (when I was not looking) and flick it at the foam while he yelled get done said he was "training the foam" as a kid it took me years to figure out just how the #ell he trained it because every time I yelled at it nothing happened so he would have to show me again how to be stern with it. haha

[maple flats]

I've found it best to be pro-active. May I suggest you add a drop near where the sap goes in on a time schedule. I might suggest every hour, 1 drop of Atmos de-foamer. If you get no foam any place in the pan, stay with that, if foam starts change the schedule to every 45 minutes and observe, if more is needed try a 30 minutes schedule. You want to realize there is a big difference in foam and bubbles. The near syrup will begin to bubble as it gets closer to being syrup. Foaming is when a fairly light colored tiny foam bubbles start to build and they will climb over the sides of the pan if not controlled.
Each year will likely be different on how much de-foamer is needed, some years it might need 2 or 3x what is needed in other years.
I can't address exactly how much you will need, but I can just give you an example of how mine was last year. First of all, I am not boiling sap, I boil 10-12% concentrate and I draw off up to 7-9 gal of syrup an hour. I use a dispenser to add the defoamer. I set it to add a drop about every 90 seconds. If I get no foaming I slow the drops, if I get foaming I crank it up just a tiny amount at a time.
It's really not hard, you just want to find the least amount you can use to maintain control on your pans.

[18mile]

If you are planning to draw off finish syrup, you need to be careful not to have a foam up. A little preemptive defoamer is needed. You need to experiment and try to and use the minimum amount. The amount needed will change throughout the season typically late season forms more. If you have almost finished syrup in the pan and it foams up you are close to a burnt pan. You can never leave this unattended. Keep A container of sap ready to knock down any over boils.

[berkshires]

So do I understand that it needs to go in at the sap end? I would think that that would tend to leave most of it on the sides of the pan before it even got to the last channel?

And do I understand that by the time it starts to foam up, it's too late for defoamer? Instead you need to deploy the oh-**** bucket? That is confusing to me, because I thought the auto-defoaming cups work by the foam hitting the cup, picking up some defoamer, which causes the foam to die down?

When I cook off at home I often put a little oil/butter on the side of the pan, especially if I'm cooking it to candy stage. That wouldn't work to do on the last channel of the evaporator?

It sounds like everyone is saying it needs to happen where the sap comes into the evaporator, and it needs to happen way in advance. Both of which are confusing to me, because I would think the bad things that would happen are all over in the last channel when it gets close to syrup. I'm not doubting anyone, as I've never done this part before, I'm just trying to understand.

GO

[berkshires]

Oh, and just to be clear, I was planning to bring a little bottle of vegetable oil, not synthetic stuff.

Gabe

[Pdiamond]

I use canola oil with good results. I put it into a ketchup dispenser plastic bottle with the long spout and just add a drop or two at the in coming float box about every five minutes. works for me. I am always watching though so it doesn't go crazy on me.

[18mile]

I think the issue is what is meant by”foaming up”. When cooking down to several degrees less than finished syrup you will get a foam that can be skimmed or de-foamed. This should be done but won’t cause a crisis however, when bringing sap in the pan to finished syrup, the foam can cause the syrup temperature and density to accelerate out of control and turn into Carmel and burn in the pan. This is why you need to stay ahead of the foam. You also need to be careful to watch youR syrup temperature and depth in the pan.

[18mile]

I would also like to add, that while many producers use defoamer dispensers with success, my experience has been that I do better adding by hand

[TapTapTap]

If you are using oil than a squirt bottle does the trick nicely just aim and fire (fun job for the kids when they visit).


I respectfully but strongly disagree that defoaming is a good job for kids. It's a critical job that requires focus. Too much can affect the syrup flavor. Too little can cause your evaporator to burn, particularly the syrup pan. But more importantly, the steam rising off the evaporator is dangerously hot.

[Super Sapper]

If you are going to syrup or almost syrup in the last channel and it starts to foam up and you need to add defoamer, add it at the draw off end. This is only for the last channel. It is better to add where the sap comes in as a preventive measure but sometimes you do not add enough.

[ecp]

I respectfully but strongly disagree that defoaming is a good job for kids. It's a critical job that requires focus. Too much can affect the syrup flavor. Too little can cause your evaporator to burn, particularly the syrup pan. But more importantly, the steam rising off the evaporator is dangerously hot.

I probably should have clarified this a little more I am sorry about that. I let them squirt the bottle when and where I tell them to from far back (those bottles can shoot about 5 feet) not willy nilly. We use canola oil so it flows and squirts easily for the flare ups. With the hoods this really only works for the syrup pan in the back we have a dispenser that I keep an eye on. I would never allow a child over the steam and would never put them in danger knowingly, so I am sorry if I had anyone worried there I am safety first and I hope I didn't offend anyone. There are a lot of kids in my family and I just try to find small things to get them involved and interested in continuing the tradition. When my wife and I have a child it will be the 9th generation on that farm in the 3 sugarhouse on the property so getting kids involved and interested in staying and working is always on my mind. Again if I had anyone worried about safety especially the safety of a child I am sorry. You are correct about quality and using to much or not enough can be an issue either way. I find getting kids involved in some fashion be it pumping sap or squirting a bottle or watching a tank so that it does not overflow (we have floats anyways so it wouldn't happen) to be a part of the tradition and I encourage that over them just sanding there getting cold saying I want to go home. I usually send them home with a pint that they can take to school show their friends and tell their teacher they made.

[berkshires]

Okay, so let me see if I have this right. Please correct me where I'm wrong:

1 - While I'm sweetening the pans, no defoamer. I'm guessing it will probably take me two or more boils at 15-30 gallons each, early in the season, before my last channel at the draw-off gets up to 218-219.

2 - When the last channel starts creeping up in temperature, keep a close eye on it, and have a bucket of sap ready just in case. As it gets close to first draw-off, maybe add a drop or two every half hour to the last channel to be safe.

3 - When I'm ready to do my first draw-off, start adding a drop or two of oil in the first channel where the sap comes in, maybe every half hour. Increase the flow of sap to raise the level in the pans a little, and then start the draw.

4 - Stop adding defoamer in the last (syrup) channel, and continue adding a drop or two every half hour in the sap channel as I continue to boil and do draw-offs every so often.

After step 4, if it looks like it's starting to foam up in the last channel, is there any point to adding a drop or two of oil there to keep it in check? Or do I need to deploy the oh-s#it bucket pronto before it gets out of control?

Gabe

[ennismaple]

We add a teaspoon of the Kasher granulated defoamer every 15 minutes where the sap comes in from the float box into the flue pan. That keeps the foam down throughout both the flue and syrup pans. If we miss a dose I can tell in my syrup pan about a half hour later because it'll foam up on me.

[Pdiamond]

If you are constantly watching your evaporator, you'll know when to add a drop or two of oil. That I can remember when I had my divided pan it never did foam up like my new evaporator does. i think that has to do with how hard the boil gets in the pan.

[berkshires]

If you are constantly watching your evaporator, you'll know when to add a drop or two of oil. That I can remember when I had my divided pan it never did foam up like my new evaporator does. i think that has to do with how hard the boil gets in the pan.

Definitely will be watching it closely, as this is my first year on this evaporator - always batch boiled before. What concerns and confuses me is that most folks seem to be saying that the oil needs to go in at the sap end a half hour before the foam-up would happen at the syrup end. So... no matter how closely I watch, I can't go back in time to put in that oil on the other end of the pan! LOL

GO

[VTnewguy]

Two drops of defoamer where the cold sap comes in every time we fire (every 9 minutes). You might think you don't need it, but consistency is paramount.

[blissville maples]

Two drops of defoamer where the cold sap comes in every time we fire (every 9 minutes). You might think you don't need it, but consistency is paramount.

This is correct, and what all expert say...there is a high level of physics that most of us will never understand when it comes to defoamer - trust me!! It changes surface tension of the bubbles , spread out heat and all kinds of crazy things on a micro physics level!!

Sap pH will have e alot to do with foam, usually a big problem at end of the season

[DrTimPerkins]

Sap pH will have e alot to do with foam, usually a big problem at end of the season

Sap pH and changes in sap pH during boiling has a lot to do with many things: niter and scale formation, syrup flavor and color development, foam.

[berkshires]

Okay, so let me see if I have this right. Please correct me where I'm wrong:

1 - While I'm sweetening the pans, no defoamer. I'm guessing it will probably take me two or more boils at 15-30 gallons each, early in the season, before my last channel at the draw-off gets up to 218-219.

2 - When the last channel starts creeping up in temperature, keep a close eye on it, and have a bucket of sap ready just in case. As it gets close to first draw-off, maybe add a drop or two every half hour to the last channel to be safe.

3 - When I'm ready to do my first draw-off, start adding a drop or two of oil in the first channel where the sap comes in, maybe every half hour. Increase the flow of sap to raise the level in the pans a little, and then start the draw.

4 - Stop adding defoamer in the last (syrup) channel, and continue adding a drop or two every half hour in the sap channel as I continue to boil and do draw-offs every so often.

After step 4, if it looks like it's starting to foam up in the last channel, is there any point to adding a drop or two of oil there to keep it in check? Or do I need to deploy the oh-s#it bucket pronto before it gets out of control?

Gabe

Anyone want to comment on this protocol for a divided flat pan? ^^^ Or have any thoughts about the question at the end?

Thanks!

GO

[Ed R]

The formula I heard at a Leader boiling seminar is one drop of defoamer per 1 foot width of your evaporator. Add at the sap intake channel each time you fire. Only use at the draw of if you really need to if it still wants to foam up. I hit it with defoamer at the draw off before trying to add sap. Start adding defoamer as soon as you have a good boil going in your pans it reduces the need to add at the draw off. Since your pans are quite short you might find 1 drop at each firing is enough

[ecolbeck]

I agree with Ed's post that there needs to be some accounting for the size or GPH rating of your evaporator when considering how much defoamer to add. 2 drops of defoamer every 5 min for a 120GPH evaporator is WAY different than for a 20GPH evaporator.

[DrTimPerkins]

I agree with Ed's post that there needs to be some accounting for the size or GPH rating of your evaporator when considering how much defoamer to add. 2 drops of defoamer every 5 min for a 120GPH evaporator is WAY different than for a 20GPH evaporator.

Also depends upon the type of drawoff you're using. With solenoid start-stop type you can add near the drawoff occasionally when syrup isn't being drawn off and foaming is bad. With a modulating valve, syrup is almost constantly running out, so if you add to the last partition the defoamer runs right out of the rig very quickly and doesn't have any time to act. You have to add it to the middle of the evaporator and let it be drawn though the last few partitions to allow it to work.