preheater

[ir3333]

has anybody come up with an effective preheater to feed the sap pan?

[randolphvt]

Depending on how fast you need to feed the feed pan I'm going to use copper coil around my chimney about 10x's. Once that chimney gets hot it will be nearly boiling by the time it gets to the feed pan.
I used to use a huge coffee urn to heat up my sap then feed it to the feed pan.

[therealtreehugger]

I have heard about people doing this before, using copper tubing. But I am leery of using anything that might leach unwanted stuff into the sap. I would think that when you heat the sap, as you are doing in a preheated like the copper coils, isn’t there something in the copper that might leach into the sap? I have considered this method of preheating, and I like the concept, but I think I need someone to tell me scientifically that it is okay to do this.

[ir3333]

Copper is used extensively for cooking so wouldn't it be OK? If the coils ever run dry is there a problem
with the extreme heat and will they coke up with calcium and minerals like a pan does?

[Brian]

Remember if the sap stops for long in the copper pipe, the sap in the pipe will burn and ruin your syrup.That happened to me about 20 pluse years ago.

[ir3333]

tx...was just about to call a friend who tried this a few years ago. Couldn't remember why he didn't like it?
I think it was shutting down that created the problem.

[VTnewguy]

Depending on how fast you need to feed the feed pan I'm going to use copper coil around my chimney about 10x's. Once that chimney gets hot it will be nearly boiling by the time it gets to the feed pan.
I used to use a huge coffee urn to heat up my sap then feed it to the feed pan.

I never tried it but I was told the fear is getting a vapor lock in a coil and being unable to keep the sap flowing to the pan.

[afretired]

I used about 20' of 1/2" copper coil on my stack to pre-heat the sap. I additionally wrapped a piece of stainless steel around the outside to cover it and try to keep in a little more heat. I then had it running into a float box with a float valve. if the float valve shut off, the sap would boil in the tube, and like VTnewguy said, it would vapor lock and scorch the sap in the coil. When all was running wide open and the evaporator rocking, the sap didn't have time to warm up much. Also I had some spots in my coil that didn't drain completely and would freeze and swell the copper. I finally done away with it.

[JoeJ]

According to upcoming new Vermont Sugar House Certification program, using copper is not allowed. There is supposedly some lead in copper piping.

Joe

[bill m]

It's not the lead in the copper it's the lead in the solder used in putting it together.

[JoeJ]

Bill M.
Not to be contrary but, in the new Vermont Sugarhouse Certification Checklist, the number one item on the checklist is "Lead Mitigation" and last item in this section is "No copper in contact with sap or syrup (copper may contain up to 1% lead) and you don't pass with any copper. Also, after a year or two, all PVC will have to be NSF-61 or an equal label. No DWV fittings or pipe will be allowed.

Joe

[therealtreehugger]

Ok - No copper tubing for me. I didn't think that a slow flow would be a problem for me, as I was only going to do a few wraps around the stove pipe, but then again, there are times when I have to turn the flow off, and yes, as Brian and Afretired said, it will burn. What really pushed me over the edge though, was the certification standards from JoeJ. There is no way I will ever be a big enough operation to even think about that, but I do want to do things right.
Thank you all for your input!

Now - back to the original question - how else can we preheat? especially us smaller maplers?

Thanks!

[ir3333]

i have used a pre heat pan sitting on and feeding my rear sap pan.If kept full it maintains about 60 - 65 degrees....which is
better than 35.Maybe a design that would cause the condensation to run down and drip outside the sap pan could work?
Keeping the preheat pan on open flame could work but you might as well increase your sap pan size to use the fire? Mine is just
a hobby unit.Undecided how many trees to tap this year?

[mdm1]

I just have a pan that sits above my main pan. It has a petcock valve that I use to regulate the sap being introduced to the boil. By doing it this way for me I don't lose the boil in the pan. Not really a preheater per say but I am just a micro cooker!

[therealtreehugger]

I just have a pan that sits above my main pan. It has a petcock valve that I use to regulate the sap being introduced to the boil. By doing it this way for me I don't lose the boil in the pan. Not really a preheater per say but I am just a micro cooker!

And how do you prevent condensation from dripping back into the pan?

[mdm1]

I have watched that and don't think it is too much of a concern to me. But maybe I am getting more back into the pan than I think. I only do around 5gals of syrup a year. Just a fun hobby for me. I may put something at an angle under the pan to try and divert the condensation away and see how much there really is. I could be wasting my time with how I do it but still enjoy it.

[bill m]

JoeJ There is no lead used in the manufacturing of copper pipe. It is made from 99.9% pure copper with a small amount of silver. It was easier for Vermont to ban all copper than do the testing for lead in the soldered connections.

[therealtreehugger]

And that is the whole reason - because we enjoy it! no matter how much drips back into the pan!

[Zucker Lager]

Soft stainless tubing is the answer if you don't want copper. Its harder to bend properly but you can do it. Here is a link to a place that has it for sale $$$$$. Jay
https://www.amazon.com/D-Stainless-Steel-Tubing-Coil/dp/B00GPB8F32

[Johnny Yooper]

I was just about to question that 1% lead in copper pipe statement until I read the post from bill m. I think the EPA set limits back in the 80's or 90's for lead content in drinking water......maybe 50 parts per billion or similar limit?.... in any case, it's WAAAY below 1%. Heck, lead free solder has been the requirement for years already. When we built our house 20 years ago, we used copper pipe for the entire plumbing system (except for PEX in the basement floor), we have well over one hundred sweated copper connections I can't even guess how many thousands of gallons of water have gone through our faucets since then. I have a preheater made of coiled copper pipe wrapped around my stove chimney; I boil mainly on weekends, so about 8 to 10 all day boils and for us backyard hobbyists I see nothing wrong with these copper preheater setups......a lot more things to worry about breathing in, drinking, and eating in our daily lives vs lead in sap/syrup from a few weekends of boiling. Maybe cause for some concern for old set ups prior to the lead bans but probably no need to worry for recent builds. To the OP's question on a preheater, I run water through my copper preheater before I run any sap through just to make sure it's clean; 40F sap enters the preheater and it exits at 160F to 190F going into the sap pan, temperatures vary on whether I have the blower running for air under fire (that really kicks temperatures up), I've never had vapor lock; when I stop pumping sap I give a quick switch to water to again flush the system and keep that flowing until thing cool down. Really upped my efficiency; hope this is helpful.

[Brian]

It is not the lead with copper. It is the copper sulphate in the lines from sitting there all summer with no liquid in them. That is the problem because air and copper turn green,that is copper sulphate.

[therealtreehugger]

It is not the lead with copper. It is the copper sulphate in the lines from sitting there all summer with no liquid in them. That is the problem because air and copper turn green,that is copper sulphate.
So is there a way to "rinse" the copper sulphate out of the copper tubing if has been sitting all year?

[JoeJ]

Not to offend anyone posting about the subject of using copper, BUT, when you are dealing with the FDA, they don't care if you think copper is OK and that there is no lead in copper tubing. If the FDA says no copper, then the rule is no copper. The new Vermont Sugar House Certification program is incorporating FDA requirements, including no copper, so that sugar makers that meet the new Sugar House Certification requirements
will also meet the necessary FDA rules to pass a FDA inspection.

Joe

[Brian]

Last I knew Leader was still using copper in their pre heaters, that was 3 or 4 years ago. I believe there will be copper around for a while still. I am all stainless, but there is a lot of sugar makers out there that will not change until they have to. A lot of steam aways have copper too. I don't blame them because it is very expensive to change everything over after you get all the ball valves ect installed. It has cost me 1000's to change my manifolds in my woods and pump shacks.That is why 2.00 a pound sucks!!!

[Bucket Head]

Not debating here- I agree with the above posts. But green stuff probably isn't growing wild in all our pipes. I had to take the first preheater I built apart to get it out and all I saw was white- a lot of white- like it was lined with it! The scale from heating/boiling adheres to the inside of the pipes like a coating. I'm not saying green doesn't happen, but if you flush/rinse with water right after you run out of sap each boil and it drains out well, you'll probably be fine.

Steve

[DrTimPerkins]

25 years ago, during the lead issue of the mid-1990s, a list of compatible materials for each type of maple use was made as part of the maple equipment manufacturing association. Copper was only permitted in preheaters, against many objections, but was recommended for phase-out as soon as feasible. For most manufacturers that was within 10 yrs. Comparisons with house water systems is not valid, since sap is typically slightly acidic and will leach metals far faster than water, especially when hot, and then concentrated during boiling.

Joe is correct. Doesn’t matter what we think, it matters what the regulations say. To introduce another touchy subject...galvanized materials have never really been acceptable. Let the fireworks begin.

Good article at https://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fs119

[Someclown]

Has anyone thought of or tried anything like this wort chiller, 50 ft maybe a little excessive but there are different lengths. A good alternative to copper but the description does not say what grade stainless it is. Being for brewing it has to be food grade.
21714

[Swingpure]

I wonder how this stainless steel hose would work with garden hose fittings at each end.

https://www.amazon.ca/Bionic-Steel-Stainless-Metal-Garden/dp/B0713Q3HNF/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?gclid=CjwKCAjwjZmTBhB4EiwAynRmDzqy hSGX0IYUUCw5UlsgJ2VJTJttUGuExUHA6f8DynawYZmGa5G1lR oCSQEQAvD_BwE&hvadid=588858130060&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9001113&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=2822239512596740493&hvtargid=kwd-444300510639&hydadcr=12844_13406353&keywords=hose%2Bstainless%2Bsteel%2Bflexible&qid=1650927844&sr=8-1-spons&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEzU05FWDdMV1ZUVU5MJ mVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwNDQzNzk2VUozVktVM1VYR0JaJmVuY3J 5cHRlZEFkSWQ9QTA1NDg2MzNXRjlMMlQzNk81WVkmd2lkZ2V0T mFtZT1zcF9hdGYmYWN0aW9uPWNsaWNrUmVkaXJlY3QmZG9Ob3R Mb2dDbGljaz10cnVl&th=1

https://share.icloud.com/photos/0e5Ogfdmaaz9GncCenoYldyBw

[Pdiamond]

Are you thinking about putting this around the chimney to pre-heat sap? I am not sure it would hold up to the temperature put out by the chimney. You would have to ask the manufacturer what could withstand. Not being made for this I'll bet they cannot answer. Better to go with the flexible copper.

[Z/MAN]

I wonder how this stainless steel hose would work with garden hose fittings at each end.

https://www.amazon.ca/Bionic-Steel-Stainless-Metal-Garden/dp/B0713Q3HNF/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?gclid=CjwKCAjwjZmTBhB4EiwAynRmDzqy hSGX0IYUUCw5UlsgJ2VJTJttUGuExUHA6f8DynawYZmGa5G1lR oCSQEQAvD_BwE&hvadid=588858130060&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9001113&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=2822239512596740493&hvtargid=kwd-444300510639&hydadcr=12844_13406353&keywords=hose%2Bstainless%2Bsteel%2Bflexible&qid=1650927844&sr=8-1-spons&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEzU05FWDdMV1ZUVU5MJ mVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwNDQzNzk2VUozVktVM1VYR0JaJmVuY3J 5cHRlZEFkSWQ9QTA1NDg2MzNXRjlMMlQzNk81WVkmd2lkZ2V0T mFtZT1zcF9hdGYmYWN0aW9uPWNsaWNrUmVkaXJlY3QmZG9Ob3R Mb2dDbGljaz10cnVl&th=1

https://share.icloud.com/photos/0e5Ogfdmaaz9GncCenoYldyBw

Read the reviews, that hose is junk.

[Swingpure]

Are you thinking about putting this around the chimney to pre-heat sap? I am not sure it would hold up to the temperature put out by the chimney. You would have to ask the manufacturer what could withstand. Not being made for this I'll bet they cannot answer. Better to go with the flexible copper.

I had planned on copper, but read threads saying you should not use copper. I know others use it. I tend to be a rules follower, so I was just looking for a stainless steel alternative. I found 3/8 stainless steel tubing, but it was for brake lines and did not know if it would be okay.

Copper would be a much easier choice for me.

[DRoseum]

You can find 3/8 or 1/4 stainless (304 or 316) tubing online. I have purchased it online a couple times. Its fairly easy to form if you have a simple hand tubing bender.

[Swingpure]

You can find 3/8 or 1/4 stainless (304 or 316) tubing online. I have purchased it online a couple times. Its fairly easy to form if you have a simple hand tubing bender.

I did see 1/4” tubing on line. Would fittings for stainless steel tubing be found readily on line? Would they be the same as the ones for copper tubing?

Thanks

[Swingpure]

You can find 3/8 or 1/4 stainless (304 or 316) tubing online. I have purchased it online a couple times. Its fairly easy to form if you have a simple hand tubing bender.

If it says that it is for brake lines, is it still okay?

Thanks

[snakes14009]

You can buy a pre coiled stainless tubing from the brewing world that is just about the same cost as buying your own and bending. I bought one this year and ran it from my preheat pan down into my syrup pan, it just rested on top of the pan dividers. it raised the sap temp 20-40f. I bought stainless steel compression fittings so i could disconnect it easier. it worked really well. I thought about running it around the smoke stack, but my father suggested against that incase you have an issue with it you would have to dis-assemble the smoke stack. but the stainless tubing is never going to transfer heat like copper but it is "safer" and in accordance with the rules. plus it will last forever if kept clean.

[needmoremaples]

Tim, could aluminum be used as a head tank? Hood preheat?

[DrTimPerkins]

Tim, could aluminum be used as a head tank? Hood preheat?

Aluminum is no longer considered acceptable for prolonged sap contact by the maple equipment manufacturers association. It could be used as a hood if the condensate didn't drip back into the evaporator, but not as a preheater for sap contact.