new guys rig

[Gary R]

Hello Maple Traders! I introduced myself a little while ago at the Sugar Inn. Last year I made a little birch syrup, beer and wine on a turkey fryer. After too much time and money on propane, I decided to build a rig for my new backyard hobby. I will mostly be making maple now. Most of my designs came from pictures and comments off the Maple Trader. I plan on only 4 or 5 gal. a year, giving most away to family and friends. I need something to keep me busy during late winter and this looks like the ticket. I did my first test boil on Christmas day. Things went well and I am excited. Just a few dozen little things to do and I'm ready for the fun. Attached are a few pictures of my progress. The sugar shack is mobile so I can put it away during the off season. The rig was all built in my barn. I have to thank my father for having a plasma cutter, mig. and sand blaster. Couldn't afford a UTV so I built my BAT mobile (Bad *** Tracker). My wife enjoy's driving me around while I collect buckets. Thank you all for your incite.

Sugarmaker, thanks for the ideas on the pictures. I was able to use Microsoft photo edit. These computers are so complicated.

Gary

[JohnM]

Go Gary Go!

Looks like you have been bitten by the Maple Bug.

Have a great season!

[SapSuckers]

What a great looking rig!!!! Now is the time to do the test boils and get all the nicks out. I need to get on my father in law now so we are ready to boil at the first run.

[Father & Son]

Every sugarbush needs a B.A.T. mobile or something similar. Great pics.

Jim

[Dennis H.]

Thats a great looking setup you got, I like the hood setup it gives me some ideas too.

I too got biten by the maple sugarin bug this year and if I end up with little or no syrup that will be ok I had a blast building my evap and there will always be next yr.

Good luck with the new setup.

[Sugarmaker]

Gary,
Pictures turned out nice! Great job on the arch. You wont have any problem making 4-5-gallons in 2008! Test boil must have been good, you should be all set:) I like the BAT!

Chris

[Maplewalnut]

Gary,

great looking ride. The BAT mobile is another fine example of how PA sugarers are much more ingenius than traditional New Englanders! LOL

Where exactly is Polk?

Mike

[Cardigan99]

Way to go Gary! Great set up on the hood. Let us know what the GPH turns out to be.

Todd

[royalmaple]

We "northerners" just won't show you all our tricks. Gotta keep the real secrets hidden you know.

I have a degree in afro-engineering. And it didn't come in the mail from Sally Struthers.

Not to hi-jack another thread. Your homemade rig looks nice. One thing you guys can do before you upload your pictures is rotate them, so they are orientated correctly. Thank god I use a lap top in the house, it's easier to flip around upside down and inverted. Someone on an old dinasaur might throw their back out trying to twist and turn to admire your work.

[Jim Brown]

Gary; Nice looking set up looking forward to coming over and seeing it!

Jim

[jemsklein]

looks good you are going to have lots of fun with that. What is the gph work out to be and do you have any flues or is it all flat

[Gary R]

Maplewalnut, Polk is in western PA, a few miles west of Franklin, about half way between Pittsburgh and Erie.
Royalmaple, I had to ask others how to upload pictures. Oreinting them is asking a lot from me as I am computer illiterate.
jemsklein, the pan is flat. It has 3 sections. I modeled it after a half pint. I don't know what the gph is. I only did 1 test boil. I will probably determine it during the season. The way I look at it, it is what it is. I didn't have any leaks from the arch, pan, stacks and the sugar shack wasn't a sauna. I think it will be ok. I know I will have a lot of proccess to figure out once I start hauling sap.
By the way my engineering skills include using my skid steer to bend the sides of my pan while the tractor was parked on it. The stainless I have is 18 ga. (man is that stuff tough). It worked ok but I have 2 sources of free sheetmetal working that I should have used. Good luck on everyones projects!

Gary

[802maple]

Don't worry about Old Royal, I'm surprised he got that statement politically correct and all. He was probably talking about me as I am still trying to get the rope hanging from the ceiling off my left leg after looking at the pictures. LOL
Looks like a hell of a job and good luck this spring

[Sugarmaker]

GaryR,
Would have loved to have been there for the hood bending with the skid steer:)

Chris

[jemsklein]

well when my dad and i made are evaporator we used the log splitter to bend the angle iron for the top of the oil tank

[Dave Y]

GaryR
Nice looking set up.you are going to have a ball. I spent the day on sat. hunting by Polk. I i would have know where you are at i would have stopped. My helpers folk live up Valley Rd. we were hunting on there property.

[Jim Brown]

Dave Y. See you next week in Blooming Valley and by the way I live about 1 1/2 miles from Valley Road on the Polk cut off
See you then

Jim

[Gary R]

Jemsklein, that would have been something to see. I would have had to been "drinkin' and thinkin'" to come up with that. My father (who has the most tools) bent me my preheater pan. He has an arbor press. He used heavy pieces of angle iron in the press where the bend needed made. It did work well. By the way the BAT mobile was originally built to haul tree stands and tools for the woods. It's an automatic so it will be easier than the tractor for collecting. I'm getting to old and lazy to be climing on and off all the time. PA guy's, I had info sent from Laura Dengler about Blooming Valley. I would like to meet a bunch of you. I not sure what occurs there. I am looking for informal meet and learn. I wouldn't want to interferr with a business meeting.
Gary

[jemsklein]

gary r what is the make of the tractor you used in that pic it looks alot mine

[Gary R]

Ford 4000. About 1970. It runs great and I it has the right amount of power for me. I skid a few logs and maintain about 3 acres of food plots.

[Gary R]

Well first year boiling and my homemade rig did good. I could boil up to 9 gal. an hour and keep the back of the pan boiling as long as you paid attention to the fire.

Now I'm looking to improve efficeincy. First on the list is to lose weight. Me and the arch:) . My initial design had too much space under the pan in the flue area. My flue area was also completely lined with 2" fire brick. The cool down takes hours. I am going to re-"pan" my flue area off and only use the ceramic blanket in that area. Next, I will make a new pan. My original SS I had allowed my to only have an 18" wide pan. I have a new piece of SS in which I can make a 24" wide pan. This gives me 2 more square feet of evaporation area. Pan gasket has been a big problem. My bends weren't real tight and I used braided rope gasket. It detiriorated after a couple of firings and I have soot everywhere. I have a lot of ceramic left over and will use that on a wider rail that the pan sits on. I take my pan off after almost every firing to drain and clean. This disturbs the gasket. Help here would be great. My biggest need of help is my preheater setup. I attached a picture to show how it looks. It works great, but I have to manual pour buckets into the pan. Flow is controlled by the needle valve. I would like to go to a raised storage tank outside so I can pump to the tank and gravity feed to the preheater/evaporator. It doesn't make sense to feed sap to this peheater and the preheater gets in the way when I drain or clean the pan. All idea's on this would be appreciated. Preheat the same? preheat around stack? preheat under hood?

Thanks to all, it's been a great year!

[Gary R]

Have started modifications. I decided not to go with a raised storage tank just yet. Changes to take brick out are done. Now only have 2" between bottom of pan and top of blanket in flue area. New pan is already cut. Size will be 24x54. 3 square feet bigger than my old one. Wife works at a large mechanical contractor. Their sheet metal foreman has said he would bend the pan and even TIG weld it for me!:) I had better make extra gift syrup next year. Adding a supercharger. I was given a 6" exhaust fan. Not sure what the cfm is but I sure it will do. One of my pictures here shows the tubing in the fire box. It's 5, 1 1/2" square tubing, 1/8" wall, stainless steel. I welded a stainless box (plenum) on the front of it. I will connect the pipe from the blower (mounted outside) to the plenum. I need to burn holes in the top of the tubes yet. I will also use 1" solid steel bars on top of and perpendicular to the blower tubes for coals to rest on.

Another picture shows my smoke exhaust plenum / preheater holder. Same as the old but a little wider to collect heat from entire width of pan.

Any suggestions please help now! I'm well along on this project.

[JFH51]

Looks like your project is coming along. I run the same type of preheater tank on my homemade set up. What I do is to use a water flow meter (gallons/hour) and a ball valve to adjust the flow into the preheater tank. I then overflow from the top of the preheater tank into the evaporator pan. Doing this gives me a nice constant thru put in the preheater which maximizes
the heating. I run from 190 deg to boiling from the preheater. The flowmeter was $45 from McMaster Carr.

[Gary R]

I like the idea of the flow meter. Easy way to tell how much sap is proccessed. At this time I'm not planning on having a raised storage tank to drain into preheater. I hand carry the buckets into the shack and dump into the preheater. Preheat temp does take a dive when I dump a few gallons into it. Still on the fence as to how far to take this fun!

Thanks

[Valley View Sugarhouse]

I have a float box and float from a old pan if you are interested... email me andysai@verizon.net

Andy

[SeanD]

Gary, I also carry buckets of sap to the evaporator by hand, but this year I put a spigot in the bottom of a five-gallon bucket and set it up on a couple of blocks next to the preheater and let it dribble in. (Some guys hang it above the preheater in their house, but I'm outside.) I'm still doing the same amount of work lugging and pouring sap, but the preheater temp stays a little more constant.

Sean

[Sugarmaker]

Gary,
Glad to see you are into the expansion project.:) New pan will work nice!

Chris

[RileySugarbush]

You might get better rates and efficiency if you raised the flue insulation for a 1" gap. That should be plenty of flow area, the same as a 6" diameter stack, especially if you add the forced draft.

[Gary R]

Hi guy's. Been away at camp for 4 day's. Had to replace some floor's. No phone or internet up in the forest.

If I go to an over head storage I'd probably go to a float system. For now I adjust a needle valve for sap depth. It works pretty good since I don't have a lot of things going on at once.

Riley Sugarbush, I'm glad to hear from you. My actual exhaust stack I changed from 6" to 8". So, I went for 2" under my pan to match (about) the square inches of both. Forced air fan just happened to come in the 6" dia.

For a hood, I'm thinking of buying a sheet of aluminum. Bending it to look like the canvas on a covered wagon (couldn't think of how to explain it). The front of it would have some of the bottom sides removed so you could see and test for syrup in the front section. Any thoughts on that idea?

Chris, I rsvp'd for the picnic next weekend. I'll be there hoping to absorb some more knowledge from you guy's.

Thanks all,

[Sugarmaker]

GaryR,
See you there!

[Gary R]

Progress has been made on the overhaul of the rig. Supercharger is all plumbed in and on a fan speed control switch. In the picture of the grate you can see I insulated the door and pan gasket is in place. For the smoke stack, I insulated the pipe with ceramic and made a pipe to go over that. That is in the hole that penetrates the side of the building. Please don't laugh too hard at my welding. I figured it out that it works much better if you turn the gas on. My stainless for the new pan is at the fab shop. Looking forward to getting it in place. I've started on the hood. I bought a sheet of aluminum.

Question. My last setup I had a 6" steam stack. It worked great. My boiling rate should increase to about 15gph. Will 6" still do or should I go bigger?

Thanks

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

For 15 gph, 6" should be enough as long as you have a drip channel around the outside of the hood to catch the condensate from the hood walls and a tray for the preheater if you have one.

[Haynes Forest Products]

GaryR
I made my hood for my 3x10 and have a 14"stack and i get a nice draft with the syrup pan side open. I have a open sided hood that covers the sap pans and that allows viewing. Thats what keeps us entertained during boiling.
My hood starts out in a drip edge and goes stright up about 6" then 45sback about a 12" and that leaves about 12" flat surface on top. Hoods dont have to be big to work well. I have 4 hole along the flue pan for checking sap and defoming and when I open them up I get a good draw of the steam so I dont cook my face. I can lift my hood off the cooker by myself so keep the the thing light.

[maple flats]

My hood is somewhat heavy but mostly bulky. I have a 3x8 evap with a 3x6 flues pan totally covered by the hood and about a 20" extension over the syrup pan that is about 14" above the syrup pan. I can raise it with one hand (even my 7 yr old grand daughter can) because I ran a steel cable from each corner up to a pulley and all f are pulled at once by a hand winch to lift it. I even made my 2 steam pipes telescoping by using 12" on the hood and hung from the trusses are 2 10" pipes that go down into the 12's. I can raise my hood about 2' before I run out of travel. I set the pulleys mentioned by using a laser level for plumb (a plumb bob would also work) and when I lower the hood with the winch it neatly sets right back in place.

[Gary R]

Thanks for the comments guy's. I had already started on the hood. The stainless that I have for my pan has a 1" wide lip on the edge. This will make the pan more rigid and give me something to hold if I lift it. So, I bent a 1" wide by 1" tall gutter into both sides of the hood. The hood will sit right on the lip of the pan. The sides of the hood go verticle for 10" then it is a dome for the top (no flat surfaces). It looks like a covered wagon. The back will be enclosed except for an opening for the preheater outlet to enter the pan. The front will be mostly open so I can see what's going on in there. If I ever get to the point of a head tank I'll probably make a preheater that goes in the hood. It looks like the way to go. I like the telescopic pipes and the way to lift the hood. But I have a small rig and my ceiling in the trailer is only 7'6". I don't have room to lift the hood. I'm planning on putting a draw band on the top of the hood and just remove the hood when I want to clean the pan. I guess I'll try the 6" pipe since that's what's through the roof right now.

I can't wait to light a fire and test it out!

[Gary R]

Finally got my pan back. I did weld the dividers solid as recommended. Finished the hood yesterday. All I need to do is clean the arch up. I spilled some syrup down the front last season:-( . Then it's time to test fire:) . I also installed a feed line so that I can pump the sap to the preheater instead of hand carrying all the sap. Now I need to decide if I'll get a head tank mounted off the roof and tounge of the trailer. Looking forward to Feburary.

[WF MASON]

Gary any thought on moving your drawoff from the front of the pan to the side for convence.

[Dennis H.]

Looking good Gary, let us know how the hood works. That would be a nice addition to my evap also.

[Gary R]

WF - That is a great idea. The draw off is in and I don't see it being moved. Some times I go into these things with blinders on:( . With the increased boiling capacity, I should be drawing off a few time each boil. On the side I could have left a pot for collection and not have to worry about moving it when I have to fire. Next time I'll get it right. Thanks though.

Dennis - If your inside I don't know how you could do without. No drips from the ceiling. I needed a light weight hood so I could remove it to clean the pans. Aluminum was the ticket. I don't know anything about it. There are all kinds of grades and then no gauges but just thickness. I ended up buy a 4X10 sheet of 3003 grade, .032" thick. It cost me $111.30 from a fab shop. I tried a large steel supply company, they took my info twice and never called me back. I don't have a brake. Bent everthing over other pieces of steel. Pop riveted any joints. It is a little bigger than I wanted, but I have room for one of those fancy copper tube preheater's:) Some day.

Thanks for you guy's help. I think I'm having a test fire party during my wife's birthday party in 2 1/2 weeks. She's thrilled;)

[peacemaker]

gary why cant u elbow it so it pours of the side ??

[Gary R]

That is probably what I will do. I filter off that outlet with a cone prefilter. Being that close to the arch tends to make me get the arch sticky when I remove the filter.

Thanks

[Pete S]

Gary,

Thanks so much for sharing information and photos of your rig.

I JUST picked up a SWEET 275 gallon tank in hopes of someday (soon) creating a better rig than what we have now. Currently our little rig does about 2.5 gph.........like watching paint dry!

Problem though is that now I'm having trouble sleeping at night as the gears keep awn turning!

VERY impressed with your fabrication work utilizing what you have.

Couldn't tell from the photos,...........does your "arch" ramp up?.............or is it simply installed "flat" going toward the stack?

Keep awn givin'er!

Thanks!
Pete

[Uncle Tucker]

Pete,
Jeff D just picked up a 275 gallon tank. He and I will be cutting that thing up as soon as he gets all the supplies. I think we will take pictures so you can how easy or hard it’s going to bee. If you have any suggestions let us know.
Thanks!

p.s. we already have a leave blower and fire bricks.

[Pete S]

I can hardly wait to see how this thing comes together!

Too bad you folks are a bit too far to the east to just stop awn by and check things out.

I probably shouldn't advertize this too much, but I got mine [275 gallon tank] near home FREE, and there is another setting there for the taking.

I'll be standing by!!

Pete

[Gary R]

Pete, the back of the arch ramps up. The fire box is about 24" deep. The back of it goes straight up. It ramps from 6" of space from the insulation to the bottom of the pan, to 2" space. The 2"X24" wide is about the same area as the 8" round smoke stack. Some of the expierienced guys here might be able to tell you if ramped is good or not. I don't know. I just thought it would give the fire an easier path to get moving towards the stack. If I have boil problems in the back of the pan I would put some more blanket to take up space under the pan or more draft which I think I'll be fine with the blower.

Uncle Tucker, a leave blower? It might blow the fire out:)

[Uncle Tucker]

No, I put it in my 2x6 last year and that thing cranked. the flue pan would splash sap at your face. the fire was white hot when I opened the door. not bad for $25, but loud.

[RickinFarmington]

Woe is me. Just got my two SS sink pans back from the welder who welded up the holes in the bottom of the pans. The pans were both warped like an old cookie sheet. Welder says the warping is a byproduct of welding a circle in the middle of a sheet of steel. He told me that I could restretch the metal by beating on the the weld and area around it. It is off to the anvil I go today.

That being said, and sucess is not on my side, an option for me is to obtain a used 2x4 pan to use in conjunction with my barrel arch. Now for my questiion: What would be the effect of having the 2x4 pan over hang the 19x36 inch opening of my arch? don't think it would make much sense to cut down a 2x4 pan would it? Getting up against the wall in the budget department with completion of a new sugar house.

thanks, Rick

[TapME]

Rick, and way that you cane extend the barrel in the back and get the pan to fit? Other than that I would think that the pan overhanging would not boil well if at all. It may simmer and steam but that would be slow. The other thought is just because it is warped doesn't mean you can't use it. Just an opinion

[RickinFarmington]

Well, the process of getting my pans unwarped went very well. Only took 15 minutes per pan. I was amazed. So it is off to the test boil.

Soldered up a siphon devise to try and keep the two pans auto feeding. Worked well in the test setup with water not boiling, but we will see. Any one have a sucess story in doing this?

This site is wondeful for the first timer. Thanks a lot for all the help.

Now if I could just figure out how to get a deer up here in the Maine woods, I will be a happy camper. Coming from Virginia where it is easy to shoot two a day, it is a bit different up here.

Rick

[Sugarmaker]

As for pans hanging over.
A Local Sugar maker made hundreds of gallons of syrup on a 40 inch pan setting on a 3 foot wide arch. Not sure how well that area boiled but it did not slow him down much.

Gary nice job on the pan and hood. More surface area YES!

Regards,
Chris

[Jeff D]

Pete, the back of the arch ramps up. The fire box is about 24" deep. The back of it goes straight up. It ramps from 6" of space from the insulation to the bottom of the pan, to 2" space. The 2"X24" wide is about the same area as the 8" round smoke stack. Some of the expierienced guys here might be able to tell you if ramped is good or not. I don't know. I just thought it would give the fire an easier path to get moving towards the stack. If I have boil problems in the back of the pan I would put some more blanket to take up space under the pan or more draft which I think I'll be fine with the blower.

Uncle Tucker, a leave blower? It might blow the fire out:)

Hello Gary R,

What a nice rig you have created. I am in the very beginning stages of building my oil tank rig and had a few questions for you:

1. What did you use to cut the top off and if was difficult or not?
2. How did you deal with the radius at the bottom of the tank, is it flat or round?
3. I noticed you did not slope the back of the fire box up to the bottom of the pan, would you have done this different or perhaps it does not matter in terms of heat getting to the back of the pan?
4. Would you have any suggestions on something you may have done differently.

Can't wait to get started, just waiting for supplies and then fabrication will begin. Time is tickin closer to maple season and the rig must be finished in time.

Thanks, Jeff D

[Gary R]

Jeff D,

Season's getting close. I hope to tap in early Feb. down here.

I cut the tank with a sawzall. That was dangerous. There are many post's on here about the hazard's of explosion. Other guy's have purged with CO2 or filled with water. Better to be safe than sorry. The radius is only under the fire box. I just lined with insulation and stacked the bricks. The bricks go all the way up and support the rail that holds the pan. The grate spans the radius (with support underneath). The back 2/3 of the arch is slopped. So the fire is forced up to the pan. Check some of my earlier pictures and you may see it better. As far as doing things different, I don't know. Last year's pan was smaller and I used what I had at the time. I think in this hobby, things will evolve ever year until a person get's to where they want to grow to. I'm not sure where that is for me. I'd think on how far you want to go and try build for that. That way you aren't rebuilding all the time. I seen some guy's take the top half that your going to cut off and add it to the back end of the big section and then you have a 2x8 evaporator:) Keep reading all the old post's. Everything I did, I got off of here.

Good luck!

[Jeff D]

Jeff D,

Season's getting close. I hope to tap in early Feb. down here.

I cut the tank with a sawzall. That was dangerous. There are many post's on here about the hazard's of explosion. Other guy's have purged with CO2 or filled with water. Better to be safe than sorry. The radius is only under the fire box. I just lined with insulation and stacked the bricks. The bricks go all the way up and support the rail that holds the pan. The grate spans the radius (with support underneath). The back 2/3 of the arch is slopped. So the fire is forced up to the pan. Check some of my earlier pictures and you may see it better. As far as doing things different, I don't know. Last year's pan was smaller and I used what I had at the time. I think in this hobby, things will evolve ever year until a person get's to where they want to grow to. I'm not sure where that is for me. I'd think on how far you want to go and try build for that. That way you aren't rebuilding all the time. I seen some guy's take the top half that your going to cut off and add it to the back end of the big section and then you have a 2x8 evaporator:) Keep reading all the old post's. Everything I did, I got off of here.

Good luck!

Gary,

Thanks for the input, I have been reading the old posts and there is alot of good info to be found. Hope to get started build my rig soon before time runs out.

Happy Surgarin!

[Gary R]

Time for an update. A few pages back are some of the modifications I made for last season. All worked will except the grate. After a few boils the stainless manifold would clog with ash, reducing the air flow. My boil rate went from almost 15gph to working hard to keep 12gph. I had no way of cleaning the manifold. One of these years I'll get this right:lol: .

This year I am adding air under/over fire, fire brick grate, and parallel flow preheater. The grate is mostly done. The drilling was easy. I will fill some cracks with ceramic blanket and top of some areas with refractory mortor. Thanks 802 Maple and WV Mapler. The main portion of the the preheater I did last night. I will still need to add vent, valves, drip channel and mount to hold it under the hood.

I'll post some more pictures as I progress.

[Jim Brown]

Hey Gary; Nice looking job!
Jim

[BarrelBoiler]

nice looking prehaeater. questions... how big is your fire box? how well does your smokebox warmer work? did you leave an air space between the syrup pan and the smoke box wall? my son wants to do something like that when weconstrut our tank arch. thanks

[Gary R]

Barrelboiler, the fire box is only 20"X20". The bricks fit just right. I go from full bricks to half bricks on the top row. This allows the pan to be supported by only 1" on each side. The box that held my preheater was touching the pan. The pan is supported by a piece of angle iron with blanket to seal the bottom of the pan. The box actually went between the verticle part of the angle iron and the pan. Occasionaly some sap or foam would splash on the back of the pan. It would burn onto the pan but it was a very little bit. I just cleaned it off when I was cleaning the pan between boils.

[Gary R]

Worked all day to make the air over manifold. I wish I had 2" tubing. I only had 1 1/2". I did turn on the blower and I have air flow. The manifold goes all the way around the firebox. I had to cut alot of firebrick. I'm usong a diamond wheel on an angle grinder. Cutting brick that were in the firebox is difficult. I had some new brick and it cuts easy. I will now have to make a new stack base.

[lpakiz]

Gary,
I made something like that for my home made arch. Works OK but there is room for improvement.
I saw the term "Lazy Air" on this site and I think it applies to my design. My improvement for next year is to add small tubes about 2-3 inches long by 1/2 inch diameter to the manifolds to make focused streams or jets of air rather than lazy air. Hopefully these tubes will restrick air until back pressure forms these jets. I had thought that just holes alone would make the turbulance I wanted, but not so. The lazy air does make my wood burn faster and hotter, but I think more turbulance will make more complete combustion in addition to the hotter fire.
Good Luck!
Larry

[Gary R]

I remember that lesson from 802 Maple. I believe lazy air was more of a result of blower type and ducting restrictions. I feel air from all the holes. Hopefully by July I will be able to test fire. If I need noozles they will be easy to add.

Good luck with your modifications!

[Dennis H.]

Gary what size blower are you using with that setup? How many CFM's.
Is there 2 seperate blowers, 1 for the over air and 1 for under the grates air? Or are you using just one for both.

[Sugarmaker]

Gary,
You have put a lot of work into the air over fire on your rig.
I read some of the notes by 802 maple and priced the high volume blower he recommended at about $500.00.
I would have to do a lot of work to add this feature to the old 3 x 10. Seems to make a lot of sense to get improved combustion.
Some thoughts on a conversion to air over fire
- take out top row of fire brick.
- buy square steel tubing and the 3/8 pipes for nozzles too
- Figure out where the tubing has to enter the fire box???? Ideas here??
- Figure out where a large blower could be 'cleanly' mounted to minimize noise, but be close.
- Find a suitable blower.
- rough fab the air tube system from the blower to the fire box.
- drill and weld in the nozzles
- cover the square air tubes with heat shield material.

What have I forgotten? Probably a lot of stuff. Looks like about a $800 -$1000 project and several days of work.

But, could save fairly large amounts of wood during boiling.

Regards,
Chris

[Gary R]

Dennis, I have no idea how many cfm's. The blower is used and it feeds both over and under. I am going to damper the under and use wall control if needed. In the 6" pipe that feeds the upper, I have a 3" pipe cut into the elbow. the 3" feeds the under.

Chris, sounds like you have the idea! If you could find a good used blower (from work? free) you could probably do it for $200. I entered the manifold right under the ramp at the back of the firebox. Maybe you could come down when I test fire?

I have not followed 802's and Univ. Vermont instructions to a "T". I'm trying to save some money and using stuff I have. I currently fire every 6 minutes. If I can extend that to 15-20 minutes, I would call it sucsessful.

[Gary R]

OK guys, I know I've been taking to many short cuts. I came up with some stainless tubing. I cut them 2" long. They have an ID just over 3/8". Pointed down about 10 degrees. 27 of them total.

Larry, thanks for leading me to do it.:)

[lpakiz]

Gary,
Now that's how I thought mine should look like. I think I need a blower that will "over-supply" the manifold to create pressure and "focused jets" of air into the flames.
Looks good...
Larry

[Dennis H.]

Very cool Gary!!!:cool:

Will the square tubing sit on top of the fire bricks or will it be on the outside with holes drilled thru for the tubes?

[Gary R]

The square tubing will sit on top of the fire brick. I have another row of brick that is only 2" high on top of the tubing. My pan rail sits on top of that and also holds the brick from falling. I had to do it that way so that I still have just under 2" of flue area below the back half of my pan.

In case my current blower does not work well enough, I have a backup. This blower came off of a sterilizer that I work on. We use it to "suck" up any sterilant gases that could leak from the sterilizer. These things really crank. The impeller is cast aluminum. There are pretty tight clearances from the impeller to the housing.

[lpakiz]

Gary,
Nice lookin' blower. Better weld them nipples on real good--wouldn't want them shooting around inside the arch like bottle rockets.....

[Gary R]

I've got my preheater mounted and plumbed. It can be removed by removing 2 screws and disconnecting a hose. In the pictures you can see a vent to prevent vapor lock. I used a drain cock to drain the preheater so it does not freeze. The needle valve controls the flow. You can see a piece of vinyl tubing that is in the corner of the pan. This is used to flood my pan on start up and to fill my OH S*!T bucket. A must have. I've been known to daydream and burn my pans. My ash drawer is now air tight and I used some refractory cement to seal and protect where I put wood into the fire box. I have not changed my stack base. I just welded a piece of stainless over the hole in it.

My last thing to do is mount the gutters under the preheater. I have all the aluminum bent. I am thinking of soldering the gutters at each end to a gutter that will direct the condensate out to a bucket. I do not know if soldering will work. Any help on the soldering? Thanks!

[Dennis H.]

Very nice preheater. I like the idea of the OH-crap bucket, why not have a ball valve that opens directly into the pan instead?? Just one less thing sitting around the evap to stumble over.

Solder Aluminum?? I don't think you can do that. You could mig weld it.

Thanks for posting the pics though, I am working on plans to add a hood and preheater also and watching what you are doing is helping me alot.

[Gary R]

Dennis,

The way I did it, I can fill the evaporator or the bucket. The short hose just hangs near the back wall. I collect my sap into a 55 gal. drum and pump it into a 55 gal. head tank. I have no way to just carry a bucket into the sugarhouse. Also, I've made numerous trips to the hardware store. I have the stainless and aluminum lying around. I still have about $80 in the preheater.

To MIG weld you need a spool gun. I don't have one and there about $250. I checked the web. You can solder. Need special flux. I'm thinking I may JB weld it?:rolleyes:

[KenWP]

You can braze it also. We used to weld aluminium with a stick welder but I haven't had a welder that would do it for many many years.
No matter how many parts a person has there's allways one part missing. Usually the most expensive one.

[Dennis H.]

Gary for what I understand you do not NEED a spool feeder to mig alum.
It is very helpful but not needed.

For what I know is that if you run heavier alum wire like .035 you shouldn't have a problem feeding the wire thru the regular handle. Now it you have to run the smaller wire .030 then you may run into problems with the wire not being pushed thru and just balling up right after the drive rollers.

[Gary R]

Need 100% Argon also. My father tried welding alum. a few months ago. It did not work for him with a regular gun. But, he was trying to stich sheets together. I only need 14 tacks and I'll be seeing him tomorrow. I'll ask him to bring the gas and wire along. What the heck, it's his welder anyways:) . Thanks Dennis.

[KenWP]

Bring the welder over here next I need to weld up a few things. I tried soldering SS and so far no go all it does is ball up on me.

[Haynes Forest Products]

Google ALUMALOY and check out the product. They have videos on how to do it

[Dennis H.]

Sorry I did forget to mention the argon gas. If your dad has the gas and the wire then you won't be out anything if you at least give it a try.

Like I said if you run thicker wire you should have better luck with the wire feeding thru the line up to the handle.

[Dennis H.]

Here is a few links that I found for you to look at if you like.

Mig Welding Aluminum (http://www.lincolnelectric.com/knowledge/articles/content/compactmig.asp)

Mig Welding Aluminum (http://www.millerwelds.com/education/articles/articles10.html)

[Gary R]

Dennis,

Thanks for those links. I hope to be welding like an amature soon:lol:

Ken,

Sorry, I have all my vacation scheduled. Your welcome to bring stuff down here though.

[Gary R]

I welded the aluminum gutter for my preheater tonight. I am a poor welder to begin with. They are the worst looking welds I've ever seen. So bad I am not posting pictures. It is solid though.

I need to clean things up and test fire one of these weekends :)

[KenWP]

You should see my solder work then. I just can't make it look good on the one part I am soldering. But the soldering I am doing to tin the flare on the drop tubes is working out well so not all is bad. I had contact with one of the maple suppliers today about the flux they have and their flux is made to be used with a hot iron to join two peices of SS. Have no idea how you could get the metal hot enough with a iron to melt the solder. I have one of the irons but I would have to heat it in a wood fire I suppose to get it hot enough to use it.

[Dennis H.]

come on Gary post some pics!:lol:
We won't pick to baddly:lol:

[Gary R]

OK Dennis, you win. I hope there small enough.

.....I heard that;)

The one picture is of the port I added for a temperature probe. The probe pictured I ordered from the Maple Guy's. I believe they have .5% accuracy. I also use a cheap $20 probe bought locally. But they only have 2% accuracy. Anyway I used to have a bracket that held the cheap probes over the pan so I can check temperature. The problem with that is it gets too hot over the pan. I left one of the probe on the bracket too long last year and ruined it. Fortunatly I had a back up. It sucks to be boiling and not know where your temp. is at.

[Ahnohta]

You should see my solder work then. I just can't make it look good on the one part I am soldering. But the soldering I am doing to tin the flare on the drop tubes is working out well so not all is bad. I had contact with one of the maple suppliers today about the flux they have and their flux is made to be used with a hot iron to join two peices of SS. Have no idea how you could get the metal hot enough with a iron to melt the solder. I have one of the irons but I would have to heat it in a wood fire I suppose to get it hot enough to use it.

Ken

Get a hold of a roofer that has soldered sheet metal roofing "Flat Pan" roofing. They use soldering irons on the flat metal. The irons are heated in a small propane stove/forge type device. Then when hot, held on the sheet metal w/ flux already applied then they solder the seams. They make it look easy. In talking to them they will give you some very good pointers. It is an art. Many older homes w/ low pitched front porch roofs were done in Flat Pan sheet metal roofing. They may even teach you hands on for trade in some good old fashion Pure Maple Syrup.

DP

[Gary R]

I had my test boil today:) 1 hour after start up, I took note of everything. 16 gal. per hour. There is room to improve also.

First, the condensate comes off the gutters in slugs. Some of it shoots over the gutter that directs it out to a bucket and back into the pan. I am going to drill a hole near the end of the gutters.

Also, I had to fire hard, every 8 minutes, to keep a full boil in the back pan section. My preheat temp was only 135deg. I closed my flapper on my steam stack about 2/3 of the way. The preheat temp. went right up to 150deg. The boil lasted longer in the back pan. I realize now that putting 16 gal. an hour of 135deg. water in the back pan would take alot of heat to keep a boil. I will put a damper in the steam stack so that I can increase my preheat temp.

Both of these ideas were given to me by Sugarmaker. We were talking about this project sometime before I started it. Thank you Chris for all your experience.

I may also reduce the space some more under the flue area. I also need to seal the door better. I get a bit of smoke out of it now and you can't open the door with the blower on. If anyone has any more ideas I'd like to hear them. I think with a few minor tweaks, I'll have a good running 2X4 1/2 flat pan.

Oh yea, it was hot in the sugarhouse today:lol:

[Dennis H.]

That is some great numbers that you are getting out of that evap.

What were you getting gals/hr before the mods? just curious to know what your % of increase is.

I also have a hood and preheater in the planning stages and I am wondering what to expect.

Did you do the temp probe bung fitting your self? What fittings and sizes did you use. I like it and might have to also do that.

[Gary R]

I'm thinking the preheater alone is giving me 15% increase. I had a hood and air under the fire last year. Last year to keep a boil in the back of the pan I had to have flames and black smoke shooting out my stack. My old grate was plugging up, so after a few boils I couldn't maintain but 12-13 gph. The new grate with a raised floor can be cleaned if needed. I think the key is to get my preheat temp. higher. Then I won't have to fire so hard. I'll use less wood.

I put in the temp. probe port. The probe from the Maple Guy's has a 1/4"npt thread X comp. fitting. I bought a 1/4" 304 stainless coupling. Drilled a hole in the pan and used a die grinder to make the hole bigger and oval. I held the coupling at the angle I wanted and welded.

Start a thread so we can follow your progress

[3rdgen.maple]

Gary I think you are firing it just right now. I fire on average every six minutes. I think just about anyone who fires with wood is probably firing every 5 to 10 minutes. Alot of maple producers have egg timers that they set and fire when it dings. I do however think you should not be losing your boil in the back pan. I would check the distance between the bottom of the arch and your back pan. I was also wondering how well your arch is insulated. And I was curious what the steam temperature is at your preheater height? I would think that if it is alot higher than the temp of the sap in the preheater than the flow rate going through the preheater is too fast, so that means either more pipe to allow more preheat time. Just some ideas for you.

[vermaple]

And I was curious what the steam temperature is at your preheater height? I would think that if it is alot higher than the temp of the sap in the preheater than the flow rate going through the preheater is too fast, so that means either more pipe to allow more preheat time. Just some ideas for you.

Gary,

I think 3rdgen is right on the time in the preheater. My thought on this is that with all piping in the preheater the same size and the inlet and outlet on the same side you are getting some short circuiting along the side of the inlet/outlet. Ideally the inlet ought to be from the bottom on the low end and the outlet from the top on the high end. Generally the end manifolds are made with larger piping. Maybe you could easily change the inlet pipe to the opposite side of the preheater.

Also close the steam stack damper until air doesn't draw in when you open a door on the hood. Be careful that you don't pressurize the pan or all kinds of bad things can happen.
vermaple

[Gary R]

Guy's, thanks for your feedback.

3rdgen. I have the timer on the wall:) . I was firing every 6 min. Since going to air over, I am hoping to extend that. Force 5 claims 45 min. firing. I'm hoping to get 15 min. Everything, including the door has 1",8lb., 2300deg. blanket. I can't recall the distance under my pan. I think it's at least 1 1/2". My preheater is 38" long over a 54" pan. I don't think it could be much longer or wider. However, your going through the preheater too fast and how Vermaple explained it sounds like the problem. The sap short circuiting in the preheater. My inlet and outlet are on the same side. I have the preheater level. The far tubes may not be carrying sap. Resoldering the fittings is not too hard. I'm much better with copper than aluminum:lol: But, I don't have room on the other side of the evaporator to make my flow adjustments. I could move the needle valve up near the wall. Could I tip the preheater a bit to force the sap to the far end?

Thank you both for your help.

[Gary R]

I did 4 modifications.

Damper in steam stack, added holes to the end of preheater gutters, added 1" of blanket under rear 1/3 of pan, changed preheater outlet so that sap has to come out of the top of the the upper manifold.

It sucked! I could barely get a boil in the back of the pan. I figured it had to be the blanket. Thankfully my good neighbor, Jim Brown stopped by. We decided to lift the pan and remove the blanket. It worked great. Full boil in the pan. The fire is great. When you turn off the blower to fire you see flame shooting out the nozzles on the air over manifold. I can not increase the distance between the pan and the blanket without major modifications. Now I wonder what could the boil be like with more space to get the heat towards the back?

Preheat temperature is only 160+ deg. My hood is not tight with a few openings as it covers the front pan also. I need to see inside to see how things are going. If you had an external float, you could keep this closed and have a higher preheat.

[3rdgen.maple]

Gary soumds like you are making improvements. I am however a little confused about you wanting to have a bigger opening under your back pan. I always thought you wanted the heat as close to the bottom of the pan therefore having minimal space between the pan and arch floor. The right size stack will suck that heat right to that back pan. I have less than 1 in space under my flues and it takes very little effort to get that flue pan to a rolling boil from one end to the other. Now when I had a flat pan setup I filled the back of the arch right full of sand within 2 inches to get it to boil better. The way my grandfather had it set up there was like 8 inches and the back 2 pans never boiled. Guess I should mention there were 4 flat pans and a finishing pan on the arch. I am just wondering if your stack diameter is choking the heat a little on you. 160 degrees on your preheater sound pretty good compared to the 130's you got before. I think it is easier to get to say 130 then it takes alot more effort and inginuity to get every gegree higher. Good job man sounds like you are having fun. You might want to consider some firebrick as well atleast split brick. It is about half the price at a concrete yard, than it is from a maple supplier. It helps protect your blanket and it retains alot of heat as a bonus.

[Sugarmaker]

Gary R
The preheater is working! but like others said may need a few tweeks to improve, if you want. I agree that the cold sap should go in one corner and the hot sap should come out the opposite upper corner. Maybe you can run the return line back to the bottom and across to your hood outlet port. Or just drop down and back across to the other side of the hood?

The drip tray system looks real nice. I like the use of stainless for the "v" rather than the aluminum I used.

The damper in the stack, I think is a must and should be able to trap as much steam as possible under the hood. I close my damper until steam starts to come out under the hood and then open it until the steam coming out the cracks in the hood is minimal.
I get 200 deg sap from my preheater.
I don't have a clue what the efficiency improvement is? I hear 10 to 15%. Its got to be better than cold sap going into the boiling pan.
I think I have about a 4-5 inch incline in my 4 foot preheater.
Nice job welding in the port for the probe.

Regards,
Chris

[vermaple]

Gary,
I'm having a little trouble visualizing your set up, but it seems like you are using a flat pan. If that is the case you must leave area (cross sectional) under the pan for exaust of smoke. As an example if your rig is 24"wide with a 7" stack 38+ sq in, you should have about 1.75"-2.0" under the pan. The under pan opening needs to be measured inside the arch.
It sounds like you may have dampered your fire to much with the blanket in. Trial and error is what it takes to find what works best.:)

The 160 degrees in the preheater may be about as good as you can get without a tight hood. Thats much better than 40 degrees. Looking the pictures of your preheater, it doesn't look like you have a vent in it. Without a vent a preheater will vapor lock from gases released from sap. A vent tube from the higher manifold higher than the highest level of sap in your storage tank with an open container on the end of the tube. Keep up the good work!

vermaple

[Gary R]

The preheater is vented. If I decide to change the pre heater, I think I'll change the outlet position. I'd move it to the other side and run the pipe back across the pan. Doing so would add almost 2' of piping. I also will add new pan gasket. I currently have a thin piece of blanket for the pan to set on. I'll go to the full 1". This should give my some extra clearence under the pan.

Chris, all the "V"'s for the drip tray are aluminum. I thought everyone could tell by the beautiful welds:lol:

[Gary R]

I wanted to follow up on how things went. It was a poor season so I did not have any long boils. The preheater change and air over has added at least 2-3 gph. I am now adding wood every 10 minutes. I do have some issues. The way I plumbed the air to the air over, most of the air comes from the back of the fire box. A larger manifold and bringing the air to both sides of the manifold would fix that. The blower needs to be shut off to fire now. I did not add dampers to over or under air. That would help balance things. My wood is split small. With larger wood I'm sure I could go to 15 minute fire. All in all this does work well. I can keep a full boil easily in the whole pan. The fire brick floor is awesome. No chance of warping and the holes keep clear. Preheat temp does only go to 165. That would be because my hood is open on the front.

[matrob]

Gary,
I'm looking at a similar modification because my pan near the stack won't boil. Are you saying you swapped out the blanket for the brick nearest the stack. Was the blanket hampering the boil? I know I need a bigger stack, but would like to figure out what other changes I should make at that time. My blower at the fire puts plenty of air in the fire, but I'm only getting 300 -400degrees at the stack. I don't have over fire air.
Thanks,
Matt

[Gary R]

Matt,

In my opinion, each homemade evaporator works a little different. There are some guidlines as to area under the back of the pan and stack size. But I think each builder has to tweak them to burn the best. With a blower on it, and only 300 degrees, it sounds like you have a restriction. Too small of stack or not enough clearance under the pan. I had the same problem when I put too much blanket under the pan. I only had about 1" space. It wouldn't boil. I opened it up to 2" and it boils great. Try some changes and boil water. Good luck!