1" gas water pump potential

[Crooked Cellars Farm]

Question for the group. I just ran a new 1360' 1" transfer line from the back of my property to my sugar shed with roughly 2-3' of elevation change. We will have a 550 gal bulk tank way out back that will collect sap throughout the day as we work full time. My original plan with this 1" transfer line was to use my 1" gas powered water pump, from Harbor Freight, and "pushing" the sap to the shed. Looking up the volume of a 1" line 1360' long it says it will be roughly 55 gal to fill it. My question is regarding the fact that there will be 55 gal of sap left in the line after I've "pushed" the sap to the shed, causing a potential freeze up and therefore causing me to manually drain this line. I generally get 125-250 gal of sap/day. Do you think if I were to open a valve off the tank at the back of the property, allowing the "head pressure" in the tank to fill the 1" transfer line to the shack and use my 1" gas pump to "pull" the sap and then push that sap into another 550 gal elevated tank? And then do you think it "could" possibly drain that 1" line, at least to the point that my 1" transfer line would not be completely full and reduce the risk of a complete freeze up
Thanks in advance. This group has been a wealth of knowledge for this 1st generation sugarer. Thank you
Dale

[bill m]

I don't think you will be happy with the flow rate you will get with that 1"pipe. There will be a lot of friction loss in that distance. Why not have your pipe vertical about 10 feet then gravity flow back down to the Sugarhouse. That way you only have a small amount of sap left in the 10 foot section.

[Crooked Cellars Farm]

I agree that the flow rate will be low but it's what I had. My plan for next year was to elevate this line to do exactly what you are saying. But I've got to put in poles and run wire as this line is now in my field and sadly trees suitable to tie to are hard to come by up top. I'm also not as concerned with flow rate as much as simplicity and ease of use. I currently have a 6gpm pump, pumping the sap straight up roughly 25', yes 25', and then on a downhill slope roughly 200' to this tank in the field that I'm attempting to pump to the shed. This downhill slope does seem to create a bit of a syphon effect, which is ideal. The 6pm pump is also not the ideal, but again, I'm working with what I have and it is setup to automatically pump. I have a setup from Dave at Mountain Maple that does this for me.

[Crooked Cellars Farm]

I guess the real question is whether or not the pump could "pull" the last 55 gal left in the 1" transfer line, without losing its prime until after that last "slug" of sap is moved out? I will most likely run a small experiment to test with a small 30 gal tank I have and see what sort of success/or lack thereof I have.

[Ultimatetreehugger]

Do you have vacuum in your sugar house? Maybe it would be worth an experiment pulling your sap up with a vacuum pump/ releaser setup?

[Crooked Cellars Farm]

Unfortunately, no vacuum at the shack. Prior to this transfer line I had to take a tractor out back to pick up a 125 gal tank and bring it back to pump into my collection tank. This destroyed my yard. So this idea arose out of necessity to not destroy the tractor and my yard anymore. I wish I had more time today to run my experiment as it was 50+ degrees today. Starting tomorrow looks like rain switching to snow with the possibility of 8" of snow where we are in Ohio Tues.-Wed. Which means we will probably get a dusting of snow. Haha.

[whatever]

It should work for you. if the pump will start to pull the sap when there is enough in your tank for you to start up the pump it will continue to pump until it sucks air which should be when the suction line is empty. Not totally dry but empty enough that you shouldnt need to worry about freezing the line solid,

[TapTapTap]

You should prime the pump if you're sucking on a long dry line. You'll get better suction and less wear on the pump.

[Crooked Cellars Farm]

Thank you for your responses. The pump is not a self priming pump, so I'm hoping I can open a valve at the tank in the field and the "head pressure" "might" fill the line to the pump. And then it will be primed. Then pulling the sap until it gets to air and hoping that it pulls enough sap to not allow for a completely frozen transfer line overnight. I know these pumps are not ideal for this sort of application and are more useful to push sap but I've been pleasantly surprised by my Shurflo pumps and my Jabsco pump so thought I might try this way of using these gas pumps to see if it works. It would just be easier to not have to carry the pump way out back and "push" the sap and instead have it at the sugar shed so I can transfer sap, start my fire, and get things moving all at the same time. Future plans would include elevating this line and maybe a automatic transfer pump using sensors to turn on. All run into a future heated RO room next to the sugar shed. Thanks again, Dale

[bigtreemaple]

Would it be feasible to bury the line so it does not freeze?

[TapTapTap]

Would it be feasible to bury the line so it does not freeze?

Here's my advice on buried pipelines as a heavy construction contractor:

Burying is something I've never been able to justify for anything but road crossings - even though I have a fleet of excavation equipment at my disposal.

It would seem like you'd need to completely run at a grade that doesn't create any sags, unless you bury below the frost line which would be a lot of effort either way. Then you'd need to allow for drainage of the line or some form of protection from freezing as the line exits from the ground into the cold environment. The only time it would seem worth the effort to bury is crossing a field or open area where you don't want to impede traffic. Burying lines through the woods would probably mean lots of zigzags and at least some removal of trees or disturbing their root systems.

And then, what about where you encountered bedrock? On my sugarbush, even the "soil" above bedrock contains some very large boulders (3 cy plus size).

[heus]

My cousin has over 1000 feet of buried 1" transfer line across a field and it works well. He buried below the frost line. You just have to make sure you insulate where the pump enters and exits the ground. It starts at his pump house in the woods and ends in a tanker truck.

[maple flats]

A few years ago, I had a lease where the low end was 900' away from the road. I had a total drop of 15', but the first 400' only dropped 6". I had a 1.5" transfer line. With the times I could empty the tank and thus the TF line, I had no problem, BUT that was very rare. Most often there was sap left in the line. I ended up having frozen lines for days after a hard freeze. The woods warmed and flowed far sooner than my TF line which went thru a hemlock shaded valley on the way out to the road. I had 2 ball valves near the road, spaced by about 1' of pipe. When done pumping on any day forecast to freeze over night, I closed the uphill valve, drained the rest of the downhill pipe and valve, then I closed the downhill valve and opened the uphill valve. This protected the valves, because the only closed valve had no sap inside the ball. I fought it for 4 years, then I sold that lease (mostly because I lost my 3 good helpers when the graduated college) and told the buyer about the freezing issue. He said he would pump the sap up about 15', then on a steady slope down to the road. That may have remedied the issue. I've spoken with him many times since and he hasn't once mentioned a freeze up issue. He is also located just 1 mile from the lease and hauls in a 1200 gal tank behind a 120 HP 4x4 tractor, I was 9 miles away and hauled in 2 x 275 gal totes.
I suggest, even if you choose to use the 1" pump you have and the 1" TF line, find a way to get the line up high at the uphill tank. 10', 15 is better, then no sags from there to the outlet. Also, build a tower at the high end and have a ball valve at the high point so once the pumping is done, you can open the valve and drain the entire system. An empty pipe won't freeze!
As soon as you can see fit, increase both the pump and the TF line size. You would do well using a Honda WX15 and 1.5 or even 2" TF line.

[calvertbrothers]

Get yourself a diaphragm pump to push sap. I push sap 700ft with the elevation of 60ft. I use a gas powered diaphragm to pump my sap. It pumps the sap and it pumps air so it flushes the sap out of the line. I never had a problem.

[Crooked Cellars Farm]

Thanks for all the recent responses. I'm not a huge fan of burying this line, while it is feasible and am fairly proficient with a backhoe as I work for a utility company installing gas lines, I don't like the idea of not necessarily seeing what is going on. I also agree that it would require the need to follow grade even below the frost line which is roughly 36" deep here. Our plan I believe will be to elevate this line, possibly next year. Unfortunately, I've got to install poles to do this as the tree line is sparse for proper trees to side tie to. I will probably go as high as I can, 15-20'+. Currently, I do have a line elevated in the woods roughly 23-25' and I use a 6gpm Jabsco 12 volt pump to pump straight up and out to our field, roughly 200'+. Once this line hits its peak it is on a downhill slope to that tank, creating a syphon effect on the line. It works great. It doesn't pump real fast, but it does it all automatically. I hope to be able to do the same thing with this line and while it's not super efficient, it will be a starting point for us. I can always buy a bigger pump in the future as there is always room to improve. But for this year, I'm either gonna utilize my 1" gas pump to either push sap to the shed or possibly pull the sap with this same pump, after I prime the pump. I know it'll work to push, time will tell if it'll pull it. And again, not pulling vaccum, merely sucking sap out of a tank 1300'+ away from the shed. Thanks again for all the responses. This site is a wealth of knowledge. 6 yrs ago we had 10 taps. We now have over 400 with a goal of 600+ and over 10000' of tubing. Not bad for a first generation sugarer with absolutely 0 knowledge before starting this glorious "hobby." Happy Holidays and here's to hoping everyone has a great season!
Thanks again,
Dale

[eustis22]

Can someone tell me which port, horizontal, or vertical, corresponds to the "street tee"? I am supposed to prime my new 1 HP water pump thru the street tee and I am baffled.

[Crooked Cellars Farm]

If your asking which to fill through to prime the pump, it should be the vertical opening. It should have a cap or plug on it to fill through. At least mine does. I dont usually have to prime mine by pouring into that port if my tank has some head pressure to it. I open the valve at the tank and just crack the priming port and it will begin to fill up. Once it full I close the port and start the pump. Hope this helps. If not see if you could add a picture.
Dale

[maple flats]

Another point on my story a few posts earlier. (reply #13)
At times I was either too lazy or too tired to carry my 1.5" (WX15) pump up the 90' to the tank (and thru about 350' of bog that rarely froze). Thos times I hooked the WX15 pump to pull the sap. Now it was 900', and about 15' drop in elevation. When I did that rather than carry the pump to the tank, it often took 10-15 minutes before I got good flow and once I had good flow it took about 45 minutes to pull 560 gal of sap to the truck/trailer. The times I carried the pump in and pumped it only took about 25 minutes to pump. But it took 12 minutes to walk in and 10 to walk back out so the total time was near the same.
I often started the pump pulling sap and then walked in carrying gas to fuel the vacuum pump. I'd fuel the vacuum, do a quick check on the releaser and mainline flows then rush back out to get there before the sap overflowed the tanks (2 @ 275 gal. ea, filled to the tip top, plumbed together).

[Rselleck91]

As far as pump lines go it Doesn’t matter where it is in my operation I run 1.5” and that works great for me. Majority of my taps are rented and in the past have been rented. I had one bush with 450 taps that I could not drive a truck down to the tank. I had to pump it up 40’ with 600’ of line. This was back when I was less wise. I used a 2” pump at the bottom and a 1” at the top through a 1” line. Quite horrible.

[bmbmkr]

I'm using a 1" Generac gas pump from Menards and pumping 200-300 gallon through 800' of 3/4" From my collection tank it pumps almost straight up 35' or so elevation, then is on a 2% grade to the collection tank. This pump line is one of my old mainlines. My pump is rated for 30 gpm, which it does when I pump my other collection tank to my truck tank to haul to the sugar house. Pumping with 35' elevation and through 3/4" it's maybe 10-12 gpm. From the tank I pump it in to I have to pump again, another 20' elevation and 300' to my dairy tank in the sugar house. Same, 10-12 gpm. When the tank is empty and after a few minutes for the line to drin to the end tank, I unhook the pump and catch what comes back down the pumpline in a 5 gallon bucket- one at each tank and haul those to the sugar house. If you can get your pumpline high at the pushing end, and suspend it like mainline, you should be able to only have a few gallons drain back instead of the whole 55 gallons. This is my third year with this set up and it works. Saturday night I got out too late and the sap froze in my pumpline while I was pumping, it didn't thaw out til yesterday afternoon. Lesson learned there! Seems like nothin in sugarin is perfect, but there's no way I can haul sap out of where it is even with my 4x4 tractor, the "road" down into those woods is low & soft & sometimes even underwater when the creek comes out of the banks.