Need help with a pump

[DMF]

Hi - My company threw this pump out. It is brand new, never been used. Our set=up has our sugar house on top of a hill and all our collection tanks at the bottom (OK, not the greatest planning, but in our defense we don't have any power or bathroom facilities at the bottom of the hill).

The drop in elevation from the sugar house to the collection tanks is around 100' or so and are probably 1500-1700' away. The pump specs says "Heads to 230'". Does that mean it can pump that high or can it draw from that height?

Ideally, we could put the pump in the sugar house and suck the sap up from the collection tanks if it can suck that high.

Conversely, if it can't suck that high, but can pump that high we could put the pump down near the collection tanks and run it off of a generator to pump the sap up the the sugar house.

Obviously, I don't know anything about pumps, so any help is greatly appreciated.

[NhShaun]

You may be better off pumping from the bottom up to the sugar house as the head pressure will probably more powerful than the lift(suction) on that pump. Also if it isn't self priming you will have a much easier time priming it from the bottom and having minimal dry running time. Bring a few buckets with you to collect whatever drains from back down the pipe and keep it drained to prevent freezing/thawing hold ups. Some more specs on the pump may be more helpful too, like the brand, HP, inlet/outlet size. Also be sure the pump is made for food contact(potable water preferably) and not just a waste type pump.

[DMF]

Doh! I meant to add the link!

https://www.pumpcatalog.com/goulds/hsc-centrifugal-pump-series/hsc15/

[DrTimPerkins]

Maximum suction lift for any pump tops out at about 22'. You can pump up considerably higher than that with the right pump. This one should work just fine with the right generator. Not clear if this is for potable water though.

[DMF]

Maximum suction lift for any pump tops out at about 22'. You can pump up considerably higher than that with the right pump. This one should work just fine with the right generator. Not clear if this is for potable water though.

It was originally purchased for the company's well so I would assume it is...?

[buckeye gold]

I looked at the pump curve and figured your total dynamic head and that far with 1" pipe you will probably max out at 10-15 GPM. You will have to mount it at the bottom of the hill, it will not pull sap that high unless you have a check valve and leave the pipe full of sap....trouble waiting to happen. At that you will be working the snot out of that pump and it won't last. Since it was free, your not out anything. You'll be between 200 and 220 DTH. I would put a tee just past the pump outlet and valve it so you can drain sap out that way without pushing it back through the pump.

[maple flats]

Even if you had a check valve and left the pump and pipe full of water it would not work from the top. That is because a pump that is pulling can lift no more that what the atmospheric pressure can push it. It must be pushing from the bottom. Now, if you set up a deep well type of method, if it's the right type pump, which I didn't check out, it could lift that high, but in reality that type of pump is really pushing water down to power an injector, which then pushes more water up than it uses to push down. In other words, the 2 pipe deep well pump is using water pushing down to power the injector to push more water up. That would require 2 pipes, one down ward flow, the other one up.

[buckeye gold]

Maple flats is correct, you would need a jet pump to use the pump at the top of the hill. I over looked that.

[DMF]

I looked at the pump curve and figured your total dynamic head and that far with 1" pipe you will probably max out at 10-15 GPM. You will have to mount it at the bottom of the hill, it will not pull sap that high unless you have a check valve and leave the pipe full of sap....trouble waiting to happen. At that you will be working the snot out of that pump and it won't last. Since it was free, your not out anything. You'll be between 200 and 220 DTH. I would put a tee just past the pump outlet and valve it so you can drain sap out that way without pushing it back through the pump.

Looks like the bottom of the hill it is. Is it better for me to use a smaller line than 1"? Is there smaller line?

[maple flats]

A smaller line will certainly move things slower and leave less sap in the line to drain back, but you might need to get the head rating on the pump. You need to know the height you want the pump to, compare that to the head rating (in feet of head) That will be how high the pump can push the sap uphill, to that if the 2 numbers are close, you may also need to find a chart to see how line friction in a smaller hose adds to the head needed to push sap that high. I don't have such a chart, but likely someone on here will. A smaller diameter hose makes it harder to move the sap, thus adding to the required head required.
You said the pump specs show 230' head, now find your elevation change actual at your site, then find the head loss due to the 1700' or so thru which ever pipe diameter you will use. As long as that does not flirt with 230' you should be good. Also, if a 3/4" pipe gets the nimber too close the the 230' of head, a 1" will have less line friction, thus less head loss. For that matter, 1.25" would also be less.

I learned the importance of head,flow and pressure back 35 yrs ago, when I grew 3 acres of strawberries. For frost control I had to run 43 sprinklers at a minimum of 60 PSI in order to get enough water on the plants to prevent frost damage. I used a 3" high pressure fire pump, the suction line had to be 4" and the outlet pipe also 4" until enough lines and sprinklers had been branched off so I could reduce to a 3" mainline, then the 450' rows of strawberries were each 2" pipe. It was all calculated so all sprinklers got the 60 PSI they needed to protect the berry blossoms. Then the pumps I used to keep the pond full enough were only 2" pumps, pushing thru 1500' of 2" pipe, open discharge from a local creek with only a 17' lift from creek level to the pond.

[DMF]

The head rating on the pump is 230' and the discharge diameter is 1". I need to move the sap up 100' +/- 10' The line would be close to 1500' which for a 1" line would leave 61.2 gallons in the line. For 1/2" line, there would be 15.3 gallons in the line. :(

[Cameron Duke]

We have about the same situation you are talking about with ours being 120' of elevation change and our line is 1200' long. We use 1 inch pipe and a 1.5 Submersible pump operates at 10 gpm. We pump up whats in the tank and then drain the line after we pump. The difference with us would be we are pumping up 1800 taps worth so the 50 gallons in the line isn't really much. On big runs we have continuously pumped for over 2 hours just to keep up

[maple flats]

The head rating on the pump is 230' and the discharge diameter is 1". I need to move the sap up 100' +/- 10' The line would be close to 1500' which for a 1" line would leave 61.2 gallons in the line. For 1/2" line, there would be 15.3 gallons in the line. :(
Check what the length of each size line will do in the performance. With 130' head leeway, it likely would not stop the flow, but the flow would certainly be considerably less with the smaller pipe. It would be a shame, if you set it all up on 1/2" only to find the flow is too slow and you need to go to 3/4"

[buckeye gold]

If I figured right you can't do it with 1/2". With 3/4" it's close but the flow yield is only 5 gpm. reducing pipe diameter only exacerbates the head vs flow calculation. However, going to 1 1/4" pipe is doable and should get you around 20 GPM. Just a lot of sap left in the line. Personally, I would rather haul it to the sugar shack. That's what I do now and my collection tank is about the same distance from the shack.

[DMF]

Personally, I would rather haul it to the sugar shack. That's what I do now and my collection tank is about the same distance from the shack.

I think you are right... :(

[NhShaun]

Depends on the terrain of the trail to and from, hauling may be simpler. But you did score the pump for free, so investing a bit in some tubing may be worth avoiding wear and tear on your sap hauling equipment and possibly your back. You may also be able to find a use for the pump with less distance or height involved to test it out to see how it performs transferring some sap.

[DMF]

Depends on the terrain of the trail to and from, hauling may be simpler. But you did score the pump for free, so investing a bit in some tubing may be worth avoiding wear and tear on your sap hauling equipment and possibly your back. You may also be able to find a use for the pump with less distance or height involved to test it out to see how it performs transferring some sap.

Currently, I have 3/16 sap lines running to two IBC totes (4 lines into one and 3 lines into another) and one line running to two 55 gallon drums. I use another IBC on the back of my tractor to collect. The collection tanks are on a property that has road frontage which I use to access these tanks. Currently they are 300-350' from the road. I have a driveway access off of it but it is paved for 50', gravel for 50' and woods road the rest of the way which gets really muddy. I haven't gotten stuck yet but I think it's inevitable. Plus, when it's running good I need to make 2-3 trips probably 2 miles round trip.

The woods from where I currently have the tanks to the road still slopes, but to a lesser degree. The idea is, extend the lines closer to the paved road, put three totes there, pick up another 30-50 taps in the process and collect from one location. There is a brook between the road and where we plan to collect so I would need to make a foot bridge about 12'-14' long to span it to get my dolly mounted transfer pump over to the tanks, but the good side is I can put 2-3 IBC totes on my flatbed truck, have it parked on the road and only make one trip.

When we were looking at this, my buddy came up with the idea "why not use the new free pump and pump it right to the sugar house?" That scenario would allow us to run down on the Ranger with that free pump and the generator to run it. It's a good idea, but it may not be as feasible as we hoped...