To R.O. or not to R.O. that is the question

[buckeye gold]

I have watched and read so many threads on the use, running and building of R.O. units. What I was wondering is how everyone makes that decision to use an R.O.

What is your rationalization and requirements.

Is the primary reason that, I want to reduce boiling time?

I want to be more efficient, my boiling time is limited and I can run the R.O. while working or doing other things.

What other justifications are there? To me it seems that the primary rational is time, is that right? Also, I can see you can use smaller evaporators, but I think this is a wash when you add the cost of a R.O. to your operation you could buy a bigger unit with that money.

I have wondered if I can justify an R.O.? Here are my yay and nays to getting an R.O.

A.) My evaporator can run 15-17 GPH at peak efficiency, but averages 13-14 on most days. both yay and nay

B.) I have 130 taps and big runs can turn into 12-14 hr days or more. yay ( these overwhelming runs happen maybe two to three days a year)

C.) I am retired and have the time, but long days get old. yay and Nay

D.) I really am a hobby producer and try to keep expenses low. Nay

E.) An R.O. would be the second most expensive thing in my shack and my time is cheap. Nay (expense is probably the no. 1 nay)

F.) More work maintaining the R.O. in an unheated shack and operational maintenance. Nay (this would be my second ranked nay)

G.) BY the time I wait on an R.O. to get enough sap run to start up I could have been cooking for a couple hrs. Nay

So at the end of the day I have decided to not use an R.O. and probably won't. Am I missing something? Just curious what went into others decision making processes.

[Kh7722]

I will say that once you boil with an RO you will never go back. The amount of fuel, wood or oil, saved is incredible. Even with your retired time, turning a 12 hour boil in just 2 or 3 hours makes it more exciting and fulfilling. We went with an ro because there isnt enough time in a day between work, kids and life.

[MapleMark753]

Yeah, well, in my opinion you might just be slightly overthinking it. You've weighed all the pros and cons, which is what I did too. I think, (can't and wouldn't try to speak for you!) that WITH an RO you'd have so much more joy in your life over the maple season that you would truly wonder why you didn't do it before. Practically its for all the quantifiable reasons, but all that added up means a happier dude, at least for me.
I'd let you borrow all my RO stuff if you were close by to me (well, for a week or so anyways, lol...) Is there somebody near you that'd borrow you one for a short time to see if you'd like it?
Just a suggestion, take care, Mark

[Gord]

I'm a small time back yarder with a barrel stove and pan without dividers. I like to do the entire process from lighting the stove to bottling the syrup in one day. A 40 to 50 gallon boil takes an entire day and then some for me. If I can turn 50 gallons in to 25 gallons or 100 in to 50, I can turn that day in to twice as much syrup instead of twice as much boiling. I own a cabinet shop and set up my RO in there so I can work while it's working. Then instead of hauling 50 gallons of sap home, I'm hauling 25.
So, I guess #2 would be my reason for making the leap.
"I want to be more efficient, my boiling time is limited and I can run the R.O. while working or doing other things."

[ennismaple]

At your size there is definitely a debate whether an RO is a benefit or do you buy a bigger and more efficient evaporator to get a better boil rate. A bigger evaporator means more time cutting and splitting wood (in the off-season) that could be spent doing other things. For those of us with day jobs we simply can't spend more hours boiling. With our bigger RO and 3rd tower this past spring I was able to start the RO at lunch and have a concentrate tank of 18 Brix sap ready to boil by the time I was done work. I'd boil for 3 or 4 hours, shut down and be in bed at a normal time.

The other thing to consider is being energy efficient. The electricity cost (and GHG emissions) to run an RO is much less than the cost of the wood or the furnace oil. Before our RO we made 20 gallons of syrup on a full chord of wood. We went to a single RO tower and that went to close to 70 gallons per chord. 2 towers and we were at 100-125 gallons per chord. Now that we're at 3 towers we made 225 gallons per chord of wood and our days boiling are cut in half. I like boiling but not enough to watch a pan and feed the fire for 12 hours a day anymore!

Every producer I know that I've talked to about whether to get an RO or not has the same concerns and questions. After the first season boiling concentrate I ask if they're going to get rid of the RO and go back to boiling raw sap - and they laugh at me!

[buckeye gold]

Good replys guys. I guess it really comes down to I am an old tightwad and not skilled enough to build my own. As for wood, that's not even a concern. I cut literally tons of firewood all year. What I burn sugaring is the smallest consumer of my wood. I sell wood and burn it as primary heat. I have Over a thousand acres of family land and all the free wood I could ever want. I usually have two to three years worth cut ahead.

One more question, do you process most of your sap before you start boiling or just enough to start without running the head tank low and then keep processing while your boiling. I was thinking that a R.O. that had concentrate output about what my boil rate is would be the proper size and I'd boil soon as I had a couple hrs worth of concentrate in the head tank and keep right on processing raw sap as I boiled.

[MapleMark753]

We usually process most of the sap into concentrate before firing up the evaporator. Yes, less efficient with time. But, is much less hectic, and still saves tons of time and everything else.
As far as size, obviously you'd get a relatively small RO, but one that would give you enough permeate to rinse your RO (cold, warm, cold) after each days/runs usage to keep the membranes in great shape.
take care
Mark

[TapTapTap]

Buckeye,

You think too much like a banker or something.

You need to restate your analysis with more thoughtful questions:

- Is an RO a big, shiny, technical piece of equipment? Yes indeed. I could show it off to my friends and they'd be very impressed.
- Does it take a lot of power to turn the HIGH PRESSURE PUMP? Hell yes!
- Could I blow it up with one stupid little mistake? Yea, but you can't be afraid.
- Would it look cool in my sugarhouse? Yes, and all that plumbing and valves are awesome!
- Will an RO mean that I need to expand my sugarhouse? Hmmm - I love building!
- Should I plan to expand my sugarbush to justify an RO? Yes, that makes sense!

Let me know if you need any more help. I know a lot about this type of rationalization.

Cheers!

Ken

[buckeye gold]

TapTapTap,

That's funny, my wife is a banker, but she's retiring December 31st so she's about to become a sugaring momma.

[TapTapTap]

TapTapTap,

That's funny, my wife is a banker, but she's retiring December 31st so she's about to become a sugaring momma.


You tell her she can't be thinking like a banker anymore, especially for sugaring. It's not about the profit ya know.. LOL.

[GeneralStark]

Obviously this decision is totally dependent upon any given sugaring operation but a few other thoughts I would to add to other's suggestions already shared:

In addition to saving time and fuel an ro also gives you more time to clean your equipment between boils. When I was boiling raw sap I rarely had time to clean the pans unless it was getting desperate. With an ro, during the peak of the season I can boil every other day and clean on the off day. So syrup quality and flavor has improved.

The money is made in the woods... An ro gives you more time to make sure you're getting as much sap as possible.

You'll make more syrup. That low sugar sap at the end of the season that may not be worth boiling for hours for a couple gallons is now worth the effort.

An ro gives way more flexibility, especially during the peak of the season. You can't boil when you're asleep, but you can run the ro (assuming it is set up to shut off automatically...)

You'll also have a lot less wear and tear on your rig and your body with an ro which means fewer mistakes and more energy to make as much syrup as possible.

Personally, my least favorite part of sugaring is standing around watching water boil, but with an ro it becomes way more fast paced and fun IMO.

[littleTapper]

Nike has the best slogan for this situation: Just Do It.

Last year was my first year with an RO. 100 taps, 2x4 divided. There have been very long boils and if the runs are good over several days it can be challenging keeping up (especially with a family, job, etc). RO makes the season so much less stressful and enjoyable. Best $ I ever spent. I could get the efficiency with a different pan, but that would be a couple thousand $ or a few hundred for the RO.

I even wired mine up with internet connected relays and switches. I can start it up from anywhere with my phone and I did that last season from the office and kid's basketball games. Get home to a bunch of concentrated sap. This season will be different and even more convenient working from home every day.

So, yeah, Just Do It :)

[bmbmkr]

Hidy Neighbor!!

My experience with the RO is phenomenal. In 2017, my first year, I was boiling 18 & 20 hours in my 15 gph rig, ( I eventually got it to 20), with 120 taps. For the 2018 season I paid $1k for a used Deer Run 125 gph RO (single 4x40). I took a leap and doubled my taps. I ran all the sap through 2 times and boiled for 5-8 hours while reducing firewood consumption by 80%. In 2019 I read EVERY RO thread on here and added another membrane and an electric motor & pump- the original was gas. I tapped 450 and used about the same amount of wood, more than doubled my syrup. I don't have time to help you this year, but if you want to build one for next year I'm goin to upgrade again(either procon 660 or a goulds multi stage) and my 1 1/2 HP motor and 330gph Procon pump will be available. I can help you with it then. Like everyone else said, you will wonder how you did without it. Here's another story to put it in perspective - My neighbors have 50 taps on buckets, they boil on a gas kitchen stove on their back deck, they bring 70 gallons of sap down here in buckets, we run it through the RO for about 30 minutes, and they go home with 8 or 9 gallons.

[buckeye gold]

Hidy Neighbor!!

My experience with the RO is phenomenal. In 2017, my first year, I was boiling 18 & 20 hours in my 15 gph rig, ( I eventually got it to 20), with 120 taps. For the 2018 season I paid $1k for a used Deer Run 25 gph RO (single 4x40). I took a leap and doubled my taps. I ran all the sap through 2 times and boiled for 5-8 hours while reducing firewood consumption by 80%. In 2019 I read EVERY RO thread on here and added another membrane and an electric motor & pump- the original was gas. I tapped 450 and used about the same amount of wood, more than doubled my syrup. I don't have time to help you this year, but if you want to build one for next year I'm goin to upgrade again(either procon 660 or a goulds multi stage) and my 1 1/2 HP motor and 330gph Procon pump will be available. I can help you with it then. Like everyone else said, you will wonder how you did without it. Here's another story to put it in perspective - My neighbors have 50 taps on buckets, they boil on a gas kitchen stove on their back deck, they bring 70 gallons of sap down here in buckets, we run it through the RO for about 30 minutes, and they go home with 8 or 9 gallons.

Hey neighbor,

I hope your family has avoided the covid-19 virus. I appreciate the offer, but I'm still hesitant to pull the trigger. Not having any heat in the shack other than when the evaporator is running is a concern. I will drop you a PM if I decide to take you up on it.

You river rats better be getting ready, it's going to be an early season. I put out 50 early taps yesterday afternoon late and had 35 gallons of good looking sap this morning. Enough to sweeten my small pan. Hopefully I'll draw syrup off tomorrow. It's on baby!:D

[DrTimPerkins]

My experience with the RO is phenomenal.

It is very unusual for people to ever go from RO to non-RO unless they seriously downsize. The convenience and time-savings is just much to give up.

[maple flats]

Back when I was just over 700 taps I struggled with the idea of getting an RO. Then on one big run stretch over a 4 day period I couldn't keep up. I had to sell sap. I sold 1150 gal of sap in those 4 days, all while my wife boiled trying to boil off the sap we had at our sugar house. I sold it to a producer who had an RO. I talked with him at length, getting RO information.
One month or so later (spring sale) I placed the order for my 250 GPH RO. My wife told visitors the next season that the RO was the best piece of equipment I've ever bought. We both still feel that way.
Even though I went from just over 700 taps, up to 1320 taps in 2 years, the RO made it easy. Now that I've lost all of my help and cut my taps to 400, I will not get rid of my RO. It saves so much firewood. (I like you have loads of wood available, I don't sell firewood, but I find plenty to do with my time besides splitting wood.) I even have a Super Split which is very fast. I can split wood to wrist size in less than 1/4 the time I used to take with my old hydraulic splitter.
Get or build an RO, you will never look back and wish you hadn't gotten it.

[bill m]

Buckeye gold, do you have electricity in your Sugarhouse? All you need is a closet big enough for the ro to fit in. Heat it with a 100 watt light bulb. Use camlocks on your hoses. Wheel it out when you need it then wheel it back when you are done.

[vtbackyardmaple]

For me it comes down to time and fuel costs. RO saves that. If that doesn't matter to you then it's a mute point.
I'm 51 and splitting wood with a maul is not my favorite thing to do. Keep in mind I split it to 2.5x2.5 inch in size. I'm adament about that.
I think my next investment will be an electric splitter after I get a blower for my evap. I'm custom making one for my starcat.

[Gord]

When my Dad started getting too old to be starting and operating his big gas splitter, my brother and I got him a 7 ton electric splitter. One of the best things we ever bought. He loved it, and I use it all the time. We've lent it out to friends and by using common sense, it's been able to split everything we've thrown at it.
vtbackyard mentioned 2-1/2" X 2-1/2" pieces. At some point on this forum someone said they split their wood to the size of their wrist. That stuck with me and is what I do now.

[ir3333]

does the speed of production / less boiling, change the syrup taste and colour

[DrTimPerkins]

does the speed of production / less boiling, change the syrup taste and colour

In general no. Up to about 8 Brix, syrup might be a little darker with RO. Above that, a little lighter. Flavor isn't affected much at all.

https://mapleresearch.org/pub/m1015reverseosmosisflavor/

[ennismaple]

does the speed of production / less boiling, change the syrup taste and colour

Depends - there are a number of posts on this site about that topic. If you concentrate to about 8% you actually get slightly darker syrup because of the warming of the concentrate through the RO. If you concentrate higher than that the syrup gets lighter.

What we've found is we get more consistent colour with the RO. We can process more sap per day and once you flush through the concentrate that's sat in the evaporator for the last few days the colour comes back by 15-20LT. We've made 6 drums in the same day all within 5 LT of each other. Without an RO as the boils get over 5 hours the nitre in the syrup pan starts to scorch causing the syrup to darker and creating an off-flavour.

[ir3333]

TX. i had thought the longer you boil the darker the syrup...so by speeding the process up and boiling less i thought you would
end up with lighter flavour and color...yes, i'm new to the hobby. This will be my third year and i have made more changes to my
system for this spring.

[therealtreehugger]

Do it!! Get the RO.

I got the RO10 bucket kit, and mounted it on a small piece of plywood with a shelf on the bottom, so it was free standing, and I could just pick it up and bring it inside to keep it from freezing when not in use. I hook it up and get it going first, put an inch of sap in the pan to keep it from burning, then by the time I get the fire going enough to boil, I have enough RO-ed sap to add. My set-up boils aprox 10 gph, and the RO keeps up nicely. Of course I only have time to let it run through once when I do it this way. If I want to run it through the RO more than once, I need to get my butt in gear and get out there earlier.

[Sugar Bear]

The original post needs to ask only one question.

Are you trying to make money producing maple syrup?

YEA -> get your sap into an RO system.

NAY -> sit back and watch the steam run off into the moonlight and listen to the Coyotes howl at midnight (my preference )

[buckeye gold]

Do it!! Get the RO.

I got the RO10 bucket kit, and mounted it on a small piece of plywood with a shelf on the bottom, so it was free standing, and I could just pick it up and bring it inside to keep it from freezing when not in use. I hook it up and get it going first, put an inch of sap in the pan to keep it from burning, then by the time I get the fire going enough to boil, I have enough RO-ed sap to add. My set-up boils aprox 10 gph, and the RO keeps up nicely. Of course I only have time to let it run through once when I do it this way. If I want to run it through the RO more than once, I need to get my butt in gear and get out there earlier.

That's what I figured I'd do if I decided to use an RO

[Trapper2]

[QUOTE=buckeye gold;387381]Hey neighbor,

I hope your family has avoided the covid-19 virus. I appreciate the offer, but I'm still hesitant to pull the trigger. Not having any heat in the shack other than when the evaporator is running is a concern. I will drop you a PM if I decide to take you up on it.

The no heat in my shack was my biggest concern 2 years ago when I started to RO, so I bought the RB 15 bucket so I could easily transport to the heated Cabin at the end of the day. The RB 15 gives me about 10 gallons of concentrate an hour but my arch evaps about 12-15 so I always started to RO first thing in the morning while I was out collecting. That would give me a little stockpile for when I start to boil. This worked so well that I added another RO bucket and another125 taps this year. The transport was probably the most important thing to me as I also have an endless supply of wood. If sure is nice to boil down in 8 hours what used to take me 16 or more.
The only downside is guests need to be a little more punctual on their visits as I'm not always there boiling as in the past.
Good Luck.